Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ashern Mar 16, 2010 19:35:11	Hey guys, recently been messing around with casters, and I've been looking for ways to increase my spell DCs, besides the regular feats.  I'm currently working with a Human Red Wizard Conjuration specialist GOD, so a quick question. If I pick up earth spell, and easy metamagic, am I reading it correctly that I can heighten a spell one level, but it is effectively heightened three levels?  So, for example, if I heightened cloudkill by one level, it would effectively be an eighth level spell, instead of a 5th level (and also have a CL bump from earth spell).  Just wanted to make sure I had this right. An full extension of this would be to Halrua Elder (for their metamagic cheapener), Incantrix, and easy metamagic on top of earth spell.  With all the above metamagic fun attached to heighten, I could heighten the same cloudkill one level, but while i could prepare it in a 6th level slot it would effectively be a tenth level spell? (5 levels heighten -1 Incantrix -1 Easy Metamagic -1 Halruaa Elder feature -1 earth spell).  Wanting to make sure my reading of all that is correct, and yes, I know that I would be burning around 7 feats to get all of that, but it would really bump my DCs through the roof(on top of adding CL bonuses)
#2 Senevri Mar 17, 2010 8:36:31	You should be correct - just remember to actually increase the actual slot by at least _one_ to avoid some potential holes in the wording.  Some DMs are known to get uppity about all that when they see it happen in actual game, though... using it to increase the DC is innocent enough, considering that Arcane Thesis is +2 DC, and spell enhancer ditto +2... So an arcane thesis cloudkill cast by a Master Specialist with an enhancer, would have +6 to it's DC already.
#3 j2.504 Mar 17, 2010 14:55:20	The only general question/comment I have on this is:  Wouldn't you still be limited (capped) by your capability to cast a heightened spell of x level?  In other words, if you weren't capable of casting 8th or 10th level spells in the first place, you won't be able to heighten a spell to that degree.  I think that's the thing that keeps this slightly in check.  I realize this was probably intended for an epic level character, but wanted to mention/question this for pre epic level use.
#4 ashern Mar 17, 2010 15:15:25	The way I understand it (and yes, I know it gets really wonky with the wording on heighten spell) is that you're preparing a spell of X level, but it has the effects as if it was a spell of a higher level.  So, in essence, you heighten the above cloudkill from fifth to sixth level for you, however because of the cheapeners this means that you've actually heightened it from fifth to eleventh with the heighten metamagic, you're just lowering the level spell slot you have to boost it to with various feats/ class abilities.  Personally, as long as you can cast the slot that it actually occupies I don't see a problem with the various heighten effects.  You've basically netted 5 feats, 11 class levels, and a magic item to raising your spell DCs, so if using it for that purpose, I don't really think this is unreasonable. However, if you were to say... tweak things a little with this by heightening every spell you could until it was effectively ninth level, and the casting spell engine to swap out for spells of equal level.... That would be broken.
#5 j2.504 Mar 17, 2010 15:34:55	I'm not 100% up-to-date with the workings of all of the other mechanics in the thread... so I'm referring mostly to the ones I understand better such as the heighten, and the metamagic reducers. I agree that the feat cost is a high price to pay, but I think the way heighten/spell casting works would cap it regardless, and prevents other abuses (what's good for the goose, is good for the gander sort of thing). Generally speaking I've always ruled the Heighten to be limited by: 1)  Having the spell slot capability in the first place, and 2) Limiting the capability of casting to your actual spell casting max capability.  If you couldn't cast 10th level spells, you couldn't cast 10th level spells with any trick.  Now, if you had 10th level slots through some early method (similar to precocious apprentice or something), then I'd say heighten would allow up to the max spell slot. I can't site the rule here off the top of my head, but it's not just the wording of the Heighten that is the only limiter.  It's mostly the general workings of the spell casting itself preventing you from casting spells of more power than you could otherwise cast.  If your wizard can't understand spells of X level, it can't be heightened that high regardless of reducers, etc. I am interested in coming to a resolution on this issue, as it affects a number of mechanics beyond this particular usage. For example - at lower levels, with the right combos, you could be hitting people with Fireballs or Acid Orbs, etc. with more dice of damage than you should be.
