help character build Swashbuckler/ Dullest - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Corwin1518 Jan 07, 2013 13:00:59	Hi every i'm new to the forums and wanted to say howdy...so HOWDY :D I've played D&D since 03 i believe unfortunately i haven't played much since 4th ed came out eck poo...... any-hoot I'm going to be getting together with my old group and since I'm EXTREMELY rusty i wanted to throw out to you guys what my character concept is for the moment and get input on how i can make him/her (yea i dunno yet) better House rule we play by is that the books have to be from WOTC no 3rd party books and that we have to bring whatever books we use to the game session and since i got my DM all the books on PDF he completely fine with ALL WOTC books ^_^ The character Concept as a child has always been fascinated by contest of skills like fencing, samurais, Blade-singers, etc. and what not because of their elegance He/She takes it a sing of a "master" of their perspective art to be able to evade your opponents attacks and being able to use the least amount of effort in attacking them. (not necessarily doing rage barbarian damage just knowing where to hit the opponent for precise damage) With that the basis of my characters background i came up with the sketchy idea for the character he doesnt want EVER to be hit (like every character and wants to be able to hit EVERYTIME) This is my idea so far as a 15 lvl character Swash buckler/Duelist Feats: Able Lerner Combat Intuition Deft Opportunist Imp. Initiative Vexing Flanker Quick Reconnoiter Combat Reflexes Items BAG OF HOLDING The weapon i'm thinking will either be a +1 Rapier or Elven thin blade if elven of some kind +1 to hit and then i want to add metalline as a weapon property and i'm pretty sure there is a enchantment i can add on to do dex damage i just cant remember what its called i wanted to add So far this is what i have like i said its a concept i was mentally working on the last few days, i could really use help picking out the right gear and race who would give me the best stats for this. And fine tune the character yes i want to minmax power game the bejesus out of the character What else can i say about the characters persona so far not arrogant in his demenor but very confident in his skill always seeking to improve on them a cross between Hajime Saito/Tony Stark
#2 draco1119 Jan 07, 2013 13:37:14	How about a swashbuckler/swordsage? The Daring Outlaw feat will let your swashbuckler levels count for sneak attack (you'll need the Assassin's Stance first), you could dual wield Elven Thinblades (or plain short swords) if you so chose, and the Shadow Blade feat will let you add Dex to damage using certain weapons.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 07, 2013 13:50:59	Hi every i'm new to the forums and wanted to say howdy...so HOWDY :D Hello. I've played D&D since 03 i believe unfortunately i haven't played much since 4th ed came out eck poo...... any-hoot I'm going to be getting together with my old group and since I'm EXTREMELY rusty i wanted to throw out to you guys what my character concept is for the moment and get input on how i can make him/her (yea i dunno yet) better House rule we play by is that the books have to be from WOTC no 3rd party books and that we have to bring whatever books we use to the game session and since i got my DM all the books on PDF he completely fine with ALL WOTC books ^_^ That's good - thanks for telling us which books are allowed right at the start. Occasionally we wrestle with people to get them to tell us the whole story. The character Concept as a child has always been fascinated by contest of skills like fencing, samurais, Blade-singers, etc. and what not because of their elegance He/She takes it a sing of a "master" of their perspective art to be able to evade your opponents attacks and being able to use the least amount of effort in attacking them. (not necessarily doing rage barbarian damage just knowing where to hit the opponent for precise damage) With that the basis of my characters background i came up with the sketchy idea for the character he doesnt want EVER to be hit (like every character and wants to be able to hit EVERYTIME) You have perfectly described a warblade specializing in Iron Heart with a splash of Diamond Mind (all from the Tome of Battle). This will be significantly better than a swashbuckler/duelist, largely because the former is only useful in niche scenarios and the latter is a joke. This is my idea so far as a 15 lvl character Swash buckler/Duelist Feats: Able Lerner Combat Intuition Deft Opportunist Imp. Initiative Vexing Flanker Quick Reconnoiter Combat Reflexes These feats are all over the place and often at cross-purposes: Able Learner won't work too well with you because swashbuckler and duelist share many class skills. Thus, all the skills that neither class has are always going to be at cross-class max rank. To make Able Learner work well, you usually need to go from a class with a lot of class skills (regardless of skill points) to classes with fewer class skills and skill points. (The usual suggestion is one or more levels of Factotum or Uncanny Trickster (Dungeonscape and Complete Scoundrel); these classes have all skills as class skills, even ones that aren't explicitly listed in the PHB (such as Autohypnosis)). Combat Intuition sounds nifty but really isn't. It's only nice because it's a free action; everything else about it is strictly sub-par. (Even the attack bonus is strictly worse than Weapon Focus, which says a lot.) I'd only use this feat if it's important to your character's concept and another feat wouldn't do better (which is a very, very, very short list of scenarios). Deft Opportunist works best if you have reach and the bonus feat to spend on it. Basically you need to work as an AoO tank to make this feat worthwhile - and even then, in order to make the most of it, you need Power Attack (which is missing from your build despite the feat basically being THE feat for melee) to translate that bonus accuracy (you've got a full base attack already) into damage. There's only one weapon that'll work with Power Attack, your bonus Weapon Finesse feat, and reach attacks, and that's a spiked chain. Quick Reconnoiter is a nice effect but certainly not worth a feat. It also won't really help your "never be hit" idea if you were planning on taking it to foil ambushes - you need to say you're using it, and there's no reason to do that unless you know there are enemies nearby. Vexing Flanker is essentially useless unless your point is to get your flanking bonuses super-high. Basically, only Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes