Help building a debuffing cohort? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Caker Sep 23, 2012 19:52:27	I am playing a sorcerer in a game currently, and want to take leadership because normally it is not allowed. I am essentially focused around save or die/suck/lose based spells. I want to build a cohort in such a way that it is essentially no save just die. Lowering their saves by an amount high enough that it just isn't possible to make it. Here is what I have so far: Unseelie Fey Human Hexblade 4(Dark Companion ACF) 32 Point Buy STR x CON x DEX x INT x WIS x CHA 21 (18 + 2 Unseelie Fey + 1 Level) 1. Dreadful Wrath H. Stench of the Dead 3. Evil Brand Breaking it down: Winter Chill(Unseelie Fey) -5 Dreadful Wrath -2 Stench of the Dead -2 Dark Companion -2 Curse -2 TOTAL = -13 to all saves So -13 is pretty good for level 6, but later on that won't exactly cut it. So where do I go from here? Also, what can I do so that he isn't completely useless in his actual combat abilities? All sources are on the table, only thing not allowed is flaws.
#2 StevenO Sep 23, 2012 19:59:30	Show You don't really want to hear this but ARE YOU CRAZY? You are already building a GM headache with a save or die character and now you want to give it support to make it even better. Making somebody's saves -13 with a 6th-level character isn't good enough for you? Assuming your Sorcerer has done things to boost his spell's DC you're making automatic hits. Perhaps the next hing you do is figure out how to boost the leader.
#3 Maat_Mons Sep 23, 2012 20:31:02	Winter chill applies that -5 penalty to every living non-fey within 5 feet. Your cohort will be spared, since the template changes his type to fey, but you and your allies may be in for some trouble if you can't get your positioning just right. Stench of the dead has a similar problem. The penalty is smaller, but it persists for 1d4 rounds after you accidentally come too close to your cohort. You can find more save-lowering abilities here, but most of them don't distinguish between enemies and allies. One more idea is Oerthblood (Dragon 351, p45).
#4 draco1119 Sep 23, 2012 21:21:01	Check out Tempest's character (Hadyn) in this thread. It's pretty much exactly what you want your cohort to be, it sounds like.
#5 Caker Sep 23, 2012 21:59:04	At this point I am thinking hexblade 8/binder 8/x2. That would get me another -2 from the curse, and a further -4 from binding Chupoclops and Focalor. Along with a +6 item on cha and a +5 tome to bring my charisma to 36 with all points going into it, ending up with another -8 from the unseelie fey ability. So -27 to all saves in total. Assuming I can get my sorcerer DCs to a reasonable level as well all of my spells should essentially be no save.
#6 Andarious-Rosethorn Sep 24, 2012 10:04:59	Don't really need the binder levels. Read the Hadyn link.
#7 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 24, 2012 11:02:05	Binder levels really help, though. The only reason Hadyn works the way he does is because RT allowed flaws in that game; there'd be no real benefit to spend two feats for a single one of Focalor's abilities without them. (Backstory: Hadyn actually was my third choice of character for that game. The first was a playtest of a modified Sublime Marshal (the original is still lurking around the interwebs), but that would have overlapped with Andarious' character. My second was a binder / Knight of the Sacred Seal that used bloodline levels to accelerate vestige access, and emphasized debuffs with a secondary focus on melee. I opted for the straight-up hexblade you see because I wanted the challenge, and it'd synergize slightly better with Andarious' heavy Inspire Courage (due to full base attack -> multiple attacks + Power Attack).) Chupoclops is much better than Focalor (especially due to his other benefits - he's a great vestige for Knight of the Sacred Seal), but you can't reach him with only two binder levels. Although everything related to vestiges keys off of EBL instead of binder class level, Chupoclops is level 6, so you need an EBL of 12 to bind him, and EBL doesn't advance the way IL does. Best you can get without bloodlines is, I think, 4 (2 class + 2 from the Improved Binding feat), so you're eight short. I second Maat's warnings: Watch for friend-or-foe targeting on your debuffs. Many of the ones intended for monsters (including the unseelie fey) will affect your allies as well. Don't worry if you can't get double-digit save penalties - honestly, that's overkill. (As others have said, I'm playing a debuffer right now, and the biggest penalty I can muster on a target is about -10, and that requires a significant dedication of resources and involves effects with Mind-Affecting and/or Fear descriptors. That said, it is more than enough (our spellcasters, if you check the thread out, both have high key ability scores and minor abilities to boost DC by about 1-3 or so (Wild Surge and Psycarnum Infusion + Heighten Spell, respectively), and I can count the number of times targets have saved against powers aimed at foes I debuff on one hand.). Honestly, my best debuff isn't those effects at all - it's the Never Outnumbered skill trick + the Imperious Command feat, which recently got meaner thanks to Fearsome armor. Anything not immune to fear that I can reach tends to not be able to act for a little while, and that's a bigger benefit than hosing their saving throws or AC.)
#8 The_Fred Sep 24, 2012 17:33:39	Binder 3 is enough for Focalor, or you could use the feats. Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4 works nicely. Using feats rather than Binding you can get a -6 at L7 with super Cha synergy to saves and full BAB. That's pretty neat. Meanwhile, you could be a Troglodyte for an alternative easy stench. Make your save in the morning and/or wear nose pegs. A Ghast would do, too, but is harder to work with. That link pretty much covers everything, mind.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Caker