#6 Senevri Mar 17, 2010 16:41:54	Uh, no. Damage from fireballs and such is dependant on CASTER LEVEL, not the slot used. Not making much sense there, so ignoring... Nothing in the wording of Heighten spell in the SRD limits it's effects. earth spell: -If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on.  Wow, I'd forgotten the CL increase. If you restrict it like that, at... say, sixth level, you're saying that if I use heighten and earth spell exactly as intended, and heighten a 2nd level spell to a 3rd level slot, it _wouldn't_ be cast as a 4th level spell with +1 CL. If you don't want that, you really should just ban earth spell to start with.  Now, there are some curiosities with Heighten Spell -  A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as www.d20srd.org/images/linkbkg.png);background-position:0% 50%;" href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows">saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. So, only earth spell can get you 10th level spells, since that's explicitly how it works. We could heighten the spell by 20 slots, and it still would only be a 10th level spell.  Heighten Spell itself works fine with metamagic cheapeners, since it refers to spell level directly.  There is an issue with Earth Spell, however, since it's keyed to the slot spent, so it actually only has limited benefits-  you need to cast the spell from an actual slot to gain the + level and + CL. So, if a metamagic cheapened 7 levels heightened spell were cast from a slot two higher than the original... earth spell would only say it's three levels higher and grant +2 CL. Heightening itself would still pump it up to 9th level - you'd need to use an actual 9th level slot to get a 10th level spell with Earth spell.
#7 j2.504 Mar 17, 2010 17:18:48	Good point on the Fireball thing - bad example on my part. For the record, I'm not attempting to artificially limit anything.  It was my understanding that Heighten, etc. were limited in that way - not just by the text of the feat, but also by the spellcasting text.  I'm open to whatever the rules say/imply, and that's why I posed this as a question/comment rather than statement of fact. I am open to all input.  I was under the understanding that Heighten, Earth Spell, and others were limited by caster level and/or spell casting rules.  (I swear I've seen one sentence somewhere, but can't find it yet).  SRD doesn't have it so far, but SRD also leaves out a large portion of the PHB text on the subject also. Regarding Earth spell, what I was saying is you CAN increase a second level spell to 4th level power at the cost of a third level spell slot - IF... you were of sufficient level to cast 4th level spells in the first place.   Heighten works this way by nature "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." - prior to metamagic cost reducers, as slots kept it in check. However... I think I may be wrong on the original subject.  I'll research a bit more, but now that I'm circulating this around a bit more in my head, I'm pretty sure Caster level is not limited, and that text I'm looking for may not exist - which RAW would allow this to work.  Unless I can find that text I'm looking for, I'm probably incorrect.  (It may have been in a Sage article or something too).  I may have been confusing some things in the way practiced spellcaster worked with how general caster level & spell casting were capped. Here's another related question: Would Heighten plus a metamagic cost reducer allow for early entry into say Mystic Theurge, etc?  According to the direction of this thread, it appears that it would be possible.  (Assuming the metamagic cost reducer didn't have a minimum cost of one level).
#8 ashern Mar 17, 2010 20:59:50	Senevri- That actually makes sense, thanks for the explanation! Also, yeah.  Earth spell is generally considered one of the early entry tricks into mystic theurge.
#9 Senevri Mar 18, 2010 0:51:40	You were probably thinking of a feat in one of the completes which allowed applying metamagic feats to a spell at an alternate cost. Not sure if it was con damage, bard songs per day or turn attempts. At least one of those had an explicit cause regarding the ability to only enhance spells you could cast anyway, but that's not related at all to casting from a spell slot... Would Heighten plus a metamagic cost reducer allow for early entry into say Mystic Theurge, etc?  According to the direction of this thread, it appears that it would be possible.  (Assuming the metamagic cost reducer didn't have a minimum cost of one level). Well, heighten a cantrip to 2nd or 3rd level while cheapening the cost to +1 level --- yeah, it'd work in theory, I think. Heighten + easy metamagic for one-level dip mystic theurge access, then.  RAW anyway. Which doesn't have much weight in actual gameplay.
