Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bezhadeath Apr 12, 2009 5:04:24	Guys, Since I was playing a Cavalier/Paladin of tyranny by now, I can't really stand in this party. Everytime I charge, we kill everything with my mate who is Frenzied Berserker Berserk Barbarian, and then he sees nothing else, but me. And Guess what happans. Rogues Hide, Sorcerrer Invisibility, and then I am all alone, if the barbarian fail will, I die. So I decided to rebuild character and to create something like dwarven defender, however, I have never play such character before, so I need some help considering prestige classes and what is good for a first class. I was thinking for Knight, but I am not sure if it is the best way to meet the requirements for dwarven defender. So, I need some suggestions on my build. We play under 3.5 rules and we have 2 rogues , the barbarian , a sorcerrer who has some prestige classes to use cleric spells, meaning that he can heal, and a ranger. What's more, we are all evil party, but I would like some neutral build, LN could do I guess. So, I would be happy if I can get some help considering the starting class and some good prestige classes for further development. Thanks in advance.
#2 zaxter Apr 12, 2009 12:08:09	Make whatever kind of character you want, and buy him a Ring of Invisibility. Problem solved.
#3 pyro_azer Apr 12, 2009 14:03:45	Have the sorc cast grease on the barb. Problem solved.
#4 bezhadeath Apr 13, 2009 8:08:45	Yeah , I didn't know either the spell, either the existence of such a ring. The problem is that I am already level 14, cuz I got killed once in the dungeon, once in the last quest and 2 times killed by the barbarian, so while the party is level 18-21 , I am 14, so after this dungeon, we will probably go to some epic territory, which is the home of the eldery dragons, I will be useless lvl. 14 there, and I can't keep at this dungeon lvl 14. It is neccessary for me to create new character, and that will be a tank I guess. For now, I decided the following build: 7 Knight , 9 Dwarven Defender and 2 Deepwarden from Races of stone, because I have 9 consitution, and I get 9 bonus to AC , instead of the Dex. Modifier from this PrC. I found 7 Knight the best way for entery to Dwarven Defender, since I get ability to challange/taunt opponents, which will be usefull for the party. However, I am quite unsure what feats should I aquire. Any Ideas?
#5 HeavensThunderHammer Apr 13, 2009 11:31:25	If you're looking in terms of pure AC, I think there are some feats in the PHB 2 that gives extra AC for using a shield.
#6 obtusehobbit Apr 13, 2009 11:49:27	If Tome of Battle is allowed go with a Crusader using a Lockdown style build using a reach weapon. That way you are effective fighter, are as tough as nails and can keep people trying to kill you at arms length.
#7 ymuckluck Apr 13, 2009 13:23:53	Put some ranks in bluff and play dead.
#8 bezhadeath Apr 14, 2009 14:00:09	If Tome of Battle is allowed go with a Crusader using a Lockdown style build using a reach weapon. That way you are effective fighter, are as tough as nails and can keep people trying to kill you at arms length. I don't really know this "Lockdown build" . However, it sounds good, can you give me a short explanation what maneurs are needed for this and what level crusader please? And of course, how do I keep high AC at the same time? Atm I think about 7 Knight, then go 9 Dwarven Defender and 2 Deepwarden, since my char. will be lvl. 18.
#9 carnivore Apr 14, 2009 15:05:06	you could try this: Be a PIXIE... get Flight and Greater Invisibility constantly try this: Pixie Ex-Paladin 1/ Blackguard 9 similar to your other character.... but with a lot more stuff: DR 10/ Cold Iron SR 25 Spells Turn Undead :D
#10 obtusehobbit Apr 14, 2009 16:51:49	The basic premise of the lockdown build is to use a reach weapon with the stand still feat and the decisive strike Monk Variant to effectively "Lockdown" you opponents. As a crusader you use the Ticket of Blades stance to get attacks of opportunities against anyone who moves in your threatened area. here is a link to a version of the build and here is the original thread with some other ideas (though unfortuantly the OP deleted a lot of info).
#11 userwithnoname Apr 14, 2009 17:10:49	Well if you want to stay in your meatshield role, taking some feats that can incapacitate the ennemy really help. Inproved trip is pretty darn nice imo. And you get combat expertise wich let you push your AC a bit more. The down side is the requirement of INT 13 (and we all know INT and fighter seldom mix ;) ). And over the fact that you just dumped the guy on his rear, you get a free attack at the same attack bonus. PLUS you get a attack of opportunity if he either get up or try to crawl away. Seriously, if that's not battlefield control (at melee range only, i'll give you that), nothing is. If your dex is high enough (I'd say 14+), you can also add combat reflex. If you use somekind of reach weapon, you get even more out of it. And since "Trip" is a attack action (not a standard action), you can use it while making attacks of opportunity. It won't make you invincible, but that alone really boost the survivability of a tank. And over that, your opponents cannot get full attack seing how they are either getting up or crawling away. I'll also add : get that dumb barbarian something to either get his will save up or immunize him vs mind control. And if he vonluntarily skipped over increasing his "Will" save, you have the right to call him dumb. Game On Mates !
