Help Choosing Feats and Spells for my Cleric - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help Choosing Feats and Spells for my Cleric

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
johnmcmahon
May 04, 2009 20:27:12 Hello.

I have made a char for a game we are about to start playing, and i dont have any idea of what to choose.

The koncept is a meleeclerictankdamagedealerdivinegishthingie.

I need some help with feats, (persistent)spells and domains for him.

The build goes like this:
Cleric3/church inquisitor2/Ordained Champion5/Knight of the raven10

As for race i have choosen Dragonborn of bahamut and applied the Saint template to it.

Everything is allowed as long it is from a book. I really want to use a lot of DMM : Persist cheese, so help me out.

He has the following stats:
str: 24
dex: 20
con:32
int: 22
Wis: 32
cha: 28
#2
johnmcmahon
May 05, 2009 4:38:29 So many have looked, but noone able to help?
#3
officeronin
May 05, 2009 8:58:19
He has the following stats:
str: 24
dex: 20
con:32
int: 22
Wis: 32
cha: 28

Honestly, when I read your stats, I thought I was reading 1st Ed Dieties and Demigods.

For domains, war is an obvious one for a divine gish. Metal provides similar capabilities, with a more flavorful spell list. You might also include passion for raging.

For feats, well, extend spell, persist spell, DMM persist, extra turning and easy-peasy persist are good for your persists. Combat casting and shielded casting might have good use, too.
#4
lormador
May 05, 2009 9:51:10 Trade a domain you don't need for Divine Magician. Then go shopping in the various books for sorcerer/wizard spells from abjuration/necromancy/divination never ever intended to be used as Persistent Buffs.

Ferocity of Sanguine Rage, for instance, will give you a big morale bonus to hit and damage. Circlet of Enervation will have you tossing around negative levels like they were candy. And you know all those lame Abjuration spells that would be great if they weren't standard action, 1 round/level spells? They are now awesome for you. Grab some absurd prismatic backlash thing, just to rub it in.

You know about Algid Enhancement, right? Greater Consumptive Field.... the Sunmace...

Forget Combat Casting. Prepare a Divine Insight if you'll need to make a tough Concentration check. There are only 4 feats in this world: The DMM Persist chain, and Extra Turning.
#5
goldenbraid
May 05, 2009 10:29:07
Honestly, when I read your stats, I thought I was reading 1st Ed Dieties and Demigods.

For domains, war is an obvious one for a divine gish. Metal provides similar capabilities, with a more flavorful spell list. You might also include passion for raging.

For feats, well, extend spell, persist spell, DMM persist, extra turning and easy-peasy persist are good for your persists. Combat casting and shielded casting might have good use, too.

hi! I strongly disagree about domains. If you want it to make sense and be great for RP then War might be a great idea.. if you want optimization, cheese and minmaxing then i belive there's no better than Spell. Why? Anyspell and Greater anyspell effects. Not counting uber other spells like Mordenkainen's at spell lvl 9th and so on...

the other domain depends a lot of you. My favourite is Animal (or maybe scalykind) because it gives you access to shapechange and that spell, when persisted really breaks everything. Less broken domains but great ones in my opinion are time, celerity and travel. Undeath gives you extra turning and planning ,extend spell, in case you lack some feat slots. another hint: you can atone and change your god / domains as far as I know, perhaps im wrong and thought about it because of the rebuild feature of PHBII so dont take my word for it. For god option, venerating the entire pantheon looks like the best option to me because if you get a PrC that gives you access to extra domains like Contemplative, you have a wide array of domains to choose from.

Id suggest you to be neutral something so you can cast both evil and good spells... an evil buff you definetly want on you (and to persist) is Veil of undeath (spell compendium) as it makes you immune to a lot of stuff, specially non-lethal damage. When paired with a persisted polymorph (via greater anyspell) or a shapechange... you practically become invulnerable to damage if you choose a creature with regeneration. hint: pit fiend (troll if you only have access to polymorph but fire and acid are a lot more common sources of damage than good and good&silver weapons.

Feats: id suggest extend spell/persistent spell/divine metamagic persistent spell. id take domain spontanteity from complete divine, it allows you to expend 1 turn undead attempt and you can spontaneously cast spells from certain domain instead of cure / inflict spells. And to take the spontaneous domain casting from PHB II for your other domain (for free). Depending of you, you might want power attack and if you don't have any better feat, extra turning is a great option as OfficeRonin suggested.