#10 ashern Mar 18, 2010 21:21:24	Oh wow, with that I could.... *scribble scribble* Yeah.  If you can talk your DM into that interpretation of the rules, you can probably talk him into letting you take at least one flaw (which this requires, baring some racial shenanigans I don't know about) Allrighty.  Grey Elf with 1 flaw (need two feats at level 1 and to be an elf/half-elf.  If there's a way to get that without flaws, then this is even more doable) Wizard(Heighten Spell, Easy Metamagic) Archivist Mystic Theurge(Endurance) Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge(Combat Casting) Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge Wild Runner(Mobility) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Dodge) Spelldancer Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Extend Spell) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Persist Spell) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Congratulations.  Assuming you can meet the skill reqs for the above (high int should help mitigate it somewhat), 18th level casting in one, 17th in the other.  Personally I'd pick Archivist for the 18th, since their spells include any divine, giving you more flexibility with your 9th level spell slots.  You can also drop a level of AH for spelldancer to make it 17/17 and gain evasion, if you really want to. Your saves are mediocre, your HP are better than a normal wizard, you can cast in medium armor that isn't metal, and you can pull most of the tricks that any archivist could dream of, except you can do it with wizard spells as well.  Somehow I should hope this can Gish decently...
#11 Senevri Mar 19, 2010 5:20:07	Easily hindered by the DM demanding that the spell appear on 2nd level on some spell list, though. Of course, in that case, a dip to dread necro/beguiler/warmage when you have versatile spellcaster fulfills that demand. I have doubts if a similar divine class exists.
#12 j2.504 Mar 19, 2010 16:46:47	I think I'm going to add this one to the early entry tricks I allow.  (Not just Easy Metamagic specifically, but the metamagic cost reducers in general combined with Heighten). This one may also be useful beyond just the typical MT application - by allowing early entry into other classes dependent on casting x level spells. Personally, I don't allow the Sanctum or Earth spell early entry tricks due to their obvious conditionality.  But I do allow the Illumian, and some of the Heighten plus feat (Heighten plus PA, etc.) tricks - and likely this one as well.  I'll look into more detail, but it seems doable.
#13 nikoir Mar 20, 2010 7:00:27	Allrighty.  Grey Elf with 1 flaw (need two feats at level 1 and to be an elf/half-elf.  If there's a way to get that without flaws, then this is even more doable) Wizard(Heighten Spell, Easy Metamagic) Archivist Mystic Theurge(Endurance) Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge(Combat Casting) Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge Wild Runner(Mobility) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Dodge) Spelldancer Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Extend Spell) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Persist Spell) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Please help me find underlined feat and prestige classes. Sorry for my english, I'm from Russia. (:
#14 eardatch Mar 20, 2010 11:02:42	Oh wow, with that I could.... *scribble scribble* Yeah.  If you can talk your DM into that interpretation of the rules, you can probably talk him into letting you take at least one flaw (which this requires, baring some racial shenanigans I don't know about) Allrighty.  Grey Elf with 1 flaw (need two feats at level 1 and to be an elf/half-elf.  If there's a way to get that without flaws, then this is even more doable) Wizard(Heighten Spell, Easy Metamagic) Archivist Mystic Theurge(Endurance) Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge(Combat Casting) Mystic Theurge Mystic Theurge Wild Runner(Mobility) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Dodge) Spelldancer Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Extend Spell) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant(Persist Spell) Arcane Heirophant Arcane Heirophant Congratulations.  Assuming you can meet the skill reqs for the above (high int should help mitigate it somewhat), 18th level casting in one, 17th in the other.  Personally I'd pick Archivist for the 18th, since their spells include any divine, giving you more flexibility with your 9th level spell slots.  You can also drop a level of AH for spelldancer to make it 17/17 and gain evasion, if you really want to. Your saves are mediocre, your HP are better than a normal wizard, you can cast in medium armor that isn't metal, and you can pull most of the tricks that any archivist could dream of, except you can do it with wizard spells as well.  Somehow I should hope this can Gish decently... Unfortunately you need 6 ranks in know(religion and arcana) for MT. Can't get in before 4th level ragardless of spell access. Edit: Also Wild Runner needs 8 ranks in survival and I don't think you have that in class in any of the preceding classes. Bamboo spirit folk get trackless step as a racial feature if I remember correctly though.