Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 karmme Mar 15, 2009 8:58:58	I'm going to be playing in a solo campaign starting at level 9 in a homebrew setting. Pretty much anything goes as far as character options (without getting really broken). The campaign will be largely RP centric and the DM has explicitly told me that combat will not yield a lot of XP. I found this out when I suggested a conjurer with a charisma of 8 . So I'm contemplating a paladin build, but I've never played one and I'm not really sure where to start. I know that they suffer from MAD. Most combat will be avoidable but I want to avoid anything with a really low str since the DM told me that a lot of combat will involve grappling. Starting ECL = 9 34 point buy Full hp at 1st level + 1/2 at each additional level Lose a feat to get NPC cohort as if charisma was 6 higher than it is (don't know if this will apply if I start with an 18 in charisma. I will add ideas that I have as they occur to me and hopefully post a build for critique some time today or tomorrow but my break at work is about to end and I have to go. I appreciate any responses or suggestions, even if it's to tell me to go halfling myself (thanks for the bump). --------------------------------CURRENT BUILD-------------------------------------------------- Name: Race: Human Class: Marshall 2 /Paladin 2/Binder 5/Knight of the Sacred Seal 3 Stats: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Wis 10, Int 10, Cha 20(4,8,12) HP: 81(M16+P14+B30+K21) Skills: Bluff: 5 Diplomacy: 15 ranks Intimidate: 15 ranks Knowledge (Religion): 5 ranks Ride: 6 ranks Sense Motive: 5 ranks Knowledge (Arcana): 5 Ranks Knowledge (the Planes): 5 Ranks (61 total)
#2 chibishuffle Mar 15, 2009 9:21:30	I'd recommend using marshal as base class. It can be found in the minis handbook. It has a good mix of combat and non combat with its cleric saves and BAB, auras and good skill list. My first thoughts are Paladin 2/marshal 7 There is definite charisma synergy here. I'd use the cityscape web enhancement to swap marshal's ride skill for tumble and take the feat combat pinnache out of PHB2. My thoughts on your cohort buddy make him a rogue and take the marshal aura master of tactics its seems to gel nicely. Just my two cents.
#3 ozgun Mar 15, 2009 10:23:00	Search for Jumplomancer. Has the potential.
#4 phaedrusxy Mar 15, 2009 11:48:31	Binder 1 can get you Naberius, which lets you take 10 on diplomacy (and bluff), and use diplomacy as a standard action with no penalty. It is a freakin' fantastic dip for a diplomancer. There are also some special options for Palladins that go into the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC, I think. This is all from the Tome of Magic. A Binder 1 with Skill Focus: Diplomacy, and a MW tool can hit DC 20+ as a standard action without even rolling, which converts Hostile creatures to Unfriendly, likely allowing you to avoid many fights, as long as the enemy can understand your speech. And that's just at level 1... Put a level in Marshal, and you get Cha to diplomacy again, and can pick up any feat you qualify for as a bonus.
#5 hijaxx Mar 15, 2009 12:00:16	hmmm... diplomacy generally IS really broke. I mean, its not even a damn opposed roll. once your modifier is friggin' 20, you can make indifferent (most) people helpful. once you hit 40, you can make the helpful guys fanatic. I'd say that is "too broken" but thats if you optimize it. as a note on the above build: this is fun: once they're unfriendly, they wont just automatically attack you. then you can make them indifferent, then friendly, then helpful, with only a standard action per step. thats 24 seconds to make a hostile creature bent on killing you into your best friend. Wheee!
#6 phaedrusxy Mar 15, 2009 12:11:54	Yeah, I wasn't even considering letting multiple uses "stack". Even just using it to defuse encounters is quite powerful enough. It's almost like a Charm Person with no save, that you can use at will. I actually have a character that's just starting out in a PbP based on that. He's a gestalt binder1//ranger 1. I already talked to the DM, and he said it will generally work, but you're not going to be able to talk a hungry troll out of eating you, or anything. At best, you'll get him to stop and chat with you until he gets bored, or his belly growls. I think in general, that's probably the best kind of results you're going to get in real games, and in some cases the DM will probably just not let Diplomacy work at all. So I'd be wary of really going crazy optimizing it, because the likelyhood of it all being wasted character resources, or of it just ******* off your DM, is probably pretty high. That's why I made sure and talked to the DM before I invested much in it for my character.