help your case. Interestingly, both of those are warblade bonus feats. Items BAG OF HOLDING You're prioritizing the wrong thing (and I'd use a handy haversack over a bag of holding almost any day of the week). I'd suggest looking up some equipment handbooks if you're this excited about extradimensional storage space. The weapon i'm thinking will either be a +1 Rapier or Elven thin blade if elven of some kind +1 to hit and then i want to add metalline as a weapon property and i'm pretty sure there is a enchantment i can add on to do dex damage i just cant remember what its called i wanted to add A +1 weapon at level 15? I need to clean coffee off my screen now. (As a rule of thumb, I'd suggest no primary weapon user ever have a weapon less than one-quarter their level in effective enhancement bonus if they plan on being useful. That doesn't all have to be enhancement, but a mere +1? Laugh.) If you're concerned about damage reduction or Dexterity SAD, see below. There isn't an enhancement directly that I'm aware of for Dex to Damage, but there are many ways of getting that. (There's one good one in the Tome of Battle, but it's open to swordsages, not warblades.) So far this is what i have like i said its a concept i was mentally working on the last few days, i could really use help picking out the right gear and race who would give me the best stats for this. And fine tune the character yes i want to minmax power game the bejesus out of the character Be advised that melee does not often produce this degree of 'oomph'. Particularly old classes, and especially if you're not ubercharging or AoO tanking. (If you don't know what those are, google around and you'll find some useful discussion. Ubercharging basically combines Power Attack with as many multipliers as it can find and can easily dish out one-hit kills assuming it can get a charge off. AoO tanking focuses on getting AoOs in response to everything the enemy does, and uses those AoOs to prevent the enemy from doing anything (usually while thwacking their HP in the process - but the point is to damage the enemy's ability to act, which is more important than their HP).) Here's the approach I would personally take with that concept in mind. Half-Elf or Elf (depends if you can stomach the constitution penalty; this is for prerequisite purposes.) Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 5 Feats: -Power Attack (kind of THE feat for melee, do not disregard this) -Weapon Focus (This is a prerequisite feat for Eternal Blade. Greatsword is probably the best choice, but as long as it's two-handed you'll be fine) -Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes (the best of the warblade bonus feats) -Open feats at 6, 9, 12, and 15. (See below.) Maneuvers should include Wall of Blades (a simple and effective parry), Emerald Razor (a touch attack) and/or Ruby Nightmare Blade (a precision kill strike aimed by analysis), and look through Iron Heart for the rest of it (as Iron Heart largely focuses on simple, pragmatic, effective skills with the weapon and a bit of endurance on the side). Diamond Mind and possibly White Raven will round it out (DM is based on action at the speed of thought, and WR is based around teamwork and leadership but also has a flair for the simple and effective). Note that the warblade and eternal blade both have decent Intelligence synergy, and the eternal blade has the ability to bypass any damage reduction as a swift action (instead of just the metal ones after wasting an attack). For equipment, if you want, you can "buy" Weapon Finesse by using the Feycraft template (DMG2) on your weapon, but I'd suggest not doing this and instead concentrating on Strength with a graceful focus in your maneuvers. You'll be able to pick up stances like Dancing Blade Form, Pearl of Black Doubt, and Absolute Steel, all of which are basically speed/finesse based without forcing you to split between Strength and Dexterity. It's a shame you don't ever want to be hit - as that rules out Robilar's Gambit, one of the better high-level feats for warriors (and a particularly good choice with the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat - doing this you'd get Iron Heart Aura at 6th, Stormguard Warrior at 9, Robilar's at 12, and anything of your choice at 15), using counters to block anything that does get through. Getting hit in melee is a reality you'll have to face. Robilar's lets you turn any attack against you - ones that hit you, ones that you avoid, and ones that you negate with your counters - into a chance to riposte and strike your opponent. (Stormguard allows you to instead convert this into bonus accuracy and/or damage on your next turn, so you sidestep or parry an attack and then return it in a much more deadly form.) EDIT: If you want to emphasize Dexterity itself rather than raw speed and elegance (they're different things), Draco's suggestion (which would probably look like Swashbuckler 6 / Swordsage 2 / Swashbuckler +7 in the most simple form; feats would include Shadow Blade at 9th and Daring Outlaw at any point after you get Assassin's Stance) might be a better direct route. It'll be worse overall since you'll focus on simple melee and sneak attack, though, and those strategies aren't as good as they look on paper, nor will it feel as dynamic. A more dynamic version of that suggestion ignores Swashbuckler (and the Int synergy) altogether and simply doing Swordsage 20 with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. You'll do fine in most games like you describe - it's hard to screw up a martial adept simply by picking what looks cool. This isn't the most optimized I can come up with (obviously, I threw it together pretty fast) but it should work as a base - and it's significantly better than the swashbuckler/duelist at pretty much exactly the same goal.
