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Help break my campaign

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ereth
Dec 30, 2008 1:13:02 So, my dm ruled that types override classed in terms of hit dice, skill points per level, saving throws, and pretty much everything else. How do I best abuse this?

I was thinking of going with a dragonwrought kobold as a wizard. I would get a d12 hit dice, the best bab, all good saves, and 6+int skill points because I would gain the dragon type. On top of this, I would get full wizard casting.

Any other suggestions? I'm not totally sold on the whole dragon thing.
#2
jenos
Dec 30, 2008 1:39:07 Do you mean that you do not get the BAB/Skills/HD of your class, but you get all your class abilities and replace everything with your types skills? Do you get a set of class skills from your type, or do you apply your skills gained from type to your class level skills?

First thing that comes to mind is a dragonwrought kobold gish, and its a gish as a wizard 20.

Otherwise you could try to nab the outsider type. You get 2 less HP per die(average), but you also net 2 more skills. You also get martial weapon proficiency, and some armor profs. Could go a Human and nab otherworldly, and from there you can make literally any build you want and make use of the massive skill points and monk saves. A human with outsider fun nets a whopping 9+int skills per level, makes it easy to get into those annoying high skill prcs, like unseen seer.
#3
ereth
Dec 30, 2008 1:46:57 Yes. So with the kobold, I would get the dragon type's 6+int skill points to use on the wizards skill list. I would also get all good saves as a dragon instead of only good will as a wizard, and a dragon's d12 hit die instead of the wizards d4.

Since I would likely be an evoker anyway, would it be worth it be a warmage instead of a wizard? At 8th level I can cast in medium armor, at ninth grab the feat to increase that to heavy. I could run into melee and start randomly throwing touch spells at people.
#4
DeAnno
Dec 30, 2008 1:56:42 A blaster Kobold gish with 6+I skills has no reason to go Wizard or Warmage. SORC!
#5
jenos
Dec 30, 2008 2:42:57 Given your high HP pool anyway, it won't be that troublesome to head into melee regardless - you can take more than a couple hits.

That being said, sorc is quite nice if you want to go blaster. Make sure to pick up draconic reservoir and grab the greater rite of passage at 6.

Another option entirely is, again, to go Human wizard with otherwordly. Make sure to describe yourself as wearing armor, and then you can nab proficiency with all martial weapons for an easy entry into spellsword(dip 1 level) to grab -10% asf. Lose 2 HP/level, gain 2 skills/level. Something to look at.

You could go a thuergic build.

Human Druid 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Thuerge 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Thuerge 2-6. Nets you 9th level divine spells at level 18, 9th level arcane spells at 20. Otherworldly at level 1(or dragonwrought kobold) and southern magician for early access into MT/AH. If you go by otherwordly, you get martial weapon proficiency, and you can ignore ASF on nonmetallic med/light armor via AH, in addition to other AH goodies. Only 1 level behind the curve for divine spells.

Can't do blasting as well, but definitely an option.
#6
ereth
Dec 30, 2008 2:58:08 What book is otherworldly from?

Also, besides gish builds, what other applications might this have? I can't honestly think of many others aside from possible early entry into prcs
#7
jenos
Dec 30, 2008 3:20:12 Otherwordly is from Player's Guide to Faerun, page 41. Its a regional feat that makes one a native outsider - meaning that you then get all the outsider goodies.

The reason I'm leaning toward outsider over dragon is that outsiders are a D8 HD, full BAB, monk saves, 8+int skill HD. That means for the cost of shifting down from d12 to d8(average 2 HP/HD) you get 2 more skills per level. The kicker here is that while dragons are only proficient with simple weapons and no armor, outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons and any armor it is decribed as wearing. That means you can describe your character as wearing armor during character creation, and you get the proficiency for it. Bit cheesy, but eh. That coupled with full BAB means that you make a decent fighter character alone.

The build I listed earlier makes use of the high BAB to get into AH earlier, as it requires +4 BAB and 8 skill ranks - normally takes some time to get in a druid/wizard build(I think one of the common builds takes something like 5 levels of MT before AH, wheras the new BAB allows only 1).

