Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Caker Dec 11, 2012 17:06:12	So a friend and I are the last surviving members of our party, and suddenly it is up to us to kill the final boss of the campaign the next time we play. (Don't ask how it skipped ahead this far) He is a 13th level Transmuter/Master Specialist, and I am an 11th level Druid. The characters already exist in the game, but retraining is avaible on feats. The foe is a Wyrm aged black dragon. It has some sort of magical scales that we haven't figured out how they effect it, but we figure they offer some sort of protection from traditional dragon weaknesses (Shivering touch, eat your heart out). It will be the only enemy we will be fighting. We have the standard wealth of our levels. Is this suicide or can it be done?
#2 frost.fire Dec 11, 2012 18:06:09	One answer, baleful polymorph :p
#3 aelryinth Dec 11, 2012 18:15:43	with the right scrolls adn consumables, nothing is impossible. A truly buffed up druid and animal companion can, at level 13, take on a LOT of stuff with the right spells. Just go out and get some scrolls. Two nasty dragon killer spells I can remember. One was Squamos Volley? - the one that shot off AoE green slimes. Killer against huge opponents. The other was that spell that did extra damage based on how much Nat AC the enemy had...and then put a hole in that Nat AC, to boot. Can't remember the name of it. ==Aelryinth
#4 StevenO Dec 11, 2012 18:31:56	It should be suicide.  You're looking at a 13th and 11th level character, which I'd normally rate as the equivalent of a 10th-level party of four, going up against a CR 20 dragon.  You should be screwed. Now despite that you may have a chance.  As two full spellcasters you should be near the peak of potential PC power even before I consider other things.  Do you also have above expect (PB 28) stats because that can make you stronger even if you just have "standard" levels of equipment.  There is also the question about whether or not the Dragon will actually be played to its full potential because if it is you should both end up as sludge. If you can load up on one shots that offer a lot of short term bang for the gold, play your characters very well with some kind of maxed out build, and the DM does a poor job using the dragon you have a chance but I say that only if all the possitive factors are going you way while the dragon gets hit by negatives.  Sorry if I'm not the optimist but you shouldn't have a chance and your characters and DM should all know it.  Maybe one possible saving grace could be if your intelligence on the dragon was wrong and you're actually going to be fighting a much younger dragon; dragons are known to lie about things and many people aren't going to pay a enough attention to tell the difference between a wyrm and say an old or very old (CR 16/18) despite a size difference.
#5 Caker Dec 11, 2012 19:07:08	The dragon will be played somewhat intelligently. I have a lot of gold just siting around, so if there are any items please suggest them. I know that the dragon is in fact a wyrm, because he told me it was CR 21 after the things he added to it. My original idea was to buff my animal companion (fleshraker) to the moon and try to kill the dragon.
#6 StevenO Dec 11, 2012 19:29:36	Unless you can get really luck with some "save or die" effect I think you'll be sludge.  I don't play druids enough to know just how far you could push a Fleshraker but it may be little more then a speed bump to Black Wyrm; don't forget you only count as a Druid 8 with regards to its bonuses (based on what I'm seeing) so unless your spells provide a lot of aid it wouldn't last a round against the dragon. I'll also warn you that playing a Wyrm intelligently means using it's environement to its best advantage; how are you going to hand things if you are swimming of the dragon is flying?
#7 Caker Dec 11, 2012 20:01:31	Natural bond (in our group) let's the flashraker count as level 11 for druid purposes. Also, considering we are two tier 1 casters, handling flight or swimming should not be a problem.
#8 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 21:14:01	I simply don't think there's enough information for a proper answer. Just based on what you've said though, that dragon should crap caustic poo all over you guys. I'd recommend doing some scouting and researching, check out his defenses with detecting, preferably from a distance, possibly through magical observation. Then do knowledge checks, or consult with sages and the like. Try and find out the details for this dragon's stats and act accordingly.
#9 Caker Dec 11, 2012 21:30:34	I'm actually thinking about maximize energy substituting a venomfire and throwing it on my animal companion, along with other buffs from both myself and wizard friend. The venomfire alone will do 200 damage if all of the poison attacks hit (3 of them). So now it is just making a point of going first and making sure that the attacks are acurate. What is the best way to do that?