#7 surreal Mar 15, 2009 12:28:59	A couple substitution levels to consider: Half-elf bard (Races of Destiny) - your basic start for diplomancer builds Changeling rogue (Races of Eberron) - a nice addition to certain social skills
#8 karmme Mar 15, 2009 14:33:35	I'm reading up on binders now, that sure looks interesting. Also, the DM informed me that he would allow Fax Celestis' paladin fix (perhaps to steer me away from multiclassing), it looks like it has some interesting abilities through the mantle of faith, it also looks like it gets much better if you don't multiclass. I haven't had a chance to look through all of the mantles but some of them look pretty amazing. http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Paladin#Specifications
#9 Kerrus Mar 15, 2009 15:10:47	Fax does good work, in my experience. I've noticed particularly that the revised classes don't petere out like most of the PHB ones do- they actually reward you if you don't multiclass, which I think is a great encouragement to stick to one class.
#10 karmme Mar 15, 2009 16:15:17	I'm liking the paladin/Marshall idea as a great general and negotiator. The only problem is with only 1 ally most of the time, I feel like his aura abilities might be wasted. Edit: Paladin 2/Marshall 2 seem like good breaking off points But where to go from there? Double Edit: I really like the idea of a Binder with Naberius, but I feel like a paladin would have trouble associating with such a binding. It could be that it's not actually evil but a three-headed dog just feels demonic, because it's based off of Cerberus. Maybe it just seems like paladins wouldn't really associate with any bindings at all. They're too diety focused.
#11 phaedrusxy Mar 15, 2009 16:48:15	There is a lot of stuff in the Tome of Magic about how binders are thought to be heretics by some churches, and are hunted down for their practices. But certainly not all binders are evil, and like I said, the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC even allows palladins to multiclass freely with it. You might look at that for how the two classes might be used together. The Malconvoker might be a useful example of how a good character might manipulate evil beings to do his bidding, also (though I don't think Naberius has an alignment given, or even directly alluded to). There is also the option of reflavoring too, if your DM is amenable to it. And finally... palladins don't have to be such sticks in the mud as they are often played. I've heard convincing arguments that batman could be considered a palladin. There are other PrCs which delve into the "darker" side of palladin-hood, also.
#12 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 15, 2009 17:35:58	Rather than go with the Paladin idea, I think something on the other end might be called for. Try doing a specialist wizard enchanter/enchantress with extra spells from focused specialist, swapping to Master Specialist at the first moment, the topping that off with one (and only one) level of Disciple of Asmodeus from the Book of Vile Darkness and the Mask of Gentility feat from Exemplars of Evil. If it could be worked in, one (and only one) level of Mindbender would also be useful. That gives you full caster progression, lots of diplomacy bonuses, and the ability to communicate telepathically with your network of charmed servants and spies which round out your retinue of loyal retainers from the Leadership feat.