#4 The_Fred Jan 07, 2013 14:35:49	This will be significantly better than a swashbuckler/duelist, largely because the former is only useful in niche scenarios and the latter is a joke. It's a shame the Duelist sucks, but it does. The Swashbuckler might still be worth taking to L3 for Insightful Strike, though (and perhaps the free Weapon Finesse at L1), especially since Warblade benefits from being taken later (so multiclassing it is not so harmful). Able Learner won't work too well with you because swashbuckler and duelist share many class skills. Thus, all the skills that neither class has are always going to be at cross-class max rank. That is true, though Able Learner may still have some use for cheaper access to trained-only skills, for example (e.g. putting a 1 in that Autohynosis does at least let you make checks, and for characters with Concentration and Wis you can get a decent bonus even from just that). He may not have the skill points to maximise all his skills in the first place, either, so having half ranks in a few might be a possibility. However, I'm not sure it's worth a feat. To make Able Learner work well, you usually need to go from a class with a lot of class skills ... The usual suggestion is one or more levels of Factotum If we're talking Int-based here, perhaps a Factotum 1/Swash 3/Warblade might work. That gives you the four levels you need to get L2 manouevres at Warblade 1, all class skills via Able Learner, Cunning Insight (which is +Int, not based off Factotum level) and Int to damage. Note that if the Font of Inspiration feat is allowed, even one level of Factotum can give you a lot more punch (IIRC Inspiration points are per fight anyway). Thanks to the lovely way manoeuvres work, you could dip two levels of Swordsage as well as focusing in Warblade. If using Daring Outlaw with Assassin's Stance is allowed (and they way they interact, if at all, is up to your DM's interpretation) then you could get a decent amount of Sneak Attack there, but it's not necessary. Note that despite the Weapon Finesse, even a Swashbuckler is probably better going Str-based since they you get both bonus to your damage. Then, with Cunning Insight and/or Sapphire Nightmare Blade/Emerald Razor you should be able to get a good number of fairly high-damage and accurate strikes off in each encounter.
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 07, 2013 15:52:15	It's a shame the Duelist sucks, but it does. The Swashbuckler might still be worth taking to L3 for Insightful Strike, though (and perhaps the free Weapon Finesse at L1), especially since Warblade benefits from being taken later (so multiclassing it is not so harmful). I would concur - but only in a game where power isn't all that important, and where you're deliberately avoiding Strength. This is a bit niche, and conflicts with part of the original request ("yes i want to minmax power game the bejesus out of the character"). It's the sort of stuff we would do just as soon as the Tome came out in 2006 - back when we were still thinking in terms of "Dip up the wazoo with things like swashbuckler and champion of corellon larethian" as our default for melee, before we realized how much simpler and more effective it was to simply stick to the tome. (Example: Shadow Blade.) That is true, though Able Learner may still have some use for cheaper access to trained-only skills, for example (e.g. putting a 1 in that Autohynosis does at least let you make checks, and for characters with Concentration and Wis you can get a decent bonus even from just that). He may not have the skill points to maximise all his skills in the first place, either, so having half ranks in a few might be a possibility. However, I'm not sure it's worth a feat. Ehhh.... niche at absolute best. He can do exactly the same thing for two skill points at any level. If we're looking into feat costs, there is a feat that allows you to make any skill check as if you were trained (Jack of All Trades) as well as ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded" contenteditable="true">one feat that gives you five skill points (compared to the two that it costs you to unlock a specific skill); neither feat is all that commonly used (I've never seen Open Minded in use, and only seen Jack of All Trades in Bardic Knack builds). As to the skill point cost, we consider two skill points a good tradeoff for skill tricks (although only a handful of those are actually useful); if you think about it, those are basically time-limited, super-trained-only effects. There are feats which add specific skills as class skills (eg. the dragonmark feats and Martial Study), and feats which even add multiple skills as class skills (eg. City Slicker - not usually worth it except in specific concepts), and even feats which reduce the cross-class cost for specific skills (Guerilla Scout for Spot/Listen and Guerilla Warrior for Hide/Move Silently; both also come with other minor benefits (+1 Initiative and -1 ACP, respectively)); most of these pale against Able Learner if it's available - and even then, you aren't using Able Learner to unlock cross-class skills so much as to continue to advance skills more easily after you multiclass. If we're talking Int-based here, perhaps a Factotum 1/Swash 3/Warblade might work. That gives you the four levels you need to get L2 manouevres at Warblade 1, all class skills via Able Learner, Cunning Insight (which is +Int, not based off Factotum level) and Int to damage. Note that if the Font of Inspiration feat is allowed, even one level of Factotum can give you a lot more punch (IIRC Inspiration points are per fight anyway). Thanks to the lovely way manoeuvres work, you could dip two levels of Swordsage as well as focusing in Warblade. If using Daring Outlaw with Assassin's Stance is allowed (and they way they interact, if at all, is up to your DM's interpretation) then you could get a decent amount of Sneak Attack there, but it's not necessary. I'd only suggest this if you're diehard on ignoring Strength in favor of Intelligence. I'd also hate to have to play that from low levels, but here we're starting at 15. Still, it's servicable (particularly if you max out Concentration and make use of the Diamond Mind strikes); if you're totally dropping Strength in favor of Int and Dex, though, you have to use Martial Stance or swordsage levels to grab a Shadow Hand stance (either Island of Blades or Assassin's Stance - note that Island would let you apply your warblade's int-to-flanking-damage more frequently, while Assassin's might qualify you for Daring Outlaw, which with Swash3 is basically one feat for +2d6 sneak attack), then grab the Shadow Blade feat. This is not only costly in terms of feats or class levels, but the opportunity cost of being forced to use a Shadow Hand stance instead of one of your other stances (as well as using only shadow hand weapons) is also a factor. But you're right about Inspiration Points - they are per-encounter, just like your maneuvers (but without a refresh). The rough 15th level structure for this would probably be Factotum 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 2 / Swordsage 2 / Warblade +7 (or looking into ToB prestige options within those last 7 levels); feats would probably be Able Learner at 1, Font of Inspiration at 3, Shadow Blade at 6 (requires you to get Island of Blades at 6th, good choice anyway), Improved Initiative and either Combat Reflexes or