hellfire warlock melee build?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

HappyShinigami

Nov 25, 2012 23:02:15
I've been looking around to help a friend out with his build and it sounds really fun. What his intentions are is to make not a op class but a fun class, but not a useless class. Unfortunately for him they're are some big players her. I'm player the "nuker" build we also have a psion rogue and warrior. But this doesn't spell the end for him because warlocks aren't pathetic and we don't fight eachother. So any ways to make a good hellfire warlock to keep him strong and fun? I've looked around but they're are billions of builds on warlocks
#2

HappyShinigami

Nov 25, 2012 23:03:03
Oh side note its a level at first 32 bp and no house rules all books allowd and for 3.5
#3

HappyShinigami

Nov 25, 2012 23:03:28
Its a level one at first with 32 bp*
#4

draco1119

Nov 26, 2012 2:41:35
#1 trick: any of the Trickster classes out of Complete Scoundrel and/or Bloodlines from UA will increase the hellfire blast ability. One level of Binder (pact with Naberius) allows you to circumvent the ability damage.
#5

HappyShinigami

Nov 26, 2012 7:20:11
Man they sound soooo cool with melee now that I hear about they're powers. Maybe not op or broken but DAM teleporting and using a fire like sword and all that SO FLASHY I LOVE IT
#6

HappyShinigami

Nov 26, 2012 8:04:51
The bloodlines seem like they aren't really worth it for the amount you'd have to spend on them. When you cango human and gain a extra feat and 4 extra skill points.
#7

Slagger_the_Chuul

Nov 26, 2012 9:01:10
#1 trick: any of the Trickster classes out of Complete Scoundrel and/or Bloodlines from UA will increase the hellfire blast ability.

It's just the uncanny trickster that has advancement for any class feature, isn't it?
The bloodlines seem like they aren't really worth it for the amount you'd have to spend on them. When you cango human and gain a extra feat and 4 extra skill points.

Since they're added onto whatever race you already have, it's not like you have to miss out on the regular human benefits.  But what you really gain in this case (as draco indicated) is being able to count the bloodline levels when calculating any character ability based on class levels.

In this case, that allows you to count as having more than the usual limit of three class levels of hellfire warlock when calculating the power of a hellfire blast (which adds 2d6 damage per class level).
#8

Vincent_Dranoch

Nov 26, 2012 11:06:11
Take a look on my topic, it can help you:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
#9

Andarious-Rosethorn

Nov 26, 2012 11:28:54
Legacy Champion from Weapons of Legacy and Uncanny Trickster from Complete Scoundrel both advance any class. RAW even PRC's beyond their normal cap (advancing expressed, at each level, or at every X level abilities), this is arguably not RAI.

The bloodline thing is from Unearthed Arcana, and yes, you can be a human with a Greater Vampire Bloodline and get all the goodies from both, you effectively lose a bit less than 3 levels worth of XP and can choose when you lose it. The loss of HP can be a real problem especially in early levels so do it cautiously, most of your other losses will be made up for by the bloodline abilities.

Since you need 12 ranks in Knowledge the Planes to even become a Hellfire Warlock look into a build that gets the first level of Uncanny Trickster and or Legacy Champion before you enter Hellfire Warlock, also grab that Binder level early as well. Tempest built something like this one time.

Binder 1/Warlock 6/Uncanny Trickster 1/Legacy Champion 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/+5 Legacy Champion/+2 Uncanny Trickster/+1 Warlock

He used Illumian for the improved CL which ups your damage. Sigils were Vaul and Krau.

This build needed a 14 Int and focused mostly on Dex after that, Cha and Con coming nect in priority, it dumped Str and Wis.

Feats included  Martial Study (for Leading the Attack), Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Power Sigils, Goad, Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke), Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)

Effectively this is an AOO tank build that uses a big bad eldritch glaive for damage, and Beguiling Influence along with the Diplomacy as a class skill thing to be a party Face as well.

Best of luck.
 
#10

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 10:48:12
What woild be some feats to invest in?
#11

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 10:48:31
Would*
#12

Andarious-Rosethorn

Nov 29, 2012 11:09:08
Martial Study (for Leading the Attack), Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Power Sigils, Goad, Martial Study (Defensive Rebuke), Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)

Effectively this is an AOO tank build that uses a big bad eldritch glaive for damage, and Beguiling Influence along with the Diplomacy as a class skill thing to be a party Face as well.
 



