I am trying to build a Barbarian with the ultimate goal being to become a Frienzed Berserker (I know this is one of those taboo classes just by reading up on them), basically I am looking to make a character that does alot of damage quickly and the FB seems the best way to do this.
I have decided on making a Goliath barbarian, aside from the bonus to stats they get which is nice despite the LA+1, the other bonues they get such as being considered large when it is beneficial to them is just awesome.
Anyway on to the main question, I already have my stats and everything built but my problem lies with my feats, I know the required ones I need to get to FB but other then that I am at a loss as to what else to get.
The feats I know I am going to be getting so far are:
- power attack
- cleave
- great cleave
- destructive rage
- intimidating rage
(I was planning on taking anywhere between 2-4 levels of fighter for bonus feats)
There are several other feats that interest me but I dont know if they are worth it or not such as instantaneous rage or steadfast determination (my will save is going to be bad regardless so is it even worth it to use up 2 feats to get this?)
Leap attack looks amazing but I just dont know where to fit it in after all the required feats I need, I was also going to get righteous wrath to counter act my frenzy ability (I already spoke with my DM who is willing to allow this provided I work to get the feat instead of just taking it)
So to start off here is my guy as he is at level 1, please let me know what you think and if you have any suggestions or pointers.
Ability Scores (with racial modifiers):
Str - 20 (16+4)
Dex - 12 (14-2)
Con - 20 (18+2)
Int - 8
Wis - 8
Cha - 8
Feats (our DM is letting us take one bonus feat at level 1):
- Toughness
- Power Attack
Thanks in advance.
I wouldn't take toughness. The relative value of 3 hit points is going to get worse and worse. It's not even very good now. I'd take extra rage instead. It's from complete warrior and gives you 2 extra uses of rage per day. Being able to rage 3 times per day will really help see you through the lower levels.
I don't know if you've checked out the goliath barbarian racial substitution levels in Races of Stone. Mountain rage is nice. It makes you actually large when raging and improves your strength bonus from rage by +2.
Complete Champion has a nice alternate class feature for barbarians called lion totem. You give up fast movement and gain the ability to full-attack after a charge. This doesn't start being handy until you get multiple attacks, but then it is great.
Knockback is a feat in Races of Stone that gives you a free bull rush with added benefits every time you hit someone while using power attack. Rampaging bull rush is a feat in Races of Stone that lets you automatically knock someone prone when you bull rush him. There is an alternate class feature for fighters in Dungeonscape called dungeoncrasher that lets you deal 4d6+2*str damage when you bull rush someone into a wall at fighter level 2 and 8d6+3*str damage at fighter level 6. You trade your 2nd and 6th level fighter bonus feats for this benefit. Together, these things make a very effective strategy.
take the free power attack. then take cleave as your first feat. i would take a 2 level dip into fighter if you feel you are feet starved.
the feats you really want to have to make sure you have are as follows in no particular order
leap attack
shock trooper
improved bull rush ( if you go dungeon crasher variant )
power attack
cleave
intimidating rage
destructive rage
steadfast determination
maybe exotic weapon pro - Jovar ( if you like rolling crits 18-20 crit range 2d6 damage base ) or mercurial greatsword if your DM will allow the 3.0 arms and equipment guide. x4 crit greatsword is all ways fun if allowed.
i am working out a similar character in an upcoming game i have comming now but i am focusing on rage and primeval form to give me a strength into the 60s at level 20 with out a magic item. when i get set on a build i can post it for you but i am playing an anthromorphic ape in the game and using a shark toothed club to fit a missing link primeval themed concept i am going for.
also you will want to find a way to add flight to your character either with a template or a magic item.
As for the feats, I am trying to stay away from things like totems simply because one I dont understand them enough to use them and two because I am trying to keep things relatively simple for our DM since I also dont think it would work for the campaign since dont the totems require a specific campaign type or at least a specific setting (tribes and such)
As for my reasoning for getting toughness, our DM has a set of house rules that he uses (I am sure all DMs do this) that basically combines toughness and improved toughness so in addition to the +3 hp I am also getting +1 each level.
I like the sound of that knockback combo, I might give that a try.
I was also interested in getting exotic weapon prof, and here is why. In MMIV (page 91 I think) there is a minotaur greathammer (1d12, 19-20/x4) and my DM doesnt have a problem with me using one. I was planning on getting one crafted with alchemic gold making it a heavy weapon which increases its damage one size. Getting this large since Goliaths get no pently for weapons one size larger then them would make it a 4d6 19-20/x4 and then potentially adding the impact enhancement to it making it 17-20/x4.