Blind-Fight as warblade bonus feats, picking Shadow Hand as your discipline focus as a swordsage, and the 9th, 12th, and 15th level feats open. Note that equipment-wise, this build requires Shadow Hand weapons, so you're probably using short swords or daggers. (Note that this feat structure doesn't assume you're human; if you are, your bonus feat is probably going to be another Font of Inspiration; since you're using Shadow Hand weapons and all of their simple/martial weapons are light, you can't make use of Power Attack.) Maneuvers are pretty open - on the warblade side again, look into Iron Heart (parries, accurate no-nonsense attacks) and Diamond Mind (speed, multiplicative attacks); for your swordsage dip I'd suggest Diamond Mind (counters, situational Concentration use), Shadow Hand (teleports, plus your combat stances), and Setting Sun (mostly for Counter Charge). Remember that although you ready maneuvers separately for each class, maneuvers learned from one class count towards the others' prerequisites. That is, if you learn a Diamond Mind counter as a swordsage, it occupies a swordsage ready slot and is recovered as a swordsage, and cannot be readied or recovered (or learned again!) as a warblade - but you know one Diamond Mind maneuver, which can help with the prereqs on the warblade side of things. And vice versa. For those last three feats, here's four suggested routes (with sources). -One possible route based on precision damage is Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel; for you, this'd be +2d6 sneak attack while using Assassin's Stance (for a total of +4d6)), TWF [getting Improved TWF from Gloves of the Balanced Hands, MIC], and either Craven (Champions of Ruin; +Character Level on all sneak attack damage) or (possibly) Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook; attack with both weapons on a single AoO). The idea here is to get additional attacks, as your bonus damage applies on each hit. To make the most out of this, grab Wolf Fang Strike, and (eventually) the Mongoose boosts from Tiger Claw, and look into options which allow you to move and full attack (Pouncing Charge, Quicksilver Motion, Sudden Leap, and so on); learning Cloak of Deception as a swordsage maneuver is probably wise as well. -Another route based on pure swordplay would involve Iron Heart Aura (ToB; requires one Iron Heart stance; I'd suggest Absolute Steel as it helps you the most out of combat and you'll be using your Shadow Hand stance in combat. Absolute Steel + Ironheart Aura is a simple, no-nonsense boost to a lot of things all at once), Stormguard Warrior (ToB, requires Ironheart Aura, gives you great opportunities to convert AoOs and attacks that would normally miss into buffs on your next turn), and Robilar's Gambit (PHB2, gives you an AoO each time you're attacked, whether the attack hits or not). This approach emphasizes your parries and ripostes, and can produce pretty impressive results if paired with a precision Diamond Mind multiplier (Ruby Nightmare Blade). -Another based on more basic AoO use and playing the numbers game would involve Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain - note that this is still a Shadow Hand weapon, but also a finesse weapon, and two-handed to boot), Power Attack, and either Deft Opportunist (CAdv, +4 to all AoOs) or Defensive Sweep (PHB2, get a free AoO if a target doesn't move if you're next to them). This approach most notably gives you reach and capitalizes on your Combat Reflexes + high Dexterity - while using Power Attack on a two-hander to keep the damage up there. Since you have Power Attack, definitely consider Emerald Razor and multipliers (nightmare blades) on the Diamond Mind side. -Finally, for extra maneuver use, you can consider Adaptive Style (ToB: refreshes both your warblade and swordsage maneuvers at once. Your warblade maneuvers can refresh faster, but if you need a swordsage maneuver, you can use this to refresh both classes), Extra Readied Maneuver (ToB, exactly what it says on the tin), and... oh, I don't know, possibly another tactical feat (PHB2's Combat Panache fits the concept and is easy to qualify for with Able Learner, despite not being all that good...). Be advised that having the Moment of Alacrity maneuver readied with Adaptive Style can basically give you the ability to perfectly adjust your maneuvers for any battle. One last aside: Please see the article in my signature on flash-stepping as well; this involves using Evasive Reflexes with AoO tactics to sidestep enemy attacks and slide around the battlefield, which fits your "never get hit / always be in a position to hit" mentality (it isn't unstoppable, but it is a novel twist on 3.5 combat.). You can get Combat Reflexes from Serpent Armor (MIC) if you want. Sadly you can't just freely swap Evasive Reflexes for Combat Reflexes on the warblade bonus feat list, though, so using this might involve a bit of juggling. Note that despite the Weapon Finesse, even a Swashbuckler is probably better going Str-based since they you get both bonus to your damage. Then, with Cunning Insight and/or Sapphire Nightmare Blade/Emerald Razor you should be able to get a good number of fairly high-damage and accurate strikes off in each encounter. That said, it is possible to bypass Strength to some extent with Weapon Finesse and a +Dex-to-damage effect (Shadow Blade is the most well-known and probably the simplest to get).
#6 The_Fred Jan 07, 2013 18:11:36	Well, I think Str-based is probably simpler, but the sound of the concept is a Dex/Int-based character ("being able to use the least amount of effort in attacking them" suggests not having to use a great deal of physical force, so Dex over Str). Given that Swordsage has its own benefits (more manoevures, many known and can springboard into higher-level Warblade manouevres, Wis to stuff), going the Shadow Hand route sounds like a nice idea. I would think this would be something you would do if you already planned on using Assassin's Stance, but as you say you're shoehorning yourself a bit otherwise, especially when you get access to higher-level Warblade stances. I am actually already playing a Dex/Int-based Factotum/Swashbuckler going into Swordsage (with Shadow Hand) myself which is probably why that came to mind. Getting Int and Dex to both damage and AB is attractive, but that wasn't why I built him that way (I had a different theme), it just ended up like that. I would still be tempted to say that Swashbuckler or not, Str-based is probably less legwork. I'm just not sure whether a finesse character was part of the concept.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Corwin1518

