Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sudsymcgee Mar 24, 2008 3:09:57	Mountain Rage (Ex): A goliath barbarian who takes the 1st-level racial substitution level can tap into the mountain’s strength to increase his size and power during a rage. When he rages, his size category increases to Large. (Although his size category increases by one step, the goliath barbarian’s height only increases by a foot or so and his mass only increases by about 30–40%, so his equipment still fi ts normally.) This change increases the barbarian’s space and reach to 10 feet and applies a –1 penalty on attack rolls and to AC. However, he does not gain additional benefi ts on weapon size and grapple checks, since he already has them from his powerful build ability. The goliath barbarian also gains an additional +2 bonus to his Strength when he enters his mountain rage. Mountain rage replaces the standard barbarian’s rage ability, and when a barbarian would normally gain extra uses of the rage ability per day, he instead gains extra uses of the mountain rage ability. However, the barbarian gains these benefi ts in addition to the normal benefi ts and penalties of his rage (+4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 on Will saves, and –2 to AC). The barbarian is also still fatigued for the duration of the encounter when his rage ends. If the goliath barbarian’s rage bonuses improve from other effects (such as greater rage), the extra Strength bonus from mountain rage stacks. The Part in bold is what i am confused about. if I am correct it gives you +4str for mountain rage +2 for large and stacks with the normal +2 for rage. so a total of +8!!!! does this really Break rage this much at lvl1??
#2 nebo Mar 24, 2008 3:51:17	Mountain Rage gives you an additional +2 Strength that stacks with the normal +4, for a total of +6. You can't actually do it at first level because Goliaths are LA +1, but yes, it's very good.
#3 Melcar Jan 21, 2014 6:53:57	he also gets all the normal benefits of increasing in size. +8 str +4 con, -1-attack, -2 dex, +2 natural armor. So when doing this, the barbarian actually gets +14 str when he rages!!! YES PLEASE
#4 StevenO Jan 21, 2014 8:06:36	Woah.   The "normal" benefit for increasing size is reach, grappling/hiding modifiers, and the size adjustment for attack/defense.  Unless it is otherwise specified there are NO stat adjustments made when someone is enlarged by some effect.  Those "normal" benefits you are seeing are what the DM applies to a creature who he has advanced in HD enough to increase in size (at least I think that is were you are getting those numbers) but they would not apply to a creature that is magically enlarged.
#5 Melcar Jan 21, 2014 8:20:30	Why not...? Where does it say so?
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 21, 2014 10:18:59	If I simply change size with an effect that says nothing else except "you change size", it doesn't alter my ability scores at all. It just changes my space, reach, and size modifiers (to attack, AC, grapple, Hide, and so on). Compare the monster size increase table (what I think you're looking at) to the Expansion power, for instance.   Mountain Rage does two things: It increases your Rage Strength bonus from +4 to +6, and it temporarily replaces your Powerful Build ability with actual Large size (you already had all the other benefits of being Large except for the space and reach.) This means a barbarian entering Mountain Rage gets +6 Strength, +4 Con, -2 AC, +2 Will, and the space/reach/size mods of a Large creature (which include an extra -1 Attack and -1 AC; he was probably already using the large size mods for things like bull rushes). He gives up Powerful Build while raging, but the only thing this costs him is the inability to be considered Medium if it were better for him somehow (i.e. if an ally wanted to bring him along with a Dimension Door spell or if he wanted to squeeze through a small space).   Don't believe me? Look at Races of Stone, page 76. Akala Fishstringer Kulie-Kamana's statistics are provided, and he's got Mountain Rage. His Strength goes from 18 to 24 (a +6 increase) while raging, and things like his Constitution and Natural Armor only change exactly how much you'd expect from Rage (i.e. +4 and +0, respectively). There are no changes other than those described in the ability - the monster size table doesn't factor in here at all. Mountain Rage is not the same thing as a monster size increase table.
#7 Melcar Jan 21, 2014 15:33:11	Hmmm... I see your point. I have just always understood the rules in MM1, pertaining to size increase as a given rule to any size increase...
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jan 21, 2014 16:59:29	Melcar wrote:
#9 StevenO Jan 21, 2014 20:04:18	I only noticed this after I posted but this thread started SIX years ago.  Not that I'm one who opposes thread Necromancy but back then we figured the question was answered and had often shone that just increasing size does not grant all those of those other things from the monster advancing in size table.  I mean if you look at the Enlarge Person spell it includes a STR bonus much smaller than that found on the monster advancement table and a DEX penalty but no other ability modifiers despite changing the target's size.