#12 saxis Apr 14, 2009 17:26:30	Doesn't sound like the Berserker was been built right for party play... in which case: the first time he killed someone, your EVIL party should have slaughtered him with no raise. A decently built FB at 18th level should have no problem making his TWO will saves to end a frenzy: one after he kills the last enemy, and another at the start of his next round.
#13 bezhadeath Apr 15, 2009 6:01:41	I really like the lockdown build, and for sure I am going to try it. I have DEX 14 and INT 14 so I am capable of picking those feats that I need. And about the barbarian... well evil party, true, but we can't kill him before he enters in frenzy. And you know... he has 5 or 6 Frenzys per day, that for 15 rounds each, how do you suggest we kill him? Our Sorccerrer is specializet in Healing and Damage spells, he has no calm emotions and I don't really know what spell he has for stopping the barbarian. What's more, even if we kill him, he will kill us then all. He is way too strong for 2 Rogues a Sorcerrer and me the cavalier who dies before being able to charge him And the ranger... he is even more begginer than me, and his hero is quite a crap. We had a Warblade who could kill him in 1 round... but now he is the second DM, so we lost our most precious player. Whatever, I am defenately going to look at this Lockdown build and I guess I am going to make exactly this.
#14 carnivore Apr 15, 2009 8:02:52	i think you should really try the Pixie.. ... it would be a lot of fun, but still very effective... and could contribute to your group very well :D
#15 tt30 Apr 15, 2009 19:19:47	how do you suggest we kill him? Killing frenzied berserkers is not that hard, he has pros and cons: Pros: he is melee monster so he kill all if you melee him He has lot of HP and good fort save Deathless frenzy Cons: He can't activate magic items that require activation while frenzy is on. His AC probably suck at least in frenzy, touch AC definitely suck bad will save Ranged attack or magic attacks? His damage source is power attack Few ways to kill him: First you need to neutralize him so that he can't immediately kill you, if he can't fly it is really easy, just fly and let him cry. Remember he can't activate magic items when he is in frenzy. Even if he can fly you can entange him with magic or few tanglefoot bags (no save against entangle), just throw another before last run out it halves his movement and you can just move and kill him from distance. Entangled can't charge... (If he has bow, sunder it with reach weapon, if he uses throwing weapons, just make sure you outrange him with your ranged attack) Then you can proceed to killing Ranged attaks will do, it takes at least 15 round, but you have time. reach weapon+spring attack will do too. UMD and dorje of Ego Whip until his charisma=0, coup de grace. Use wand of Ray of Stupidity until his int=0, coup de grace Lockdown build have also good chance to survive and win against frenzied berserker, but it is not certain because one miss and he charges and that will hurt, at least if you don't use elusive target feat from complete warrior, but even with it he probably have enough str to one shot you with full attack so better to use tanglefootbags or fly and make sure that it won't happen.
#16 ninjarabbit Apr 15, 2009 19:26:25	Grease is another way of dealing with a FB. FBs automanically fail any dexterity checks they have to make while frenzying.
#17 userwithnoname Apr 15, 2009 21:14:43	Doesn't sound like the Berserker was been built right for party play... in which case: the first time he killed someone, your EVIL party should have slaughtered him with no raise. A decently built FB at 18th level should have no problem making his TWO will saves to end a frenzy: one after he kills the last enemy, and another at the start of his next round. Well technically a trully evil party would have a equal chance of finding that hillarious. Depend on who they liked best ;)
#18 SIKBUZ Apr 16, 2009 3:43:29	Well depending on interpretation "Righteous Wrath" in BoED would allow your friends character to control his Frenzy - as long as he is Raging.
#19 liquid150 Apr 16, 2009 12:52:50	What level is the party? What books can you use?
#20 bezhadeath Apr 16, 2009 14:19:27	We use ALL 3.5 book and we have few ristrictions. We can't use few EPIC feats, and we can't get the Red Wizard PrC and Thayan Knight. I think that's all. Well, the ideas for killing the barbarian are really good and might prove usefull lately, but atm I don't feel endangared, since my AC is around 50, in frenzy it is said that he is trying to do the biggest damage, so he uses at least 10 Power attack, oh with such, he needs 19 or 20 roll to hit me, and still I have 305 HP + 8 DR. Our party is level 18-20. The Shadowdancer/Beguiler/Rogue is level 20, the other who is Assasin is 19, the barbarian needs 3000xp to 20, I am 18 at the beggining , the sorc. is 19 at the beggining and the ranger is 21, because he had luck with the cards in one of the sessions +50,000 XP from a draw. The Pixie isn't bad at all dude, but I am really not sure if I can do all things correct and even all the things I have read about it, I still find it hard to complete the build. Also, I think that this build have one big dissadvantage. The only way I will be able to taunt creatures will be Goad. And Goad has 21DC in my occasion, maybe 23 with Ability Focus feat, but a 23DC on will at level 19 ain't very hard.
#21 liquid150 Apr 16, 2009 14:25:26	At level 18 you should have more than enough cash laying around to have a Ring of Invisibility. Or just hand the sorcerer a short stack of grease scrolls.