#13 phaedrusxy Mar 15, 2009 18:05:36	Rather than go with the Paladin idea, I think something on the other end might be called for. Try doing a specialist wizard enchanter/enchantress with extra spells from focused specialist, swapping to Master Specialist at the first moment, the topping that off with one (and only one) level of Disciple of Asmodeus from the Book of Vile Darkness and the Mask of Gentility feat from Exemplars of Evil. If it could be worked in, one (and only one) level of Mindbender would also be useful. That gives you full caster progression, lots of diplomacy bonuses, and the ability to communicate telepathically with your network of charmed servants and spies which round out your retinue of loyal retainers from the Leadership feat. This would work very well with the Binder idea. Anima Mage is a great duel progression casting/binding class, and only requires one level of Binder to enter. :D
#14 karmme Mar 15, 2009 18:39:17	Wow, Knight of the sacred seal actually looks really cool too. So, starting at 12th level I could go Marshall 2/Paladin 2/Binder 5/Knight of the Sacred Seal 3 I'm still having some trouble figuring out how that character would do but... Marshal: 1 Minor/1 Major Aura Major Aura +1 Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Paladin (Fax): Lay on hands Aura Divine Grace 1 Mantle of Faith (?which one?) Binder: (loses 2 BAB) Maximum Vestige Level 3 Soul Binding (1 Vestige) Pact Augmentation (2 Abilities) Suppress Sign Bonus Feat Soul Guardian (immune to fear) Knight of the Sacred Seal Aligned Strike Patron Vestige Vestige's Protection Vestige's Protection aura +3 Binder levels I don't know, it certainly seems like a cool concept, it will be fun to write a backstory for... Any idea how it will play? Also what race and stat distribution would you reccomend for a character like this? 34 point buy
#15 phaedrusxy Mar 15, 2009 21:03:13	You definitely want Improved Binding. Expel Vestige is nice, also, as you'll be able to bind two. Take a look at the Binder Handbook for more ideas on how to play it.
#16 karmme Mar 15, 2009 21:54:57	1. Am I screwing myself by taking 4 levels in non EBL advancing classes? Looks like I'll get level 7 bindings max that way, and this campaign could actually make it to twenty and beyond since I'm starting at 12. 2. I really have to read the whole chapter on pact magic so I understand it better. 3. As for stats... Str 14 Dex 13 Con 14 Wis 10 Int 10 Cha 17 (20 Levels) I think it would be worth it to go with a race that boosts cha, but +LA could hurt. As for the mantle of faith I'm looking at Valor (immune to fear effects/ +1 against fear to allies) Alliance (summon mount 4hrs/day) Conviction (Attacks Bludgeoning/Slashing/Piercing for overcoming DR) Honor (Charisma bonus to melee attack rolls) - Can't feint, trip or gain benefits of flanking Feats: What weapon focus should I take?
#17 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 15, 2009 22:47:25	As much as many of the Binder things are sexy in that they give you extra powerz, they have a problem from the RP end in that you get all sorts of funky teeth in your hair and whatnot that would be negative circumstance penalties to most Diplomacy situations. Diplomacy is a matter of being bland and unremarkable. One of the most successful diplomats I had in a game was a tall white-blonde illusionist, who either dressed up as a frost mage (he wasn't, but he looked the part) or an incompetent low-level barbarian (who couldn't swing an axe worth a damn, but his screaming and gesticulations covered most illusion casting quite nicely). Kewl Powerz are all well and good, but the main trick of diplomacy is stealth and subtlety. People expect to be charmed by the bard, so bards consequently make crappy diplomats. The wicked enchantress who dresses up as an illiterate milkmaid from the provinces is going to do a hell of a lot better.
#18 karmme Mar 15, 2009 23:40:08	Point well taken, also, DM is unfamiliar with tome of magic so I'm going to seek out a new character. Maybe a gnome sorcerer, a favored soul, or something else. Glad I put in the work on this build anyway.
#19 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 0:01:08	Naberius (the diplomonster vestige) only makes your voice sound gravelly. No weird teeth, etc. Also, with the 2nd level of binder, you can supress all that crap, anyway.
#20 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 16, 2009 0:37:30	I guess there is that. But do any of the other vestiges help you with diplomacy? I'd say what you want is lots of Charm spells, lots of bonuses to Diplomacy, and a good spy network. A level each of Disciple of Asmodeus and Mindbender gives you that, plus the ability to know some useful secret once per week (nothing like having the devil help you with insider trading) and the ability to have telepathy to talk to your minions. If you really want to be sick, you use the Mindbender telepathy as a way to qualify for the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness, which gives you an automatic head-up display for the intelligence rating and creature type of all the characters around you--invaluable information for diplomacy.
#21 karmme Mar 16, 2009 0:41:20	I don't suppose you have a link to a potential build do you? Focused Specialist Wizard 5/Master Specialist 3/Mindbender 1/Disciple of Azmodeus 1/what else?