In the Trickster/Champion Overdrive build the AOO tank loadout was used to provide close area combat control as well as more hits/turn with the gigantic 28d6 eldritch glaive.
#13

frost.fire

Nov 29, 2012 14:25:32
In a campaign I played in the bbeg was a gestalted warlock using all the tricks mentioned here with 2 major bloodlines and the presteige classes, and the other half of the build was an archivist the dm needless to say was quite evil
#14

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 19:11:56
Nub question, how does trickster and champion raise hellfire warlock?
#15

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 19:18:53
What did he pick when he gained martial study?
#16

draco1119

Nov 29, 2012 19:22:46
The first question has already been answered in this thread; it's the same as bloodlines. The second question has also already been answered. (Here's a hint)
#17

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 19:53:07
Wouldn't this be better? the Shape Soulmeld feat and binding the Strongheart Vest, an ability that reduces all ability damage I take by one
#18

Slagger_the_Chuul

Nov 29, 2012 19:54:01
Nub question, how does trickster and champion raise hellfire warlock?

To cover it again in brief (you can go back and read the details in other responses in this thread); they both can count for abilities based on class level, and the hellfire warlock's extra damage on a hellfire blast is +2d6 points per class level.

For example, three levels of uncanny trickster gives you two levels of class advancement (there's one "dead" level), so if you've got three levels of hellfire warlock as well, you can count as having five levels of hellfire warlock and deal an extra 10d6 points of damage with your hellfire blast, instead of 6d6 extra points.
#19

draco1119

Nov 29, 2012 20:18:03
Shinigami, as explained in another Hellfire thread within the last week, which was also yours, iirc, Strongheart Vest is considered supercheese, and its effectiveness is debated, but generally agreed to not work the way you want it to. Binding the Naberius vestige is perfectly legal, however.
#20

draco1119

Nov 29, 2012 20:20:57
Apologies are in order: that was a new question for you. I misremembered - it was Vincent Dragoch's thread. I'm sorry that I was short with you.
#21

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 20:31:36
So there is a martial feat called leading the attack?
#22

draco1119

Nov 29, 2012 20:47:40
*sigh*
Seriously, dood? It's spelled out for you in TWO of Andarious' posts. Martial Study is the feat; Leading the Attack is the name of the maneuver taken with the feat. Please try to keep up.
#23

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 20:54:12
The level thing does confuse me which is why I asked. Ublike my friend I don't understand mages to well and don't understand how all that raises it. For bloodlines lets say youre level 20 does that mean that the 20 levels of bloodlines gets added to spells or only the 3 that you had to spend exp for? Also I'm going major in efreeti since it's more fire oriented and fits a bit more. Is this a good choice
#24

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 20:54:59
Sorry just a tad bit new I will try
#25

HappyShinigami

Nov 29, 2012 20:55:21
Sorry just a tad bit new I will try
#26

draco1119

Nov 29, 2012 21:17:37
For bloodlines, you only get the "levels" you pay for. A major bloodline will end up giving you +3.
#27

HappyShinigami

Nov 30, 2012 0:36:39
I get it now :-) so if I had 1 trickster and 6 legacy that'd be 7 bonus with the 3 bloodline making a huge 10 just from them
#28

Slagger_the_Chuul

Nov 30, 2012 1:20:56
I get it now :-) so if I had 1 trickster and 6 legacy that'd be 7 bonus with the 3 bloodline making a huge 10 just from them

That's almost right, except that the very first level of uncanny trickster (and the 1st and 7th levels of the legacy champion) don't give any advancement for class features. 

Bloodlines don't have any "dead" levels like that, but they also don't give you any additional Hit Dice.
#29

draco1119

Nov 30, 2012 2:07:42
Bloodline levels only give you 3 things: the boosts in the tables, added max skill ranks, and added class-level based abilities. Check out my Hattori Hanzo build or Tempest's Ashardalon Reborn build for ideas on how to incorporate bloodline levels.
#30

HappyShinigami

Nov 30, 2012 8:34:07
What book are those maneuvers and srances in? Because I coukdnt find the maneuvers (could've over looked it) and why take trickster 1 than? Isn't there a better pick
#31

draco1119

Nov 30, 2012 9:26:17
Maneuvers & stances are all in ToB. The ones Tempest chose are Devoted Spirit & White Raven disciplines. I'm guessing the reason you take UT 1 is that there are fewer prereqs and/or that UT has class skills or something similar that helps with Legacy Champion prereqs.
#32

Tempest_Stormwind

Nov 30, 2012 11:35:06
Maneuvers & stances are all in ToB. The ones Tempest chose are Devoted Spirit & White Raven disciplines.


"ToB" is the Tome of Battle, Shinigami, if you're not up on our abbreviations.