#22 dr_rocktopus Apr 16, 2009 20:32:33	Okay, look, here's my say on the matter. Buy him an eagle, cast invisibility on the eagle. Have him fight from the back of the eagle. If he's forced to keep raging, have the eagle carry him stupid-far into the air. If the GM rules he MUST still attack you guys...... :: cackle ::
#23 witigo Apr 17, 2009 2:10:17	The best tank builds are clerics, not fighters. Also, since you're a mostly evil party, you could use the Necrotic Tumor from Libris Mortis and make yourself a loyal frenzy puppy. Just cyst him while he’s sleeping, cast Necrotic Tumor, then tell him to act as he normally would (so you aren't controlling someone else's character). When he turns on you during frenzy, take control of him. I believe the tumor would supersede the rampage, but that may be a DM decision. Now, clerics are better tanks then fighters because of all the wonderful self-buff spells (especially if you make them persistant with divine metamagic). Try persisting necrotic empowerment, righteous might, and divine power. No fighter can come close to that.
#24 dr_rocktopus Apr 17, 2009 2:38:04	Or you could turn him into a Dorfl. ;)
#25 bezhadeath Apr 19, 2009 1:20:00	Well, I found all the buffs you are talking about Witigo, but since I have played a cleric only once, and it was pure cleric level 9, I really have no idea how to make the buffs persistant
#26 muertog Apr 19, 2009 4:37:28	Get some method of flight and just keep out of reach of a grounded barb. Invisibility is even better, but just making sure the barb doesn't carry a ranged weapon while he rages should be sufficient. Some other points to consider: >There are points where staying at a lower level than the party is actually GOOD. You get far more xp than the higher level characters, and should level in a quarter of the time it takes them to level (usually best used when crafting, but other things that take XP can be used). >At level 18, you should be having access to true ressurrection of some sort, which means no more level loss. Just tell the barb he will have to fork out the material component cost of the rez each time he loses control and kills a party member. "You lose control, you pay to fix the problem." >Invisibility is not a cure-all vs a barb, since you can still get perception checks against the invis/move silently AND you can still attack a space that you know a creature is in, even if you can't see it. Listen and Spot checks are Wis based, so are still possible w/ a frenzied berserker Hell, if invisibility solves the issue of a raging barb/berserker, the DM should be throwing creatures w/ access to invisibility (or hide/move silently) against you.
#27 muertog Apr 19, 2009 4:44:07	Another way to solve the barb problem is to put together a grapple-based character. He can't kill you if he can't move or attack, right? Persistent spells (via cleric) is typically done using questionable rulings using Divine MetaMagic (hereafter abbreviated DMM) and massive amounts of turn undead and/or nightsticks. I say questionable, since I have seen some errata material (I need to find the source again) that states that 1) you have to have the base metamagic prior to selecting divine metamagic (thus must have extend and persist before taking DMM persist), 2) you cannot DMM a spell to a level higher than you could normally cast. Don't get me started on nightsticks. :P
#28 witigo Apr 20, 2009 1:06:22	Well, I found all the buffs you are talking about Witigo, but since I have played a cleric only once, and it was pure cleric level 9, I really have no idea how to make the buffs persistant Try something like this: Cleric 6/ Master of Shrouds 10/Contemplative 4 Any race without +LA will do, although I prefer human. Take the the domains Undeath (LM p.60) and Planning (CW p.115), both of which should be available to a follower of Wee Jas. Feats you'll need: Mother Cyst (LM p.28), Persistent Spell (CA p.81), Divine Metamagic (CD p.80), Spell Focus (conjuration) (PHB p.100), Augment Summoning (PHB p.89), and Extra Turning (PHB p.94). Anything else is up to you. So this is all designed for lots of turn attempts. Here's my math: Base should be about 7 (high charisma is very important to this build), +4 from undeath domain, +4 from Master of Shrouds, +4 from extra turning feat, and +4 from ONE nightstick (don't abuse nightsticks) = 23 turn attempts per day. For 7 turn attempts, you can turn any self buff spell into a 24 hour spell (divine metamagic + persistent spell). That means you'll be able to persist the 3 spells I previously listed: Necrotic Empowerment (LM p.68), Divine Power (PHB p.225), and Righteous Might (PHB p 274). You can also persist spells normally by increasing the spell level by six. Divine Favor (PHB p. 225) is the only example that I can think of right now. Also, with Master of Shrouds, I always prefer to summon normal shadows even when when stronger summons become available. Shadows = AWESOME. Incorporeal touch attack that does 1d6 str damage with no save? And ,you get 4 of them per use at higher levels (which means 4d6 str damage to anything living). Good luck with whatever you chose to play!
#29 Grumman Apr 20, 2009 1:52:47	Keep in mind that this is just my opinion, but the first time you were raised after the berserker killed you, you should have got on your horse and run him down like the rabid dog he is.
#30 hijaxx Apr 20, 2009 9:29:10	Shadows=OMFGBBQ! why? because with shadows, every single creature they kill makes a new shadow for your army.
#31 dr_rocktopus Apr 20, 2009 10:11:18	Just use dominate person. He's a BSF who's pretending to be a golem, might as well complete the illusion.