Jan 07, 2013 13:00:59

Hi every i'm new to the forums and wanted to say howdy...so HOWDY :D

I've played D&D since 03 i believe unfortunately i haven't played much since 4th ed came out eck poo...... any-hoot I'm going to be getting together with my old group and since I'm EXTREMELY rusty i wanted to throw out to you guys what my character concept is for the moment and get input on how i can make him/her (yea i dunno yet) better

House rule we play by is that the books have to be from WOTC no 3rd party books and that we have to bring whatever books we use to the game session and since i got my DM all the books on PDF he completely fine with ALL WOTC books ^_^

The character Concept as a child has always been fascinated by contest of skills like fencing, samurais, Blade-singers, etc. and what not because of their elegance He/She takes it a sing of a "master" of their perspective art to be able to evade your opponents attacks and being able to use the least amount of effort in attacking them. (not necessarily doing rage barbarian damage just knowing where to hit the opponent for precise damage) With that the basis of my characters background i came up with the sketchy idea for the character he doesnt want EVER to be hit (like every character and wants to be able to hit EVERYTIME)

This is my idea so far as a 15 lvl character
Swash buckler/Duelist

Feats:
Able Lerner
Combat Intuition
Deft Opportunist
Imp. Initiative
Vexing Flanker
Quick Reconnoiter
Combat Reflexes

Items

BAG OF HOLDING

The weapon i'm thinking will either be a +1 Rapier or Elven thin blade if elven of some kind
+1 to hit and then i want to add metalline as a weapon property

and i'm pretty sure there is a enchantment i can add on to do dex damage i just cant remember what its called i wanted to add

So far this is what i have like i said its a concept i was mentally working on the last few days, i could really use help picking out the right gear and race who would give me the best stats for this. And fine tune the character yes i want to minmax power game the bejesus out of the character

What else can i say about the characters persona so far not arrogant in his demenor but very confident in his skill always seeking to improve on them a cross between Hajime Saito/Tony Stark

draco1119

Jan 07, 2013 13:37:14

How about a swashbuckler/swordsage? The Daring Outlaw feat will let your swashbuckler levels count for sneak attack (you'll need the Assassin's Stance first), you could dual wield Elven Thinblades (or plain short swords) if you so chose, and the Shadow Blade feat will let you add Dex to damage using certain weapons.

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 07, 2013 13:50:59

Hi every i'm new to the forums and wanted to say howdy...so HOWDY :D

Hello.

I've played D&D since 03 i believe unfortunately i haven't played much since 4th ed came out eck poo...... any-hoot I'm going to be getting together with my old group and since I'm EXTREMELY rusty i wanted to throw out to you guys what my character concept is for the moment and get input on how i can make him/her (yea i dunno yet) better

House rule we play by is that the books have to be from WOTC no 3rd party books and that we have to bring whatever books we use to the game session and since i got my DM all the books on PDF he completely fine with ALL WOTC books ^_^

That's good - thanks for telling us which books are allowed right at the start. Occasionally we wrestle with people to get them to tell us the whole story.

The character Concept as a child has always been fascinated by contest of skills like fencing, samurais, Blade-singers, etc. and what not because of their elegance He/She takes it a sing of a "master" of their perspective art to be able to evade your opponents attacks and being able to use the least amount of effort in attacking them. (not necessarily doing rage barbarian damage just knowing where to hit the opponent for precise damage) With that the basis of my characters background i came up with the sketchy idea for the character he doesnt want EVER to be hit (like every character and wants to be able to hit EVERYTIME)

You have perfectly described a warblade specializing in Iron Heart with a splash of Diamond Mind (all from the Tome of Battle). This will be significantly better than a swashbuckler/duelist, largely because the former is only useful in niche scenarios and the latter is a joke.

This is my idea so far as a 15 lvl character
Swash buckler/Duelist

Feats:
Able Lerner
Combat Intuition
Deft Opportunist
Imp. Initiative
Vexing Flanker
Quick Reconnoiter
Combat Reflexes

These feats are all over the place and often at cross-purposes:

Able Learner won't work too well with you because swashbuckler and duelist share many class skills. Thus, all the skills that neither class has are always going to be at cross-class max rank. To make Able Learner work well, you usually need to go from a class with a lot of class skills (regardless of skill points) to classes with fewer class skills and skill points. (The usual suggestion is one or more levels of Factotum or Uncanny Trickster (Dungeonscape and Complete Scoundrel); these classes have all skills as class skills, even ones that aren't explicitly listed in the PHB (such as Autohypnosis)).

Combat Intuition sounds nifty but really isn't. It's only nice because it's a free action; everything else about it is strictly sub-par. (Even the attack bonus is strictly worse than Weapon Focus, which says a lot.) I'd only use this feat if it's important to your character's concept and another feat wouldn't do better (which is a very, very, very short list of scenarios).

Deft Opportunist works best if you have reach and the bonus feat to spend on it. Basically you need to work as an AoO tank to make this feat worthwhile - and even then, in order to make the most of it, you need Power Attack (which is missing from your build despite the feat basically being THE feat for melee) to translate that bonus accuracy (you've got a full base attack already) into damage. There's only one weapon that'll work with Power Attack, your bonus Weapon Finesse feat, and reach attacks, and that's a spiked chain.

Quick Reconnoiter is a nice effect but certainly not worth a feat. It also won't really help your "never be hit" idea if you were planning on taking it to foil ambushes - you need to say you're using it, and there's no reason to do that unless you know there are enemies nearby.

Vexing Flanker is essentially useless unless your point is to get your flanking bonuses super-high.

Basically, only Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes help your case. Interestingly, both of those are warblade bonus feats.

