Help!

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

cathedralsquares

May 15, 2009 7:47:24
Alright so the party dynamics of my group have changed again. There's 2 barbs and a Sorcerer left, I'm the odd-man out. I was thinking of playing a Crusader for their ability to 3.5 tank enemies, but then I realized that we don't have much that can do anything in the damage department. Should I continue with the Crusader or do you geniuses have a different build that I could try to get the job done with?

Unfortunately, my DM has already put the fail stamp on DMM Persist (otherwise I'd just be a Cleric) and tends to be hitting Druids really hard with a nerfbat.
#2

pithica

May 15, 2009 8:47:43
You have 2 barbarians and a sorcerer and damage is your group's problem????



Anyway. For damage output in the tank/melee department, I personally really like either Daring Outlaw or Swift Hunter builds.

A simple Human or SHHalfling Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 is going to get nearly every Swashie feature, 10d6 of sneak attack, and if you're smart and take the penetrating strike ACF from Dungeonscape, is going to be doing at least half that extra damage almost no matter what.

Likewise, something like a Human Scout 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 2/Ranger 14 with swift hunter is going to be solid damage output, with the equivalent of 17th level Skirmish/Favored enemy damage and a lot of class feature synergy for charging.

This isn't to disparage Crusader. I am well aware that they function more than adequately in the tank department, but BoNS isn't my own personal specialty, not even owning the book yet, so I can't recommend any builds using it from first hand experience.
#3

phaedrusxy

May 15, 2009 12:07:02
Books allowed? Level? I'm playing a multiclassed 7th level Ardent/Psiwarrior that can take an insane beating and not die, and also dish out decent damage. It also has excellent mobility and a few tricks up its sleeve, like being able to absorb the damage from an attack on an ally, or delay damage from an attack for 1 round.

The build is here, and I can explain it a bit more, if you're interested. Ardents are strange to build, but I think the class is overall quite versatile in what it can do and can be powerful. I would have done things a bit differently if I didn't want the planar travel capabilities (I think they will be quite important in the game that character is in).
#4

dr_rocktopus

May 15, 2009 13:32:48
I need to learn more about ardents, I think, and psionics in general. It seems like it's stuff worth knowing for optimization reasons.
#5

phaedrusxy

May 15, 2009 13:54:24
I really like psionics. Of the 6 PbPs I'm currently in, four of the characters are psychics of some flavor (two ardents, one psiwarrior, and a psion/thrallherd). Overall, they have fun and powerful abilities, but not as many over-the-top broken things as arcane and divine casters do.

They're easier to play than vancian casters, because they have a fixed number of powers known, but also have some weird options and tricks to expand on this. There is also a lot of synergy to be found from having multiple psionic characters in a group, which itself can be borderline broken if you push it (see the Metaconcert spoiler for an example ;) ). I certainly don't find them as confining as sorcerers, though all of the psionic classes resemble sorcerers more than wizards.

There are lots of ways to exploit the action economy to the fullest without totally breaking it, too.
#6

dr_rocktopus

May 15, 2009 13:58:57
I really like psionics. Of the 6 PbPs I'm currently in, four of the characters are psychics of some flavor (two ardents, one psiwarrior, and a psion/thrallherd). Overall, they have fun and powerful abilities, but not as many over-the-top broken things as arcane and divine casters do.

They're easier to play than vancian casters, because they have a fixed number of powers known, but also have some weird options and tricks to expand on this. There is also a lot of synergy to be found from having multiple psionic characters in a group, which itself can be borderline broken if you push it (see here for an example ;) ). I certainly don't find them as confining as sorcerers, though all of the psionic classes resemble sorcerers more than wizards.

There are lots of ways to exploit the action economy to the fullest without totally breaking it, too.

This sounds really really nice actually. I'll have to go read some handbooks myself!
#7

dawnmor

May 15, 2009 14:48:37
You cant go wrong with a cleric, right now you dont need a tank from what I am seeing. You need a healer, so I suggest.......

Bard, Cleric, Spirit shaman, Shaman (Oriental Adventures 3.0), druid, or something of that sort.

OR! you could always do a Crusader 1/Cleric 4/RKV 10/XXX 5?

Go with Dwarf would be the better thing to do.