You could also build a martial character - because of the fact your BAB is your character level, it means you can safely multiclass into some nonfull BAB classes and pick up feats like robilars gambit at level 12 still. But other than that, the issue is that most prcs that require a BAB entrance tended to be for martial characters or gishes. The martial characters would get in fairly easily anyway, so gishes benefit from this.
#8
headofvecna
Dec 30, 2008 12:21:13 A Neraph (Planar Handbook) would be an interesting option. They're outsiders described as wearing leather, and having a +2 natural armor bonus, +0 LA. They also have an ability called Neraph Camoflage that denies opponents they charge a dex bonus. Going the arcane trickster route, you could stack touch spells, sneak attack, and charge bonuses. It might not be as powerful as an ancient dragonwrought kobold, but it would be cool and stylish.
#9
surreal
Dec 31, 2008 1:52:00 If you're mucking about in the Planar Handbook, I like the Bauriars. They're LA+1, but they have that handy SR 11+level which is pretty hard to come by naturally.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ereth Dec 30, 2008 1:13:02	So, my dm ruled that types override classed in terms of hit dice, skill points per level, saving throws, and pretty much everything else. How do I best abuse this? I was thinking of going with a dragonwrought kobold as a wizard. I would get a d12 hit dice, the best bab, all good saves, and 6+int skill points because I would gain the dragon type. On top of this, I would get full wizard casting. Any other suggestions? I'm not totally sold on the whole dragon thing.
#2 jenos Dec 30, 2008 1:39:07	Do you mean that you do not get the BAB/Skills/HD of your class, but you get all your class abilities and replace everything with your types skills? Do you get a set of class skills from your type, or do you apply your skills gained from type to your class level skills? First thing that comes to mind is a dragonwrought kobold gish, and its a gish as a wizard 20. Otherwise you could try to nab the outsider type. You get 2 less HP per die(average), but you also net 2 more skills. You also get martial weapon proficiency, and some armor profs. Could go a Human and nab otherworldly, and from there you can make literally any build you want and make use of the massive skill points and monk saves. A human with outsider fun nets a whopping 9+int skills per level, makes it easy to get into those annoying high skill prcs, like unseen seer.
#3 ereth Dec 30, 2008 1:46:57	Yes. So with the kobold, I would get the dragon type's 6+int skill points to use on the wizards skill list. I would also get all good saves as a dragon instead of only good will as a wizard, and a dragon's d12 hit die instead of the wizards d4. Since I would likely be an evoker anyway, would it be worth it be a warmage instead of a wizard? At 8th level I can cast in medium armor, at ninth grab the feat to increase that to heavy. I could run into melee and start randomly throwing touch spells at people.
#4 DeAnno Dec 30, 2008 1:56:42	A blaster Kobold gish with 6+I skills has no reason to go Wizard or Warmage. SORC!
#5 jenos Dec 30, 2008 2:42:57	Given your high HP pool anyway, it won't be that troublesome to head into melee regardless - you can take more than a couple hits. That being said, sorc is quite nice if you want to go blaster. Make sure to pick up draconic reservoir and grab the greater rite of passage at 6. Another option entirely is, again, to go Human wizard with otherwordly. Make sure to describe yourself as wearing armor, and then you can nab proficiency with all martial weapons for an easy entry into spellsword(dip 1 level) to grab -10% asf. Lose 2 HP/level, gain 2 skills/level. Something to look at. You could go a thuergic build. Human Druid 3/Wizard 1/Mystic Thuerge 1/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Thuerge 2-6. Nets you 9th level divine spells at level 18, 9th level arcane spells at 20. Otherworldly at level 1(or dragonwrought kobold) and southern magician for early access into MT/AH. If you go by otherwordly, you get martial weapon proficiency, and you can ignore ASF on nonmetallic med/light armor via AH, in addition to other AH goodies. Only 1 level behind the curve for divine spells. Can't do blasting as well, but definitely an option.
#6 ereth Dec 30, 2008 2:58:08	What book is otherworldly from? Also, besides gish builds, what other applications might this have? I can't honestly think of many others aside from possible early entry into prcs
#7 jenos Dec 30, 2008 3:20:12	Otherwordly is from Player's Guide to Faerun, page 41. Its a regional feat that makes one a native outsider - meaning that you then get all the outsider goodies. The reason I'm leaning toward outsider over dragon is that outsiders are a D8 HD, full BAB, monk saves, 8+int skill HD. That means for the cost of shifting down from d12 to d8(average 2 HP/HD) you get 2 more skills per level. The kicker here is that while dragons are only proficient with simple weapons and no armor, outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons and any armor it is decribed as wearing. That means you can describe your character as wearing armor during character creation, and you get the proficiency for it. Bit cheesy, but eh. That coupled with full BAB means that you make a decent fighter character alone. The build I listed earlier makes use of the high BAB to get into AH earlier, as it requires +4 BAB and 8 skill ranks - normally takes some time to get in a druid/wizard build(I think one of the common builds takes something like 5 levels of MT before AH, wheras the new BAB allows only 1). You could also build a martial character - because of the fact your BAB is your character level, it means you can safely multiclass into some nonfull BAB classes and pick up feats like robilars gambit at level 12 still. But other than that, the issue is that most prcs that require a BAB entrance tended to be for martial characters or gishes. The martial characters would get in fairly easily anyway, so gishes benefit from this.
#8 headofvecna Dec 30, 2008 12:21:13	A Neraph (Planar Handbook) would be an interesting option. They're outsiders described as wearing leather, and having a +2 natural armor bonus, +0 LA. They also have an ability called Neraph Camoflage that denies opponents they charge a dex bonus. Going the arcane trickster route, you could stack touch spells, sneak attack, and charge bonuses. It might not be as powerful as an ancient dragonwrought kobold, but it would be cool and stylish.
#9 surreal Dec 31, 2008 1:52:00	If you're mucking about in the Planar Handbook, I like the Bauriars. They're LA+1, but they have that handy SR 11+level which is pretty hard to come by naturally.