Items

BAG OF HOLDING

You're prioritizing the wrong thing (and I'd use a handy haversack over a bag of holding almost any day of the week). I'd suggest looking up some equipment handbooks if you're this excited about extradimensional storage space.

The weapon i'm thinking will either be a +1 Rapier or Elven thin blade if elven of some kind
+1 to hit and then i want to add metalline as a weapon property

and i'm pretty sure there is a enchantment i can add on to do dex damage i just cant remember what its called i wanted to add

A +1 weapon at level 15? I need to clean coffee off my screen now. (As a rule of thumb, I'd suggest no primary weapon user ever have a weapon less than one-quarter their level in effective enhancement bonus if they plan on being useful. That doesn't all have to be enhancement, but a mere +1? Laugh.)

If you're concerned about damage reduction or Dexterity SAD, see below. There isn't an enhancement directly that I'm aware of for Dex to Damage, but there are many ways of getting that. (There's one good one in the Tome of Battle, but it's open to swordsages, not warblades.)

So far this is what i have like i said its a concept i was mentally working on the last few days, i could really use help picking out the right gear and race who would give me the best stats for this. And fine tune the character yes i want to minmax power game the bejesus out of the character

Be advised that melee does not often produce this degree of 'oomph'. Particularly old classes, and especially if you're not ubercharging or AoO tanking. (If you don't know what those are, google around and you'll find some useful discussion. Ubercharging basically combines Power Attack with as many multipliers as it can find and can easily dish out one-hit kills assuming it can get a charge off. AoO tanking focuses on getting AoOs in response to everything the enemy does, and uses those AoOs to prevent the enemy from doing anything (usually while thwacking their HP in the process - but the point is to damage the enemy's ability to act, which is more important than their HP).)

Here's the approach I would personally take with that concept in mind.

Half-Elf or Elf (depends if you can stomach the constitution penalty; this is for prerequisite purposes.)
Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 5
Feats:
-Power Attack (kind of THE feat for melee, do not disregard this)
-Weapon Focus (This is a prerequisite feat for Eternal Blade. Greatsword is probably the best choice, but as long as it's two-handed you'll be fine)
-Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes (the best of the warblade bonus feats)
-Open feats at 6, 9, 12, and 15. (See below.)
Maneuvers should include Wall of Blades (a simple and effective parry), Emerald Razor (a touch attack) and/or Ruby Nightmare Blade (a precision kill strike aimed by analysis), and look through Iron Heart for the rest of it (as Iron Heart largely focuses on simple, pragmatic, effective skills with the weapon and a bit of endurance on the side). Diamond Mind and possibly White Raven will round it out (DM is based on action at the speed of thought, and WR is based around teamwork and leadership but also has a flair for the simple and effective).
Note that the warblade and eternal blade both have decent Intelligence synergy, and the eternal blade has the ability to bypass any damage reduction as a swift action (instead of just the metal ones after wasting an attack).

For equipment, if you want, you can "buy" Weapon Finesse by using the Feycraft template (DMG2) on your weapon, but I'd suggest not doing this and instead concentrating on Strength with a graceful focus in your maneuvers. You'll be able to pick up stances like Dancing Blade Form, Pearl of Black Doubt, and Absolute Steel, all of which are basically speed/finesse based without forcing you to split between Strength and Dexterity.

It's a shame you don't *ever* want to be hit - as that rules out Robilar's Gambit, one of the better high-level feats for warriors (and a particularly good choice with the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat - doing this you'd get Iron Heart Aura at 6th, Stormguard Warrior at 9, Robilar's at 12, and anything of your choice at 15), using counters to block anything that does get through. Getting hit in melee is a reality you'll have to face. Robilar's lets you turn any attack against you - ones that hit you, ones that you avoid, and ones that you negate with your counters - into a chance to riposte and strike your opponent. (Stormguard allows you to instead convert this into bonus accuracy and/or damage on your next turn, so you sidestep or parry an attack and then return it in a much more deadly form.)

EDIT: If you want to emphasize Dexterity itself rather than raw speed and elegance (they're different things), Draco's suggestion (which would probably look like Swashbuckler 6 / Swordsage 2 / Swashbuckler +7 in the most simple form; feats would include Shadow Blade at 9th and Daring Outlaw at any point after you get Assassin's Stance) might be a better direct route. It'll be worse overall since you'll focus on simple melee and sneak attack, though, and those strategies aren't as good as they look on paper, nor will it feel as dynamic. A more dynamic version of that suggestion ignores Swashbuckler (and the Int synergy) altogether and simply doing Swordsage 20 with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade. You'll do fine in most games like you describe - it's hard to screw up a martial adept simply by picking what looks cool.

This isn't the most optimized I can come up with (obviously, I threw it together pretty fast) but it should work as a base - and it's significantly better than the swashbuckler/duelist at pretty much exactly the same goal.

The_Fred

Jan 07, 2013 14:35:49

This will be significantly better than a swashbuckler/duelist, largely because the former is only useful in niche scenarios and the latter is a joke.

It's a shame the Duelist sucks, but it does. The Swashbuckler might still be worth taking to L3 for Insightful Strike, though (and perhaps the free Weapon Finesse at L1), especially since Warblade benefits from being taken later (so multiclassing it is not so harmful).

Able Learner won't work too well with you because swashbuckler and duelist share many class skills. Thus, all the skills that neither class has are always going to be at cross-class max rank.

That is true, though Able Learner may still have some use for cheaper access to trained-only skills, for example (e.g. putting a 1 in that Autohynosis does at least let you make checks, and for characters with Concentration and Wis you can get a decent bonus even from just that). He may not have the skill points to maximise all his skills in the first place, either, so having half ranks in a few might be a possibility. However, I'm not sure it's worth a feat.