But the problem I am having as far as feats go is it seems like I am running short and ultimately I am going to be taking some at higher levels which means I wont be using them for a while.
So normally a character gets what 7 feats (not included class bonus feats) my DM is granting us a bonus feat at level 1 giving me a total of 8. If I take 2 levels of fighter thats another 2 feats giving me 10.
I need at least 5 of those for my FB leaving me 5 free ones.
Leap attack sounds amazing (ultimately giving me what +200% damage with supreme power attack?)
I dont know exactly what shock trooper does but isnt it something along the lines of allowing me to charge from any direction instead of just a straight line?
Mountain rage certainly does look nice, I didnt know it actually made you large size, is that worth the loss of Con though?
And like I said before, one of my biggest questions is about steadfast determination. Since barbarians have such low will saves anyway (at level 20 they have a natural what +4?) so it actually worth 2 feats to get this?
Shock trooper allows you to penalize AC instead of BAB, not sure of the exact limits.
I would suggest taking a level of Cleric, or perhaps Warblade.
A cleric will grant a +2 to your will save, and luck domain will give you a re-roll. It's relatively easy to end up wasting all your frenzies on paper cuts.
Warblade gets to use a skill check as a will save. I'm sure I don't have to explain the benefits of that.
At the very least, pick Steadfast Determination. It allows you to use Fort instead of Will, I believe.
It's either dipping, spent feats, or you killing all the other PCs and being told to make a new character.
I dont mind spending the feats I was just wondering if its really worth it like I said since I am going to have such a low will save even with the feats/class levels.
The totems in Complete Champion are quite different from the totems in Unearthed Arcana. The Complete Champion lion totem is a simple trade of fast movement for pounce and doesn't require any particular campaign setting.
That house-rule means toughness is no longer terrible, but since there are so many feats you'll want to take, I still don't think it makes the cut. You're already averaging 11.5 hit points per level. I'd take feats you really need before spending feats to bump that number.
I'd don't know what loss of con you're talking about with mountain rage. The effects of mountain rage, including the base effects of rage, are large size, +6 str, +4 con, +2 will saves, and -2 AC.
Warblades can replace a will save with a concentration check up to every other round. Since it is impossible to use the concentration skill in a rage or frenzy, this has limited use for barbarians and frenzied berserkers.
it could be used to prevent you from wasting a frenzy, though.
Coming down from a Frenzy after enemies are dead is the important bit, though. You can maximize your base will save by taking the bad will classes - fighter and barb - in sets of three, before FB. the very first FB level is probably the most dangerous - it's when my group's Barb 6/FB 1 killed off half of the party.
A single dip to cleric could net you +2 to will saves in addition to a single luck reroll/day, and if you go for Pride domain, you could even net an extra reroll if a nat 1 happens.
It WILL delay entry to FB by level, though.
For an example, a Barbarian 4/Fighter 2/Cleric 1 will get measly +3 will saves, +CON bonus, meaning
+12 in rage. With Re-roll, you have a decent chance of hitting that, 1/day which is how many frenzies you've got anyway.
It can be near-impossible to avoid entering frenzy when taking damage, though.
Fall when climbing? Frenzy. Get hit by a distant arrow or invisible assailant? Frenzy? Get hit by a trap? Frenzy. and then, even if you succeed in shutting it down, you've wasted your daily frenzy.
So according to that link a lion totem barbarian gets:
- At 1st level, a lion-totem barbarian gains Run as a bonus feat.
- A 2nd-level lion-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
- A 5th-level lion-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on damage rolls whenever he charges.
Is run suppose to be pounce? Wouldnt this basically bring me down to 20ft move speed unless I am in light armor?
I will look into the cleric option, it sounds nice.
Thanks.
And thanks for all the suggestions, I cant say I am going to using them all but I think it has certainly helped flesh out my character and give me the options to choose where I want to ultimately go.
There is a light armor that provides better protection then medium? 0_0 Do tell.
At the very least, there is Mithral Breastplate!
Thanks.
Do the AC bonuses stack between all these items though? For instance if I got a +1, +2 and +3 enhancement on each would they stack or would it just take the highest?
As far as the "kind" of DM I have well, so far he seems more concerned with making sure we are having fun, we have actually gotten into several situations so far were several of us almost died and he actually scaled back some of the monsters he was going to throw at us.