Make sure you get Martial spirit and Crusader strike.
#8

cathedralsquares

May 15, 2009 18:48:17
Oh god, this is what happens when you type while being tired. I meant to put BARD not Barb. Sorry! Ugh, well, next time proof read three times. Two simply isn't enough.
#9

jopustopin

May 15, 2009 18:57:45
your group has two bards?! Plus a sorcerer? Can you throw up some levels for us to work with. Also what kind of character do you like to play? I have to say that a Crusader has everything you need and it sounds like even if you don't have the damage down, you can outlast most opponents.
#10

cathedralsquares

May 15, 2009 19:05:25
Well, due to time constraints and other things the 2nd campaign I'm in has 9 players, and this one only has 4. We're currently level 6, plan on going to 20th. Originally we had a Warforged Barbarian who was the de-facto tank, but he had to swap campaigns due to time constraints, and all the other plaers jumped ship to the omgwtf huge campaign which was originally the size of the first campaign in which I'm playing the now-unneeded Crusader.

Quite frustrating really.

Personally, I like to play martial oriented characters, I dislike spellcasters, and don't mind manifesters.
#11

dawnmor

May 15, 2009 19:22:20
ok, Go a Pixie swordsage 12/Master of Nine 5. LA buy off 1 pre epic.

Shadowblade would work. And your set.
#12

dandu

May 15, 2009 19:39:58
Two bards?

Have one pimp Inspire Courage and have the other go Dragonfire Inspiration.
#13

jopustopin

May 15, 2009 21:22:28
I know this will sound kinda silly on the optimization boards, but if you read the fluff of the warblade, any warblade worth his stuff would jump at the chance to be followed around by 2 bards.
#14

dandu

May 15, 2009 21:42:14
*Any* character should jump at the chance to be followed by two bards. Especially if they are two highly charismatic bisexual bards of the opposite sex from that of your character (or same sex as your character, if that's your thing)
#15

cathedralsquares

May 15, 2009 23:28:02
Two bards?

Have one pimp Inspire Courage and have the other go Dragonfire Inspiration.

They're doing that actually, but at this rate we won't live long enough to see the fruits of their labours.
#16

xakypshalorn

May 15, 2009 23:56:09
In that case, the more attacks your busting out, the more damage you'll be dealing. The two options I've got for you, are Monk, or Archer. Each has their own flaws of course, but the monk's average BAB is mitigated somewhat by the Inspire Courage.

At level 6 a decent build for this might be

Human Monk 2, Ranger 2, Fighter 2 (choose the monk style with the bonus feats that appeal to you and future goals the most, ranged combat style for the ranger)

Feats:

H- two weapon fighting
1- point blank shot
3- precise shot
4(ranger bonus)- rapid shot
5(fighter bonus)-Choice
6- Manyshot
6(fighter bonus)- improved rapidshot (taking off one of those -2's is a big deal when you have a bunch of them.)

Just something thrown together, I'm sure there are better options. But with an optimized Inspire Courage you should at least have +4 attack and damage, and +4d6 sonic (or at worst acid) damage per hit, so all those hits will really add up.

If you can get it, Shou Disciple from Unnapproachable East would be a good PrC to follow this with at some point (and at least one more monk level, to completely drop off the flurry penalties.)
#17

pithica

May 16, 2009 8:59:55
I'm going to repeat my suggestions.

A TWF Daring Outlaw is going to own as a tank in the above situation.

Likewise, a charging pounce swift hunter would own (probably even more if you can pull off leap attack goodness).

If you play without Multi-class XP penalties, the following is quite destructive...

Scout 3/Monk 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Arcane Hunter Shooting Star Spell Reflection Ranger 14

With Ascetic Hunter, sword of the arcane order, and Swift hunter, the above has Pounce, +18 BAB, High skills, 17th level Skirmish/Favored Enemy, the full TWF tree, 16th level monk unarmed strike, extra spells, evasion, spell reflection, and the ability to cast wizard spells (like Greater Mighty Wallop) in his ranger slots.

You could potentially be rolling around 9 attacks/rnd with base damage of ~6d8 + Strength + Favored Enemy damage + Mighty Fists/Greater Magic Fang + ~6d6 Skirmish (after items/favored enemy it should work on anything) + Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration.