Great-to-persist spells imo are: shapechange (from animal domain), wraithstrike (obtained via anyspell), veil of undeath (its an evil spell, beware), hunter's eye (via miracle) (its a hunter's spell from PHB II that gives you 1d6 sneak attack for every 3 caster lvls, no limit) freedom of movement (unless you have your ring or cast heart of water with anyspell), divine power is a must and righteous might might be decent or not depending of your other buffs..i love greater spell immunity and if you have access to time, you can't go wrong with foresight (castable at spell lvl 8th), greater invisibility (gotten with greater anyspell), greater blink (again with greater anyspell) do you see how versatile and important are anyspell / greater anyspell?

Youll definetly want some rings of counterspells for this build. To be able to at the very least counter the first greater dispel magic thrown at you.

Youll need a ton of nightsticks too. Nightstick is a rod found in libris mortis that gives you +4 turning attempts per day not to its wielder but to its possesor This havent been errataed or anything by RAW. Mm speaking of feats: Craft rod will make getting these rods at a cheaper price and in case they get sundered, disjunctioned you can craft them again (as opposed to have your DM say: "there aren't any in the magic shops of the city")

The build is extremely powerful / cheesy and i have been subject to nerfs 3 times in the same campaign U__U, not to say that every greater dispel magic / mordenkainen's disjunction and reaving spell is always thrown at me. So beware =) hope this helps a bit
#6
goldenbraid
May 05, 2009 10:38:15
Trade a domain you don't need for Divine Magician. Then go shopping in the various books for sorcerer/wizard spells from abjuration/necromancy/divination never ever intended to be used as Persistent Buffs.

Forget Combat Casting. Prepare a Divine Insight if you'll need to make a tough Concentration check. There are only 4 feats in this world: The DMM Persist chain, and Extra Turning.

I totally agree. Divine magician seems extremely powerful. I didnt have the chance to kick a domain because i needed both. If you can spare one (Animal and no access to shapechange might be a decent tradeoff).

Where's divine insight by the way? I haven't seen it yet :O

ooooh, adding a cherry to the cheese cake: get a lvl of warblade (at char lvl 9 or better) or if you would like ruby knight vindicator, of crusader. why? to get the mega uber white raven tactics. practically every 2 turns you can get a free turn (if warblade is chosen). pretty cheesy huh? swift: recharge, swift: use it =P. im getting ruby knight vindicator for my epic levels , to be able to burn my unspent turn attempts to get about 10 full attacks or as many as i can pull off in "a turn" (depending of the mob's initiative anyway). Perfect for burning campaign bosses

Id add power attack to the feats that you need as it is cheaper than persisting a heroics for it and you can still use it in antimagic fields
#7
dr_rocktopus
May 05, 2009 12:47:25 Your cleric, sirrah, is he per chance of a cloistered variety?
If so, divine magician is easy-peasy.
#8
lormador
May 05, 2009 19:21:36 Divine Insight is from the Spell Compendium. It lets you get a big bonus on a skill check of your choice during a considerable duration. It's nice to have one up. I probably like this spell more than it deserves, but hey. I play Archivist.

Power Attack comes for free from Divine Power, no need to take it.

Cloistered Cleric is a fine idea, too, if you don't mind leaning a bit more on Divine Power. Those skill points can fuel Knowledge Devotion if we want to tone down the power somewhat. Let me be perfectly clear: I personally do not condone the taking of any feats other than Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent Spell, and Extra Turning for this character.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is there if you want it, but by this point, I'd advise being quite sure the other players aren't going to be completely overshadowed. With just persistent spells on, you can at least pretend not to be overwhelmingly awesome. With White Raven Tactics and Divine Impetus, it's not so easy.
#9
dr_rocktopus
May 05, 2009 21:13:24 What is the base race for your dragonborn?
Are you paying the LA on the saint template?
#10
officeronin
May 06, 2009 13:57:28
Forget Combat Casting. Prepare a Divine Insight if you'll need to make a tough Concentration check. There are only 4 feats in this world: The DMM Persist chain, and Extra Turning.