Sep 23, 2012 19:52:27

I am playing a sorcerer in a game currently, and want to take leadership because normally it is not allowed. I am essentially focused around save or die/suck/lose based spells. I want to build a cohort in such a way that it is essentially no save just die. Lowering their saves by an amount high enough that it just isn't possible to make it. Here is what I have so far:

Unseelie Fey Human Hexblade 4(Dark Companion ACF)
32 Point Buy

STR x
CON x
DEX x
INT x
WIS x
CHA 21 (18 + 2 Unseelie Fey + 1 Level)

1. Dreadful Wrath
H. Stench of the Dead
3. Evil Brand

Breaking it down:
Winter Chill(Unseelie Fey) -5
Dreadful Wrath -2
Stench of the Dead -2
Dark Companion -2
Curse -2

TOTAL = -13 to all saves

So -13 is pretty good for level 6, but later on that won't exactly cut it. So where do I go from here? Also, what can I do so that he isn't completely useless in his actual combat abilities? All sources are on the table, only thing not allowed is flaws.

StevenO

Sep 23, 2012 19:59:30

Show

You don't really want to hear this but ARE YOU CRAZY? You are already building a GM headache with a save or die character and now you want to give it support to make it even better. Making somebody's saves -13 with a 6th-level character isn't good enough for you? Assuming your Sorcerer has done things to boost his spell's DC you're making automatic hits. Perhaps the next hing you do is figure out how to boost the leader.

Maat_Mons

Sep 23, 2012 20:31:02

Winter chill applies that -5 penalty to every living non-fey within 5 feet. Your cohort will be spared, since the template changes his type to fey, but you and your allies may be in for some trouble if you can't get your positioning just right.

Stench of the dead has a similar problem. The penalty is smaller, but it persists for 1d4 rounds after you accidentally come too close to your cohort.

You can find more save-lowering abilities here, but most of them don't distinguish between enemies and allies.

One more idea is Oerthblood (Dragon 351, p45).

draco1119

Sep 23, 2012 21:21:01

Check out Tempest's character (Hadyn) in this thread. It's pretty much exactly what you want your cohort to be, it sounds like.

Caker

Sep 23, 2012 21:59:04

At this point I am thinking hexblade 8/binder 8/x2. That would get me another -2 from the curse, and a further -4 from binding Chupoclops and Focalor. Along with a +6 item on cha and a +5 tome to bring my charisma to 36 with all points going into it, ending up with another -8 from the unseelie fey ability. So -27 to all saves in total. Assuming I can get my sorcerer DCs to a reasonable level as well all of my spells should essentially be no save.

Andarious-Rosethorn

Sep 24, 2012 10:04:59

Don't really need the binder levels. Read the Hadyn link.

Tempest_Stormwind

Sep 24, 2012 11:02:05

Binder levels really help, though. The only reason Hadyn works the way he does is because RT allowed flaws in that game; there'd be no real benefit to spend two feats for a single one of Focalor's abilities without them. (Backstory: Hadyn actually was my third choice of character for that game. The first was a playtest of a modified Sublime Marshal (the original is still lurking around the interwebs), but that would have overlapped with Andarious' character. My second was a binder / Knight of the Sacred Seal that used bloodline levels to accelerate vestige access, and emphasized debuffs with a secondary focus on melee. I opted for the straight-up hexblade you see because I wanted the challenge, and it'd synergize slightly better with Andarious' heavy Inspire Courage (due to full base attack -> multiple attacks + Power Attack).)

Chupoclops is much better than Focalor (especially due to his other benefits - he's a great vestige for Knight of the Sacred Seal), but you can't reach him with only two binder levels. Although everything related to vestiges keys off of EBL instead of binder class level, Chupoclops is level 6, so you need an EBL of 12 to bind him, and EBL doesn't advance the way IL does. Best you can get without bloodlines is, I think, 4 (2 class + 2 from the Improved Binding feat), so you're eight short.

I second Maat's warnings: Watch for friend-or-foe targeting on your debuffs. Many of the ones intended for monsters (including the unseelie fey) will affect your allies as well. Don't worry if you can't get double-digit save penalties - honestly, that's overkill.

(As others have said, I'm playing a debuffer right now, and the biggest penalty I can muster on a target is about -10, and that requires a significant dedication of resources and involves effects with Mind-Affecting and/or Fear descriptors. That said, it is more than enough (our spellcasters, if you check the thread out, both have high key ability scores and minor abilities to boost DC by about 1-3 or so (Wild Surge and Psycarnum Infusion + Heighten Spell, respectively), and I can count the number of times targets have saved against powers aimed at foes I debuff on one hand.). Honestly, my best debuff isn't those effects at all - it's the Never Outnumbered skill trick + the Imperious Command feat, which recently got meaner thanks to Fearsome armor. Anything not immune to fear that I can reach tends to not be able to act for a little while, and that's a bigger benefit than hosing their saving throws or AC.)

The_Fred

Sep 24, 2012 17:33:39

Binder 3 is enough for Focalor, or you could use the feats.
Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4 works nicely. Using feats rather than Binding you can get a -6 at L7 with super Cha synergy to saves and full BAB. That's pretty neat.

Meanwhile, you could be a Troglodyte for an alternative easy stench. Make your save in the morning and/or wear nose pegs. A Ghast would do, too, but is harder to work with.

That link pretty much covers everything, mind.