To make Able Learner work well, you usually need to go from a class with a lot of class skills ... The usual suggestion is one or more levels of Factotum

If we're talking Int-based here, perhaps a Factotum 1/Swash 3/Warblade might work. That gives you the four levels you need to get L2 manouevres at Warblade 1, all class skills via Able Learner, Cunning Insight (which is +Int, not based off Factotum level) and Int to damage. Note that if the Font of Inspiration feat is allowed, even one level of Factotum can give you a lot more punch (IIRC Inspiration points are per fight anyway).

Thanks to the lovely way manoeuvres work, you could dip two levels of Swordsage as well as focusing in Warblade. If using Daring Outlaw with Assassin's Stance is allowed (and they way they interact, if at all, is up to your DM's interpretation) then you could get a decent amount of Sneak Attack there, but it's not necessary.

Note that despite the Weapon Finesse, even a Swashbuckler is probably better going Str-based since they you get both bonus to your damage. Then, with Cunning Insight and/or Sapphire Nightmare Blade/Emerald Razor you should be able to get a good number of fairly high-damage and accurate strikes off in each encounter.

Tempest_Stormwind

Jan 07, 2013 15:52:15

It's a shame the Duelist sucks, but it does. The Swashbuckler might still be worth taking to L3 for Insightful Strike, though (and perhaps the free Weapon Finesse at L1), especially since Warblade benefits from being taken later (so multiclassing it is not so harmful).

I would concur - but only in a game where power isn't all that important, and where you're deliberately avoiding Strength. This is a bit niche, and conflicts with part of the original request ("yes i want to minmax power game the bejesus out of the character"). It's the sort of stuff we would do just as soon as the Tome came out in 2006 - back when we were still thinking in terms of "Dip up the wazoo with things like swashbuckler and champion of corellon larethian" as our default for melee, before we realized how much simpler and more effective it was to simply stick to the tome. (Example: Shadow Blade.)

That is true, though Able Learner may still have some use for cheaper access to trained-only skills, for example (e.g. putting a 1 in that Autohynosis does at least let you make checks, and for characters with Concentration and Wis you can get a decent bonus even from just that). He may not have the skill points to maximise all his skills in the first place, either, so having half ranks in a few might be a possibility. However, I'm not sure it's worth a feat.

Ehhh.... niche at absolute best. He can do exactly the same thing for two skill points at any level.

If we're looking into feat costs, there is a feat that allows you to make any skill check as if you were trained (Jack of All Trades) as well as ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded" contenteditable="true">one feat that gives you five skill points (compared to the two that it costs you to unlock a specific skill); neither feat is all that commonly used (I've never seen Open Minded in use, and only seen Jack of All Trades in Bardic Knack builds). As to the skill point cost, we consider two skill points a good tradeoff for skill tricks (although only a handful of those are actually useful); if you think about it, those are basically time-limited, super-trained-only effects.

There are feats which add specific skills as class skills (eg. the dragonmark feats and Martial Study), and feats which even add multiple skills as class skills (eg. City Slicker - not usually worth it except in specific concepts), and even feats which reduce the cross-class cost for specific skills (Guerilla Scout for Spot/Listen and Guerilla Warrior for Hide/Move Silently; both also come with other minor benefits (+1 Initiative and -1 ACP, respectively)); most of these pale against Able Learner if it's available - and even then, you aren't using Able Learner to unlock cross-class skills so much as to continue to advance skills more easily after you multiclass.

If we're talking Int-based here, perhaps a Factotum 1/Swash 3/Warblade might work. That gives you the four levels you need to get L2 manouevres at Warblade 1, all class skills via Able Learner, Cunning Insight (which is +Int, not based off Factotum level) and Int to damage. Note that if the Font of Inspiration feat is allowed, even one level of Factotum can give you a lot more punch (IIRC Inspiration points are per fight anyway).

Thanks to the lovely way manoeuvres work, you could dip two levels of Swordsage as well as focusing in Warblade. If using Daring Outlaw with Assassin's Stance is allowed (and they way they interact, if at all, is up to your DM's interpretation) then you could get a decent amount of Sneak Attack there, but it's not necessary.

I'd only suggest this if you're diehard on ignoring Strength in favor of Intelligence. I'd also hate to have to play that from low levels, but here we're starting at 15. Still, it's servicable (particularly if you max out Concentration and make use of the Diamond Mind strikes); if you're totally dropping Strength in favor of Int and Dex, though, you have to use Martial Stance or swordsage levels to grab a Shadow Hand stance (either Island of Blades or Assassin's Stance - note that Island would let you apply your warblade's int-to-flanking-damage more frequently, while Assassin's might qualify you for Daring Outlaw, which with Swash3 is basically one feat for +2d6 sneak attack), then grab the Shadow Blade feat. This is not only costly in terms of feats or class levels, but the opportunity cost of being forced to use a Shadow Hand stance instead of one of your other stances (as well as using only shadow hand weapons) is also a factor.

But you're right about Inspiration Points - they are per-encounter, just like your maneuvers (but without a refresh).

The rough 15th level structure for this would probably be Factotum 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Warblade 2 / Swordsage 2 / Warblade +7 (or looking into ToB prestige options within those last 7 levels); feats would probably be Able Learner at 1, Font of Inspiration at 3, Shadow Blade at 6 (requires you to get Island of Blades at 6th, good choice anyway), Improved Initiative and either Combat Reflexes or Blind-Fight as warblade bonus feats, picking Shadow Hand as your discipline focus as a swordsage, and the 9th, 12th, and 15th level feats open. Note that equipment-wise, this build requires Shadow Hand weapons, so you're probably using short swords or daggers. (Note that this feat structure doesn't assume you're human; if you are, your bonus feat is probably going to be another Font of Inspiration; since you're using Shadow Hand weapons and all of their simple/martial weapons are light, you can't make use of Power Attack.)