Combat casting is a pre-req for shielded casting, which prevents attacks of opportunity while casting (as long as you have a shield). Combat casting by itself is kinda silly, but, for a caster who steps up into melee, I kinda think that shielded casting is a worthwhile use of two feats. (In the campaigns that I generally find myself in, enemies with the "Mage Slayer" feat are pretty common, casters being the biggest threat to a non-caster and all. As a result, if I am making any sort of gish, I think about how I am gonna cast in melee...) The +4 on concentration when grappled or pinned is just gravy.
#11
lormador
May 06, 2009 17:33:22 That's a point, but doesn't carrying a shield itself cause some trouble? Are you satisfied with shield spikes as a primary weapon or something?

If Mageslayer is a problem I guess you should do something about it. If it were me I'd just announce a full power attack and whack 'em with my Sunmace.
#12
officeronin
May 06, 2009 21:33:34
That's a point, but doesn't carrying a shield itself cause some trouble? Are you satisfied with shield spikes as a primary weapon or something?

If Mageslayer is a problem I guess you should do something about it. If it were me I'd just announce a full power attack and whack 'em with my Sunmace.

Well, with shield and pike style, you can use a piercing polearm with two hands while using a shield. Maybe a duom or a great spear...

Consider where you plan to be fighting. If you are in the back, near the casters, the only gish that makes sense is an archer. If you are up front with the tanks, and don't have a way to make sure you can always cast, you might as well be playing a warrior. Here is a slight modification on a build I kinda liked -- it puts you just behind the BSF, and protecting the folks in the silk nighties while in range to heal, if need be.

Great Spear prof and focus (from War), shield and pike (flaw), extend spell (flaw), combat reflexes (human), combat casting (1st), shield casting (3rd), persist spell (6th), DMM persist (9th), extra turning (12th), Easy metamagic persist (15th), power attack (18th).