I picked White Raven's Douse the Flames there not because the maneuver's useful at all (well, it is, just not for you) but rather because it gave Diplomacy as a class skill from level 1. You can use that with a binder's pact with Naberius (which you'll be taking to protect yourself as a hellfire warlock later anyway) and the warlock's Beguiling Influence invocation to become a pretty powerful public speaker and negotiator at a low level. You don't need to invest anything extra besides that in order to remain your party's spokesman even as you focus on your hellfire. And besides, the charismatic fiend is a staple of fiction (ever read Faust?)

The Devoted Spirit maneuvers are there for Thicket of Blades, a lynchpin of the "AoO Tank" style of play, which that particular glaivelock build uses in an unusual manner (normally, AoO tanks focus on getting AoOs in response to everything their opponents do, and spend those attacks to prevent their opponents from doing it. You just use those attacks as extra chances to smack with a nearly 30d6 glaive.) For more information on this style of play, I wrote an introduction to it here (click the spoiler block at the bottom). A good AoO tank is a fun and very useful way to play a melee warrior in 3.5, and it isn't entirely obvious to new players that such a character is even possible.

I'm guessing the reason you take UT 1 is that there are fewer prereqs and/or that UT has class skills or something similar that helps with Legacy Champion prereqs.


There's many reasons for this. It's not harder to qualify for, but it works best if you take UT first. Uncanny Trickster has all skills as class skills, and Legacy Champion's class skills consist of a small list of skills, plus any class skills from all of your other classes. Put 'em together and you get Factotum-grade skill lists, albeit with less Int synergy and fewer base skill points.

Also, taking Uncanny Trickster 1 and Legacy Champion 1 before you can qualify for your PrC (here, Hellfire, which requires 12 ranks in a specific skill - and Legacy Champion requires Character Level 10, so I think I botched the timing a bit here) allows you to enter your PrC right on schedule, and then continue to advance it afterwards without any delays (since you crossed those non-advancing levels on your way to the PrC). You finish Hellfire as early as possible, and then take UT 2, which advances Hellfire right away instead of having to wait a level while you take UT 1.

I openly admit that the build suggested there is subpar; it's just there as an example.

Finally, HappyShinigami, I would strongly suggest avoiding things like bloodlines or even hellfire warlock if you're this new to the game. Certain things require a degree of familiarity with the rules in order to work, or work well, and those are among them.
#33

Slagger_the_Chuul

Nov 30, 2012 20:17:42
There's many reasons for this. It's not harder to qualify for, but it works best if you take UT first. Uncanny Trickster has all skills as class skills, and Legacy Champion's class skills consist of a small list of skills, plus any class skills from all of your other classes. Put 'em together and you get Factotum-grade skill lists, albeit with less Int synergy and fewer base skill points.

It doesn't quite have all skills as class skills; it lacks Concentration, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge, Ride, Speak Language, Spellcraft, and Survival, in addition to any of the skills that aren't on the general list (like Autohypnosis).  The Uncanny Trickster has a good list, but not a complete one.

It's not really a case of needing the specific skills; the base warlock class gives you the class skills you need for the Hellfire Warlock, and the level in binder gives you some Knowledge (history) for the Legacy Champion.  It's certainly nice to have some extra skills available, but it's not an absolute requirement.
#34

Andarious-Rosethorn

Nov 30, 2012 21:27:08
It's not about needing the skills, it's about being able to expand the Legacy Champion list to be the same as the Uncanny Trickster list.
#35

HappyShinigami

Nov 30, 2012 23:17:23
Ty for all the advice. I understood nost of what you saod before you saidbit temp but thank you for breaking it down :-) just wanted to make sure these were the best choices and why people thought they were so I can back them up if i ever had to explain why I did this. Isntead of saying I got it from a article I now know :-) I assumed ut was just for skills. And I do like diplomacy it fits with yk chars attitude
#36

HappyShinigami

Nov 30, 2012 23:31:04
I will read you're article on AoO. I would switch but worlocks sounds extremely fun and so does this so I want to give it a try
#37

HappyShinigami

Dec 01, 2012 0:12:11
Wow I didn't know there were so many feats for AoO I understood AoO but dam, with those feats you can really be a badass tank
#38

HappyShinigami

Dec 01, 2012 1:27:35
Hey tempest, with that build youbdont have much health so how did you go about taking damage? I'm not completely sure I'll have a healer in my group.
#39

Andarious-Rosethorn

Dec 01, 2012 5:33:39
As a warlock you have one of the most valuable skills in the game, Use Magic Device, you can get your hands on, and readily use all sorts of magical wands, scrolls and staves, and be the healer when not busy stabbing people to death with eldritch power.
#40

HappyShinigami

Dec 01, 2012 9:34:23
Oh ya! I completely derped on that.
#41

HappyShinigami

Dec 01, 2012 9:35:55
As for equipment and invocations go what should I get?