Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bonelock Mar 09, 2008 20:17:01	Looking for suggestions picking feats and allocating stats (do I put 18 in Con?) for a gnome "tank". PHB only . Max starting gold. Note: race is not optional; I have to be gnome. Playing him at a one-shot game. Starting him at 1st. Might be going as high as 4th. Thinking of being fighter or paladin. Here's my rolls: 18 11 13 11 14 10
#2 wih Mar 09, 2008 20:27:02	If you're wanting a Tank (absorbing damage), then putting the 18 into CON is your best bet. Taking your level in Barbarian will help boost your STR after your racial penalty. However, unless you put your 18 into STR, you won't be able to get Power Attack until level 4 at the least. If you're just wanting to Tank with PHB only, then putting the 18 into CON is obviously what you're after, but putting the 18 into STR is going to be more useful and efficient, and will give you 20 STR when in a rage - not bad for a gnome. Apart from being a tank, what else do you want the character to do? Are any house-rules in play?
#3 bonelock Mar 09, 2008 20:46:02	Thanks for the prompt reply. Hi no house rules, no. I *know* I will be fighting a lot of goblinoids, orcs and perhaps kobolds. I guess by tank I just meant a warrior as opposed to a gish. I was looking to make him as effective warrior as possible and still have a bit of "flair" maybe a shield basher, two weapon fighter or finesse fighter. Hmmm... maybe I should be a ranger with favoured enemy...
#4 chocolate_jesus Mar 09, 2008 21:12:36	Well, a level 4 core only tank doesn't really give you very many options. For a tank in the traditional sense of standing there and letting the baddies hit you instead of the squishy wizard, you'll do fine at these levels with that 18 in con, the best armor you can get, and a sword and board fighting style. Get dodge, combat expertise, and toughness (3 hp at levels 1-4 is actually pretty significant), and let the rest of your party deal the damage. Fighter will give you more feats to play around with and more flexibility, while paladin will give you better saves and some minor healing capabilities. You should also consider barbarian, which would give you more offensive power and HP but a significantly lower AC. However, playing this type of character, you might find that your enemies just ignore your crunchy little self and try to take out the soft, delicious spellcaster behind you (this really depends on your DM). If you think this will be the case, you could play a tripping based character, though it'd be best if you played as a human, as small sized gives you -4 to trip attempts. I'd play it like this: Human fighter 2 barbarian 2 1 fighter 1- EWP: spiked chain, Improved Trip, combat reflexes 2 fighter 2- Power Attack 3 barbarian 1- improved initiative 4 barbarian 2 Since you know you'll be fighting specific enemies, using ranger would be a good idea, but wouldn't work well with a tripper. Use 2 short swords. Gnome Ranger 2 Barbarian 2 1 ranger 1- weapon focus (short sword) 2 ranger 2- two weapon fighting 3 barbarian 1- improved initiative 4 barbarian 2
#5 bonelock Mar 10, 2008 7:09:20	Gnome Ranger 2 Barbarian 2 1 ranger 1- weapon focus (short sword) 2 ranger 2- two weapon fighting 3 barbarian 1- improved initiative 4 barbarian 2 I like this last build a lot... I guess what I am looking for is a balanced combo of survivability and damage dealing. I agree with taking TWF; two hits with favoured enemy would give me four extra points of damage. Would you pick two short swords (1d4) over gnome hooked hammer (1d6/1d4)? Since XP penalty for multi-classing won't be a problem what about adding a level of fighter for a bonus feat rather that a 2nd level of barb? Where to put my 18, in CON? What about starting out as barb since I'd get max HP of 12 + Con rather than max HP of 8 + CON. Phew! Thanks!
#6 logicninja Mar 10, 2008 7:20:19	Gnome is a bad move because you get -2 STR. At least you get +2 CON. The 18 has to go in STR. 18 STR, 14 CON + racial adjustments -> 16 STR, 16 CON, which is respectable. Mix Fighter and Barbarian; consider a level of Ranger and 6 or 7 levels of Horizon Walker. Two-Weapon Fighting is a TERRIBLE idea unless you're a Rogue, in core. It means your damage output will be insignificant. Go Greatsword and like it.