He is pretty open to most things provided you actually role play whatever you are doing.
Ultimately I think I could get more AC out of a mithiral full plate which would count as medium itself and give me at least 3 more AC (assuming both sets are +5 enhancement) I can certainly see this being VERY useful for a dex character but since I only have 12 I am only getting a +1 dex bonus out of it anyway.
I know this is all ultimately up to the DM, thats just the impression I got from the text.
But it does say that it requires medium armor prof to use it, thus one would assume it is medium armor correct?
I know this is all ultimately up to the DM, thats just the impression I got from the text.
No, it's a shield. If it were armor, it would be listed as armor. It is odd that it requires the proficiency to use effectively, but it is just a restriction. That doesn't make it armor instead of a shield.
Before you can even afford mithril full plate (over 10,000 gp!), you can afford a +2 Dex item (4,000 gp) and a +1 enhancement to your armor (1,000 gp). So you'll get 7 (armor) +2 (dex) from the Chain Shirt combo, and 8+1 from the Mithril Full Plate. So you actually wind up paying twice as much for the same AC with the mithril full plate, and losing 10 feet of speed.
Later on, the chain shirt combo is still better because you can enchant all 3 pieces separately. The enhancement bonuses won't stack, but other things like Fortification, Soulfire, and what not will all work just fine, and will be a LOT cheaper to split up onto multiple pieces than add to one.
Heavy armor in D&D just flat out sucks. Even without the Chahar-Aina and Dastana, you're still probably better off going with a +1 mithril breastplate and Dex item, than the mithril full plate. You won't get quite as much AC out of it (1 point less), but you also won't sacrifice your movement, which many times is more important.
It's sad but true, and I do like playing characters that wear heavy armor!
If you can use it, the Tooth of Savnok can actually help this quite a bit. It is a 2,000 gp item that lets you move at full speed while wearing heavy armor. It's in the magic item compendium.
I keep seeing different ways of doing it unfortunately, sometimes I wish the rules were a bit more clear =/
You can enchant the Chahar-aina? The way my DM explained it to me is that the item acts as a modifier to the armor you put it on, so it would act as an enhancement itself to say a chain shirt.
I keep seeing different ways of doing it unfortunately, sometimes I wish the rules were a bit more clear =/
You can enchant them all separately, but you'll only get the enhancement bonus from the highest one, as they don't stack.
So you could have a +1 heavy fortification chahar-aina, a +1 soulfire dastana, and a +5 chain shirt. You'd only get an armor bonus of 11 out of that (4base+1dastana+1chahar-aina+5enhancement), but you'd get also get the benefits of soulfire and heavy fortification, which you normally couldn't even fit on top of a +5 suit of armor!
It's a lot like enchanting your shield and armor separately, but in this case you have three pieces instead of two, and it doesn't take up a hand.
Still no word on whether chahar-aina actually counts as medium or not, I see alot of people saying it does and others saying it doesnt. If anyone has an official source that says one way or another please let me know.
I am still searching on my own.
Thanks.
That idea also crossed my mind since I get a vest slot anyway why not just use it instead of worrying about this.
Again, I've already suggested support for this idea...
That idea also crossed my mind since I get a vest slot anyway why not just use it instead of worrying about this.
Because a vest doesn't give you the extra +1 to AC?
If you're really worried about the chahar-aina counting as medium armor, just ignore the question-- make the chahar-aina mithril and even if it is medium naturally, it will be light after that.Aside from the magical arms and armor book where else is a good place to see the different enchantments?
Aside from the magical arms and armor book where else is a good place to see the different enchantments?
chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-M...
www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Inde...
What item were you planning on using to fit the vest slot, in the absence of this? How about the arms slot?
Unless the DM has ruled that this is equivalent to a vest, there is no reason you can't use a chahar-aina and vest at the same time, incidentally. The vest goes on under your armor, not above. Same for the dastana, though in both cases you could do it voluntarily if you think it's a bit too powerful compared to the rest of the party.
Thanks for the links btw, I am assuming this is an incomplete list but it will give me an idea of what I want.
Losing fast movement sees like a pretty big trade off though for just getting a full attack after a charge. Can you only take the trade off at level one? In otherwords is this basically like a substitution level?
You're trading that for full-attacking on a charge. Definitely a good deal. Fast movement won't be of much help, but doubling/tripling your charge damage will help a massive amount.
Thanks for all your help, and if you have anymore suggestions please let me know.