If you tack on Hunters Eye, he could add 3d6 sneak attack, and if you tacked on Wraithstrike, they'd all be touch attacks. At that point, you could even through in power attack, and really put the hurt on sacrificing the now unneeded Greater Magic Fang/Inspire Courage bonuses to hit, which could get doubled by leap attack.

That's all off the top of my head, but I've built something similar before and know I can make it work.

If you want further help, though, you need to post the books you are allowed to use and any houserules you have.
#18

cathedralsquares

May 16, 2009 9:43:40
I completely forgot to post up the books last night. Pretty much any 3.5 book, no dragon or FR (DM thinks FR material is broken).

The only houserule is that we've given a Soulknife access to some of the powers on the Psywar list.
#19

pithica

May 16, 2009 10:41:07
In that case, sword of the arcane order and shooting star ranger variant are out, as they're both FR. I'd say just switch to mystic ranger, but that's dragon.

If you can get Able Learner or a feat to add UMD to your class list, you can still make it work and well with just:

Human Scout 3/Monk 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Arcane Hunter Spell Reflection Ranger 14 (Not in that order)

That get's you all of the above minus the wizard spells and extra spells and lowers your base damage to a mere 2d10, though, you can possibly still raise that with the right feats/equipment/buffs. It also get's you back your animal companion though, which is a feature I generally dislike losing.

The Build, At 6th would be...

Human Scout 1/AH Ranger 1/Monk 2/LT Barb 1/Ranger +1/

And from there go...

Scout +2/Ranger +12

Feats would be-

Able Learner (Human), Improved Init (1), Track (Ranger), Ascetic Hunter (3), Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Stunning Fist (Monk), Combat Reflexes (Monk), Improved Natural Attack-Unarmed Strike (6), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger)

and then followed up by

Endurance (Ranger), Swift Hunter (9), OPEN FEAT (12), Improved TWF (Ranger), OPEN FEAT (15), OPEN FEAT (18), Greater TWF (Ranger)

If you can get away with it, Extra Spell is a good feat to put Greater Mighty Wallop or Wraithstrike on your ranger list, but many DM's won't allow you to pick non-list spells with that feat.

The ACF's to take are:
Arcane Hunter (Ranger 1-Complete Mage)
Lion Totem (Barbarian 1-Complete Champion)
Whirling Frenzy (Barbarian 1-Unearthed Arcana but I'm only 50/50 on this, depends if your Sorcerer took haste as a spell or not)
Spell Reflection (Ranger 9-Complete Mage, you already have evasion from )

You could take another Improved Natural Attack in one of those open feats and get the 6d8 base damage back with your unarmed strikes, and I already mentioned Extra spell. Otherwise, I'd probably go (even though it isn't exactly optimal normally), with Power Attack and possibly Leap Attack (if I could get my jump modifier high enough). That'd let me sacrifice the IC bonus to hit for double that on damage, with a charge, which is pretty sweet. You could also look at Stand Still, if you can get reach for your natural attacks (enlarge person or polymorph from the sorcerer would work for this), to take advantage of the free Combat Reflexes feat to play a little battlefield control, which is a great combo with stunning fist. I'd probably take Stand Still before anything, and decide the other two based on the game.

That build starts out with Pounce and 1d6 of skirmish as well as 2 attacks/rnd and a +4 BAB at 6th, which is decent but not excellent. This can be more than made up for with all the bonuses from the bards, though. He's an okay/good tank throughout his career, with fairly high AC as long as he keeps moving and has a decent dex/wis, coupled with Evasion and Battlefield control (and his d8 hit dice), he should be rolling well. The build really comes into it's own at ~9th, and from there on, it's gravy train to damage town.
#20

phaedrusxy

May 16, 2009 12:47:03
I agree that with that group, a TWF focused build is probably a good way to go. Alternatively, something that gets a load of natural attacks could work, too. There is a thread just down the page focusing on that. It depends on which you'd prefer.
#21

ninjarabbit

May 16, 2009 14:33:46
I'll agree with the TWF daring outlaw build

human rogue3/swashbuckler3/lion-totem whirling-frenzy barbarian2/swashbuckler12

1-able learner, twf
3-improved initative
6-daring outlaw
9-improved twf
12-greater twf
15-extra rage
18-two weapon rend