I was a bit more focused on healing, and was DMMing heals with reach instead of persisting spells. If I was not needed for healing, I kept in position to be a second line of defense for the robes, while poking the bad guys with a reach weapon if I had nothing pressing to do that turn. Not really optimized, but a pretty good combatant and excellent protection for the squishier party members while retaining all the clerical spellcasting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 johnmcmahon May 04, 2009 20:27:12	Hello. I have made a char for a game we are about to start playing, and i dont have any idea of what to choose. The koncept is a meleeclerictankdamagedealerdivinegishthingie. I need some help with feats, (persistent)spells and domains for him. The build goes like this: Cleric3/church inquisitor2/Ordained Champion5/Knight of the raven10 As for race i have choosen Dragonborn of bahamut and applied the Saint template to it. Everything is allowed as long it is from a book. I really want to use a lot of DMM : Persist cheese, so help me out. He has the following stats: str: 24 dex: 20 con:32 int: 22 Wis: 32 cha: 28
#2 johnmcmahon May 05, 2009 4:38:29	So many have looked, but noone able to help?
#3 officeronin May 05, 2009 8:58:19	He has the following stats: str: 24 dex: 20 con:32 int: 22 Wis: 32 cha: 28 Honestly, when I read your stats, I thought I was reading 1st Ed Dieties and Demigods. For domains, war is an obvious one for a divine gish. Metal provides similar capabilities, with a more flavorful spell list. You might also include passion for raging. For feats, well, extend spell, persist spell, DMM persist, extra turning and easy-peasy persist are good for your persists. Combat casting and shielded casting might have good use, too.
#4 lormador May 05, 2009 9:51:10	Trade a domain you don't need for Divine Magician. Then go shopping in the various books for sorcerer/wizard spells from abjuration/necromancy/divination never ever intended to be used as Persistent Buffs. Ferocity of Sanguine Rage, for instance, will give you a big morale bonus to hit and damage. Circlet of Enervation will have you tossing around negative levels like they were candy. And you know all those lame Abjuration spells that would be great if they weren't standard action, 1 round/level spells? They are now awesome for you. Grab some absurd prismatic backlash thing, just to rub it in. You know about Algid Enhancement, right? Greater Consumptive Field.... the Sunmace... Forget Combat Casting. Prepare a Divine Insight if you'll need to make a tough Concentration check. There are only 4 feats in this world: The DMM Persist chain, and Extra Turning.
#5 goldenbraid May 05, 2009 10:29:07	Honestly, when I read your stats, I thought I was reading 1st Ed Dieties and Demigods. For domains, war is an obvious one for a divine gish. Metal provides similar capabilities, with a more flavorful spell list. You might also include passion for raging. For feats, well, extend spell, persist spell, DMM persist, extra turning and easy-peasy persist are good for your persists. Combat casting and shielded casting might have good use, too. hi! I strongly disagree about domains. If you want it to make sense and be great for RP then War might be a great idea.. if you want optimization, cheese and minmaxing then i belive there's no better than Spell. Why? Anyspell and Greater anyspell effects. Not counting uber other spells like Mordenkainen's at spell lvl 9th and so on... the other domain depends a lot of you. My favourite is Animal (or maybe scalykind) because it gives you access to shapechange and that spell, when persisted really breaks everything. Less broken domains but great ones in my opinion are time, celerity and travel. Undeath gives you extra turning and planning ,extend spell, in case you lack some feat slots. another hint: you can atone and change your god / domains as far as I know, perhaps im wrong and thought about it because of the rebuild feature of PHBII so dont take my word for it. For god option, venerating the entire pantheon looks like the best option to me because if you get a PrC that gives you access to extra domains like Contemplative, you have a wide array of domains to choose from. Id suggest you to be neutral something so you can cast both evil and good spells... an evil buff you definetly want on you (and to persist) is Veil of undeath (spell compendium) as it makes you immune to a lot of stuff, specially non-lethal damage. When paired with a persisted polymorph (via greater anyspell) or a shapechange... you practically become invulnerable to damage if you choose a creature with regeneration. hint: pit fiend (troll if you only have access to polymorph but fire and acid are a lot more common sources of damage than good and good&silver weapons. Feats: id suggest extend spell/persistent spell/divine metamagic persistent spell. id take domain spontanteity from complete divine, it allows you to expend 1 turn undead attempt and you can spontaneously cast spells from certain domain instead of cure / inflict spells. And to take the spontaneous domain casting from PHB II for your other domain (for free). Depending of you, you might want power attack and if you don't have any better feat, extra turning is a great option as OfficeRonin suggested. Great-to-persist spells imo are: shapechange (from animal domain), wraithstrike (obtained via anyspell), veil of undeath (its an evil spell, beware), hunter's eye (via miracle) (its a hunter's spell from PHB II that gives you 1d6 sneak attack for every 3 caster lvls, no limit) freedom of movement (unless you have your ring or cast heart of water with anyspell), divine power is a must and righteous might might be decent or not depending of your other buffs..i love greater spell immunity and if you have access to time, you can't go wrong with foresight (castable at spell lvl 8th), greater invisibility (gotten with greater anyspell), greater blink (again with greater anyspell) do you see how versatile and important are anyspell / greater anyspell? Youll definetly want some rings of counterspells for this build. To be able to at the very least counter the first greater dispel magic thrown at you. Youll need a ton of nightsticks too. Nightstick is a rod found in libris mortis that gives you +4 turning attempts per day not to its wielder but to its possesor This havent been errataed or anything by RAW. Mm speaking of feats: Craft rod will make getting these rods at a cheaper price and in case they get sundered, disjunctioned you can craft them again (as opposed to have your DM say: "there aren't any in the magic shops of the city") The build is extremely powerful / cheesy and i have been subject to nerfs 3 times in the same campaign U__U, not to say that every greater dispel magic / mordenkainen's disjunction and reaving spell is always thrown at me. So beware =) hope this helps a bit