#22 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 16, 2009 4:17:15	Human 1st level feats: Disciple of Darkness; Spell Focus: Enchantment 3rd level feat Evil Brand 6th level feat Leadership 9th level feat Mask of Gentility 12 level feat Mindsight Specialist Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4/Mindbender 1/Disciple of Asmodeus 1 Continue Master Specialist to 10. If you want to take Specialist Wizard up to 5, have level 5 come when you hit character level 12 so you can take Forge Ring, because who with this build wouldn’t want to be Sauron Jr? If your DM allows Flaws from UA, take Noncombatant and Vulnerable and use them to pay for this build: Human 1st level feats: Disciple of Darkness, Evil Brand, Precocious Apprentice, Spell Focus: Enchantment 3rd level feat Mask of Gentility 6th level feat Leadership 9th level feat Mindsight Specialist Wizard 2/Master Specialist 5/Disciple of Asmodeus 1/Mindbender 1 As before, continue Master Specialist to 10, but don’t bother filling out Wizard. Proceed directly to Archmage, take all the levels, then top it off with something fun for level 20. Wyrm Wizard is nice.
#23 karmme Mar 16, 2009 11:02:43	Just out of curiosity, how will this character deal with combat, especially grappling, which the DM mentioned would be an issue. It might be that that will be the cohort's job.
#24 phaedrusxy Mar 16, 2009 11:52:06	I guess there is that. But do any of the other vestiges help you with diplomacy? There is another vestige that gives you a +4 to diplomacy (Astaroth, here), but once you can turn everyone to fanatic with a standard action, why do you need to focus even more on Diplomacy? There are other aspects of the game to consider, and Binder brings a lot to the table. And besides, even taking 1 level of it will get you access to Naberius and his Diplomastery. I don't think any other single dip in all of D&D brings so much to a diplomacy build. Who else can take 10 as a standard action with no penalty? What else grants that as a 1 level dip? If you are dead set on using Palladin, I could understand avoiding Binder due to RP conflicts, but if you're considering a Disciple of Asmodeus, Binder fits extremely well. I'm playing a Binder/Ur-Priest/Anima Mage right now in a game where we are all servants of Dispater, Lord of the 2nd Layer of Hell, and he is crazy powerful, and also good at diplomacy without even focusing on that. The Binder Handbook can give you an idea of what you can get from the class, and Anima Mage handbook can show you what it can bring for a spellcaster. And here is a link to my Ur-Priest, and a summary of the Vestiges he can bind (Effective Binder Level is 10 for what he can bind). Oh, and there are a couple of crazy 2nd level cleric spells that give massive boosts to skill checks. This online one gives you a +20 to your next skill check, and I think Divine Insight in the Spell Compendium can give you a +15 to any skill, and it stacks with the one I linked above. If you can use them, turning people Fanatic should be trivial, even at low levels. Edit: Also, it should be possible to just add Binder1/Anima Mage to the build with Disciple of Asmodeus, or add a level of Disc. of Asmo. to another Binder/Anima Mage build.
#25 Kevin_Andrew_Murphy Mar 16, 2009 14:06:56	Just out of curiosity, how will this character deal with combat, especially grappling, which the DM mentioned would be an issue. It might be that that will be the cohort's job. Grappling does not stop telepathy, and even if you're gift wrapped with twelve celestial octopi, your mindsight will tell you where your cohort and all your assorted followers are so you can telepathically yelp for them to come save you. And if you've been sensible, you've been charming people left, right and center to be your back-up cohort. The nice thing about charm spells is that, if you're subtle about them--for example, casting them when people's backs are turned--no one knows. Also, while your loyal 1st level followers may not seem good for much, you can pick any 1st level PC race, so you make certain to hire changelings. Not only can you have them accessorize with any decor and switch around for better spying, but if you get caught in a fight where someone is going all grapple happy, you have a squad of perfect body doubles, especially if you costume yourselves and your followers all in the same garb, such as the same modest religious vestments or the same wizards robes or livery or whatever.
#26 karmme Mar 16, 2009 21:42:11	I decided to just go with the cheater of mystra build. Should be able to deal with almost anything that comes up.