Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Falcos Jan 21, 2015 1:34:44	Hi all! Me again, being crazy.   So this time I'm DMing, and I'm trying to help my players come up with a balanced set of classes, under some restrictions.   Due to the story, they're all starting as level 10s, and they must be arcane casters. (Or truenamers, or shadowcasters, should they wish, as being thematically "close enough")   Gestalt is permitted.   The party so far is:   One person who went for flavour over usefulness and went Barbarian, then Duskblade, then Rage Mage.   One person who went for a homebrewed Wavekeeper that's essentially the PrC converted into an Arcane Caster Base class.   One person who is the only one to take me up on gestalting so far, who went sorc//wiz, then Mage of the Arcane Order.   And the fourth person, who can't decide. They want to be pretty optimized, and I told them that they can be whatever arcane caster they like, with the following restrictions: They cannot be a divine caster, and they cannot be a Factotum.   So, here I am asking for help. Suggestions for ways to round out this party?     EDIT: They're looking at Wu Jen, as well as gestalting it with Warblade from ToB, but they're not sure if it'll be powerful enough. I've tried telling them that it won't matter, as the group's power level is all over the place anyway, but they're set on wanting to be strong.
#2 StevenO Jan 21, 2015 7:57:41	To "round out the party" I'm really thinking you need to start all over again.  Failing that and ignoring what follows suggest the Beguiler.   Perhaps the first issue could be what does a "balanced set of classes" really mean?  Looking at the three characters you have described I see a very weak character, what is likely a strong character, and what could easily turn out to be a game breaking character.  There is nothing balanced about those characters.     I assume you want to play a game with 10th-level as your starting point.  When you say everyone must be an arcane caster I assume that is how you are tying them together although you really don't say how much arcane casting they need to have.  Now to me saying "Gestalt is permitted" is just wrong; either everyone should be using it or no one should because using it opens up some very powerful combinations.  Part of me also wonders why you can't have divine casters as I'm sure some Cleric with the Magic domain or one of several other domains could easily fit in with a group of arcane casters; throw in gestalt options and I'm really at a loss.
#3 Falcos Jan 21, 2015 8:18:59	I originally wanted a balanced set, but two people decided to deliberately weaken themselves for flavour. Tenth is the starting level, at "from a school of arcane magic" is the tying factor for the characters. Gestalt is permitted, as opposed to compulsory, as I don't want to force people to use it, but it was originally designed around having it.   I didn't include divine casters for story reasons, essentially. Their gods/higher powers don't approve of the school, and wouldn't grant spells to anyone affiliated with it.   If I were to start over, what would you recommend as a unifying set of rules for the characters given these restrictions? I'm not averse to the idea, honestly.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 21, 2015 8:34:27	Falcos wrote:
#5 Falcos Jan 21, 2015 8:42:16	I'm very sorry about your coffee and laptop.   Okay, so which would you recommend? Making everybody go gestalt, or making nobody? I'm not huge on the idea of forcing anybody anything, but I'll listen to suggestions here.   I am familiar with the concept of tiers, as I said, this started as expecting everybody to be tier one or two, but then people starting going for fluff over crunch, which I really can't begrudge. For all my fumbling attempts at optimization, I am a roleplayer at heart.   The problem that remains is that two people in the party (the sorc//wiz and the as-yet-undecided) are interested in crunch.
#6 Andarious-Rosethorn Jan 21, 2015 9:39:04	Seems some of your players have trouble distinguishing fluff from crunch. Fact is you don't usually have to choose one over the other. A good character has both, sometimes this involves a bit of a refluff sure, but usually experienced players pick their fluff and then pick their crunch to emulate the fluff the way they want it to work.   Regarding Gestalt? All if you want a high powered game that is going to be controlled more by players cooperating than anything else, or none if you can't expect the players to stay on track without a bit of coaxing.
#7 StevenO Jan 21, 2015 10:49:44	With gestalt I believe you either need to have everyone use it or no one.  My choice would be no-one as it is easy but also very complex at the same time and prone to blowing up character power.  I guess I could see using it on a limited basis for a few levels where it could be used to cover a level adjustment for some characters or provide a few power ups for some other types but it would still be a strong option.   When the concept is that all the PCs emerge from some school for Arcane magic that can work but it is already putting a big burden on the game as not all arcane spellcasters would be anything alike.  What makes sense for a Wizard is rather pointless for a Beguiler; both are full arcane spellcasters but the Beguiler is a spontaneous caster who knows all the spells on her list while a Wizard needs to choose spells for his spellbook and then decide what subset of those to memorize on a given day.  Having "the gods" be against a school of arcane magic suggests a very strong rivalry between the two types of casters but I'm not sure if it will make sense; either there is going to be a war of some kind with one side mostly in hiding or I see the "god of magic" actually supporting this school as it is really how I might picture a "temple" devoted to it being operated.   Now with a party of four here are the roles I can easily see in your group of "arcane" spellcasters: 1.  A gish type character.  This is the fighter/mage from eariler editions and while it should have the raw spell capacity of a full caster it should have fighting skills that do not require magic. 2.  The skilled arcanist.  I know magic can make a lot of Rogue things useless but here is where I might include Bards, Beguilers, and some other character types who have more skill than your typical arcanist. 3.  A cleric or other divine spellcaster with ties to magic.  Note that three gestalt levels could leave you with Cleric3//Wizard3 and then piling levels of Mystic Theurge could break this character. 4.  Your basic arcane spellcaster.
#8 Luna_Trigger Jan 21, 2015 20:40:28	Falcos wrote:
#9 StevenO Jan 21, 2015 21:27:10	Luna_Trigger wrote:
#10 Slagger_the_Chuul Jan 21, 2015 22:48:31	I would assume a combination including cleric wouldn't apply anyway, since they're not allowed to be divine casters.  Or is it that they're only not allowed to be divine casters as their primary focus?
#11 Falcos Jan 23, 2015 0:28:34	I'll forward all this.   Shadowcaster is okay while Factotum is not because Shadowcaster is actually manipulating the Arcane, whereas the Factotum is emulating magic. If that makes sense.   And you're right, they can't be a divine caster in any capacity, not just as a primary class.