Maneuvers are pretty open - on the warblade side again, look into Iron Heart (parries, accurate no-nonsense attacks) and Diamond Mind (speed, multiplicative attacks); for your swordsage dip I'd suggest Diamond Mind (counters, situational Concentration use), Shadow Hand (teleports, plus your combat stances), and Setting Sun (mostly for Counter Charge). Remember that although you ready maneuvers separately for each class, maneuvers learned from one class count towards the others' prerequisites. That is, if you learn a Diamond Mind counter as a swordsage, it occupies a swordsage ready slot and is recovered as a swordsage, and cannot be readied or recovered (or learned again!) as a warblade - but you know one Diamond Mind maneuver, which can help with the prereqs on the warblade side of things. And vice versa.

For those last three feats, here's four suggested routes (with sources).
-One possible route based on precision damage is Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel; for you, this'd be +2d6 sneak attack while using Assassin's Stance (for a total of +4d6)), TWF [getting Improved TWF from Gloves of the Balanced Hands, MIC], and either Craven (Champions of Ruin; +Character Level on all sneak attack damage) or (possibly) Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook; attack with both weapons on a single AoO). The idea here is to get additional attacks, as your bonus damage applies on each hit. To make the most out of this, grab Wolf Fang Strike, and (eventually) the Mongoose boosts from Tiger Claw, and look into options which allow you to move and full attack (Pouncing Charge, Quicksilver Motion, Sudden Leap, and so on); learning Cloak of Deception as a swordsage maneuver is probably wise as well.
-Another route based on pure swordplay would involve Iron Heart Aura (ToB; requires one Iron Heart stance; I'd suggest Absolute Steel as it helps you the most out of combat and you'll be using your Shadow Hand stance in combat. Absolute Steel + Ironheart Aura is a simple, no-nonsense boost to a lot of things all at once), Stormguard Warrior (ToB, requires Ironheart Aura, gives you great opportunities to convert AoOs and attacks that would normally miss into buffs on your next turn), and Robilar's Gambit (PHB2, gives you an AoO each time you're attacked, whether the attack hits or not). This approach emphasizes your parries and ripostes, and can produce pretty impressive results if paired with a precision Diamond Mind multiplier (Ruby Nightmare Blade).
-Another based on more basic AoO use and playing the numbers game would involve Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain - note that this is still a Shadow Hand weapon, but also a finesse weapon, and two-handed to boot), Power Attack, and either Deft Opportunist (CAdv, +4 to all AoOs) or Defensive Sweep (PHB2, get a free AoO if a target doesn't move if you're next to them). This approach most notably gives you reach and capitalizes on your Combat Reflexes + high Dexterity - while using Power Attack on a two-hander to keep the damage up there. Since you have Power Attack, definitely consider Emerald Razor and multipliers (nightmare blades) on the Diamond Mind side.
-Finally, for extra maneuver use, you can consider Adaptive Style (ToB: refreshes both your warblade and swordsage maneuvers at once. Your warblade maneuvers can refresh faster, but if you need a swordsage maneuver, you can use this to refresh both classes), Extra Readied Maneuver (ToB, exactly what it says on the tin), and... oh, I don't know, possibly another tactical feat (PHB2's Combat Panache fits the concept and is easy to qualify for with Able Learner, despite not being all that good...). Be advised that having the Moment of Alacrity maneuver readied with Adaptive Style can basically give you the ability to perfectly adjust your maneuvers for any battle.

One last aside: Please see the article in my signature on flash-stepping as well; this involves using Evasive Reflexes with AoO tactics to sidestep enemy attacks and slide around the battlefield, which fits your "never get hit / always be in a position to hit" mentality (it isn't unstoppable, but it is a novel twist on 3.5 combat.). You can get Combat Reflexes from Serpent Armor (MIC) if you want. Sadly you can't just freely swap Evasive Reflexes for Combat Reflexes on the warblade bonus feat list, though, so using this might involve a bit of juggling.

Note that despite the Weapon Finesse, even a Swashbuckler is probably better going Str-based since they you get both bonus to your damage. Then, with Cunning Insight and/or Sapphire Nightmare Blade/Emerald Razor you should be able to get a good number of fairly high-damage and accurate strikes off in each encounter.

That said, it is possible to bypass Strength to some extent with Weapon Finesse and a +Dex-to-damage effect (Shadow Blade is the most well-known and probably the simplest to get).

The_Fred

Jan 07, 2013 18:11:36

Well, I think Str-based is probably simpler, but the sound of the concept is a Dex/Int-based character ("being able to use the least amount of effort in attacking them" suggests not having to use a great deal of physical force, so Dex over Str). Given that Swordsage has its own benefits (more manoevures, many known and can springboard into higher-level Warblade manouevres, Wis to stuff), going the Shadow Hand route sounds like a nice idea. I would think this would be something you would do if you already planned on using Assassin's Stance, but as you say you're shoehorning yourself a bit otherwise, especially when you get access to higher-level Warblade stances.

I am actually already playing a Dex/Int-based Factotum/Swashbuckler going into Swordsage (with Shadow Hand) myself which is probably why that came to mind. Getting Int and Dex to both damage and AB is attractive, but that wasn't why I built him that way (I had a different theme), it just ended up like that.

I would still be tempted to say that Swashbuckler or not, Str-based is probably less legwork. I'm just not sure whether a finesse character was part of the concept.