#7 bonelock Mar 10, 2008 7:24:32	Gnome is a bad move because you get -2 STR. At least you get +2 CON. The 18 has to go in STR. 18 STR, 14 CON + racial adjustments -> 16 STR, 16 CON, which is respectable. Mix Fighter and Barbarian; consider a level of Ranger and 6 or 7 levels of Horizon Walker. Two-Weapon Fighting is a TERRIBLE idea unless you're a Rogue, in core. It means your damage output will be insignificant. Go Greatsword and like it. Hi LN, if you read back to my first post I HAVE to go gnome (it's a specialized one shot game). The game will top out at 4th level. Thanks for feedback on TWF. So feats should be power attack, cleave etc.?
#8 logicninja Mar 10, 2008 7:37:06	Normally I'd suggest Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, but you're a gnome, so you get -4 on trip checks for being small. Bummer. Yeah, Power Attack and Cleave are both worthwhile (Cleave since it's core--GREAT cleave, mind you, is a trap). Add on Weapon Focus and even Weapon Specialization. For a low-level core fighter, you'll do fine; your options are pretty dang limited, so with Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialization, and a greatsword, you'll do decent damage at a decent attack bonus, and you'll get +1 AC/AB for being a gnome (so at least it isn't all bad). I actually suggest using a sword and shield for the first couple of levels, at least; you don't really need to Power Attack yet, and the +2 AC is important then.
#9 bonelock Mar 10, 2008 11:50:00	Normally I'd suggest Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, but you're a gnome, so you get -4 on trip checks for being small. Bummer. Yeah, Power Attack and Cleave are both worthwhile (Cleave since it's core--GREAT cleave, mind you, is a trap). Add on Weapon Focus and even Weapon Specialization. For a low-level core fighter, you'll do fine; your options are pretty dang limited, so with Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Specialization, and a greatsword, you'll do decent damage at a decent attack bonus, and you'll get +1 AC/AB for being a gnome (so at least it isn't all bad). I actually suggest using a sword and shield for the first couple of levels, at least; you don't really need to Power Attack yet, and the +2 AC is important then. Why don't u like Great Cleave? I think barb 2 and fighter 2 would be stronger than fighter 4. And fighter 3 doesn't give much. I might take my first level as barb for the max HP. With 16 con I'd have 15 HP and 18 HP if I took toughness. 3 HP at 1st are significant.
#10 chocolate_jesus Mar 10, 2008 15:24:21	TWF really is a trap, but its just too damn cool :D The reason I put ranger first in my previous build is to get TWF at level 2 instead of level 4, and yeah, getting a level of fighter instead of barbarian 2 is a good idea. Great cleave is among the most worthless feats in the game. To actually use it, you'd have to have 3 enemies in your threat range, kill the first, and kill the second with your first cleave attempt. The only time this is gonna happen is when you're a much higher level than your opponents (ie: not your game), in which case it doesn't matter that much since they don't pose any real threat to you. Leave the crowd killing to the sorcerer and his fireballs. I think barb 2 and fighter 2 would be stronger than fighter 4. Fighter 4 would give you weapon specialization, giving you a bonus to damage at all times, while taking one level of barbarian and ranger would give you a much greater bonus, but not all day long. Personally I'd go ftr2/barb1/rgr1.
#11 logicninja Mar 10, 2008 16:24:51	Why don't u like Great Cleave? I think barb 2 and fighter 2 would be stronger than fighter 4. And fighter 3 doesn't give much. I might take my first level as barb for the max HP. With 16 con I'd have 15 HP and 18 HP if I took toughness. 3 HP at 1st are significant. "i" don't like Great Cleave because it blows goats for pocket change. It never triggers. Even Cleave will only come into play once or twice during a fight; Great Cleave requires you to kill your (quite possibly undamaged!) Cleave target and then hit the next one, too. It happens so rarely it's not worth a feat. Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Barbarian +1 is indeed a good bet. Replacing the last level of Barbarian with Ranger 1 would get you Track, a favored enemy (by then, you'll know what you're fighting--probably kobolds, if it's a gnome one-shot), a boost to saves... Toughness is barely useful at level 1, and not at all after. Not worth your time. Improved Initiative is good if you have nothing else to take.
#12 bonelock Mar 19, 2008 18:18:30	What about a tower shield for this gnome warrior for his first two levels (over a heavy shield or two-handed wpn)? I start with max gold. So chainmail, tower shield, dex and size bonus gives me 21 AC.