#6 goldenbraid May 05, 2009 10:38:15	Trade a domain you don't need for Divine Magician. Then go shopping in the various books for sorcerer/wizard spells from abjuration/necromancy/divination never ever intended to be used as Persistent Buffs. Forget Combat Casting. Prepare a Divine Insight if you'll need to make a tough Concentration check. There are only 4 feats in this world: The DMM Persist chain, and Extra Turning. I totally agree. Divine magician seems extremely powerful. I didnt have the chance to kick a domain because i needed both. If you can spare one (Animal and no access to shapechange might be a decent tradeoff). Where's divine insight by the way? I haven't seen it yet :O ooooh, adding a cherry to the cheese cake: get a lvl of warblade (at char lvl 9 or better) or if you would like ruby knight vindicator, of crusader. why? to get the mega uber white raven tactics. practically every 2 turns you can get a free turn (if warblade is chosen). pretty cheesy huh? swift: recharge, swift: use it =P. im getting ruby knight vindicator for my epic levels , to be able to burn my unspent turn attempts to get about 10 full attacks or as many as i can pull off in "a turn" (depending of the mob's initiative anyway). Perfect for burning campaign bosses Id add power attack to the feats that you need as it is cheaper than persisting a heroics for it and you can still use it in antimagic fields
#7 dr_rocktopus May 05, 2009 12:47:25	Your cleric, sirrah, is he per chance of a cloistered variety? If so, divine magician is easy-peasy.
#8 lormador May 05, 2009 19:21:36	Divine Insight is from the Spell Compendium. It lets you get a big bonus on a skill check of your choice during a considerable duration. It's nice to have one up. I probably like this spell more than it deserves, but hey. I play Archivist. Power Attack comes for free from Divine Power, no need to take it. Cloistered Cleric is a fine idea, too, if you don't mind leaning a bit more on Divine Power. Those skill points can fuel Knowledge Devotion if we want to tone down the power somewhat. Let me be perfectly clear: I personally do not condone the taking of any feats other than Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM: Persistent Spell, and Extra Turning for this character. Ruby Knight Vindicator is there if you want it, but by this point, I'd advise being quite sure the other players aren't going to be completely overshadowed. With just persistent spells on, you can at least pretend not to be overwhelmingly awesome. With White Raven Tactics and Divine Impetus, it's not so easy.
#9 dr_rocktopus May 05, 2009 21:13:24	What is the base race for your dragonborn? Are you paying the LA on the saint template?
#10 officeronin May 06, 2009 13:57:28	Forget Combat Casting. Prepare a Divine Insight if you'll need to make a tough Concentration check. There are only 4 feats in this world: The DMM Persist chain, and Extra Turning. Combat casting is a pre-req for shielded casting, which prevents attacks of opportunity while casting (as long as you have a shield). Combat casting by itself is kinda silly, but, for a caster who steps up into melee, I kinda think that shielded casting is a worthwhile use of two feats. (In the campaigns that I generally find myself in, enemies with the "Mage Slayer" feat are pretty common, casters being the biggest threat to a non-caster and all. As a result, if I am making any sort of gish, I think about how I am gonna cast in melee...) The +4 on concentration when grappled or pinned is just gravy.
#11 lormador May 06, 2009 17:33:22	That's a point, but doesn't carrying a shield itself cause some trouble? Are you satisfied with shield spikes as a primary weapon or something? If Mageslayer is a problem I guess you should do something about it. If it were me I'd just announce a full power attack and whack 'em with my Sunmace.
#12 officeronin May 06, 2009 21:33:34	That's a point, but doesn't carrying a shield itself cause some trouble? Are you satisfied with shield spikes as a primary weapon or something? If Mageslayer is a problem I guess you should do something about it. If it were me I'd just announce a full power attack and whack 'em with my Sunmace. Well, with shield and pike style, you can use a piercing polearm with two hands while using a shield. Maybe a duom or a great spear... Consider where you plan to be fighting. If you are in the back, near the casters, the only gish that makes sense is an archer. If you are up front with the tanks, and don't have a way to make sure you can always cast, you might as well be playing a warrior. Here is a slight modification on a build I kinda liked -- it puts you just behind the BSF, and protecting the folks in the silk nighties while in range to heal, if need be. Great Spear prof and focus (from War), shield and pike (flaw), extend spell (flaw), combat reflexes (human), combat casting (1st), shield casting (3rd), persist spell (6th), DMM persist (9th), extra turning (12th), Easy metamagic persist (15th), power attack (18th). I was a bit more focused on healing, and was DMMing heals with reach instead of persisting spells. If I was not needed for healing, I kept in position to be a second line of defense for the robes, while poking the bad guys with a reach weapon if I had nothing pressing to do that turn. Not really optimized, but a pretty good combatant and excellent protection for the squishier party members while retaining all the clerical spellcasting.