#10 New-Shadow Dec 11, 2012 21:33:01	There's always summoning a bunch of beholders that alternate between their antimagic and disintagrate rays to sick on the dragon while you either run (for backup/info/proper supplies/more allies/etc) or get your shots in on it while the beholders do the heavy lifting.
#11 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 21:35:01	If you want accurate attacks, true strike is your friend. Start the battle off with one, then quicken the rest. All you need is a lesser rod of quicken, and they are super cheap. That said, I'm really not a fan of using save-based attacks against dragons. Or outsiders, for that matter. Though if he's using scintillating scales as another poster theorized, then touch attacks will be a pain to hit with as well. True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck.
#12 Caker Dec 11, 2012 21:43:19	Venomfire has no save. I am under the impression that if the attack hits, even if they make the save on the poison, they take the extra damage. It deals the damage on each use of the poison, and attacking the dragon is using it.
#13 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 22:56:41	Venomfire has no save. I am under the impression that if the attack hits, even if they make the save on the poison, they take the extra damage. It deals the damage on each use of the poison, and attacking the dragon is using it. Sweet, go hog-wild then.
#14 draco1119 Dec 11, 2012 23:14:21	True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck. Um, what?
#15 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 23:21:30	True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck. Um, what? Damn, no unluck? I swear that there's something in unluck's description that makes it equivalent to being hidden from view. Oh well. Unless the dragon has unluck it doesn't matter.
#16 draco1119 Dec 11, 2012 23:47:05	True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck. Um, what? Damn, no unluck? I swear that there's something in unluck's description that makes it equivalent to being hidden from view. Oh well. Unless the dragon has unluck it doesn't matter. Only concealment.  No incorporeal, no cover (but that tends to be negated by the +20 to hit anyway), etc.
#17 Seeron Dec 12, 2012 1:55:27	There Are good self only buffs Form druids. The wiz should Cast invis On you so you Can stay in range of your companion. Bite of wer... comes to mind. Also If you know the Type of the Dragon buff yourself energy immunity. Tactic is simply: you act as a Mobile buff and heal ward For your companion. The wiz could use polymorph On your companion. And wasnt there a companion only heal for druids? Prepare some of them to get your companion. Also as a transmuter, he should have quite some buffs.Cast entangle to Slow him to half speed and That nasty spell that stops flying. Cant remember the Name and im afb atm. If you also buff energy immunity(fire), Grab alot of Fire seeds scrolls and wrap them around yourself companion For a living suicide Bomber. Can Post More when i come Home
#18 frost.fire Dec 12, 2012 2:47:23	spamming venomfire while pumping up your cl might be a great idea actually
#19 Eld20Generalissimo Dec 12, 2012 4:55:43	How to beat a CR 21 monster as a two person party significantly under-leveled? How about that crazy idea of killing other more CR appropriate stuff in order to level up? Barring that then something like wish cheese would be a good shot, I mean if your dm is blocking shivering but not venomfire then maybe he let something like this also slip through for some reason? If you end up going hp dmg -- not a great option, but let's not kid ourselves as you're being forced into a situation with NO good options anyway-- then I would say hitting him with a Avasculate or maybe even two wouldn't be a total waste.
#20 Seeron Dec 12, 2012 7:25:20	Another suggestion, that came to my mind, is that you will need some kind of misschance on your pet. So get the wizard cast Displacement on him. And the Invisibility trick, is prob the best you could get. Also there are special anti dragon spells like the Antidragon aura (SC p.14) or Hide from Dragons(SC p.114). Also, you can try to weaken the dragon with no save spells like enervation. Be Aware of the SR so your wizard should have Assay spell resistance up. Also Freezing Fog (SC p.99) could something for you.
#21 Caker Dec 12, 2012 9:33:07	I know that the dragon will have some kind of constant true seeing going on, so blur type effects will do nothing. If I am wild shaped into a dire tortoise I will always get a suprise round, and since my animal companion acts on my turn, he will get first dibs at the dragon. Assuming then that the group of us are hidden from dragons, we can just follow it around, buffing as we go, before finally striking.
#22 alsebra Dec 12, 2012 15:09:46	Since the touch AC of a dragon seems to be lower, you may want something that hits that (alchemical thrown items, certain spells, etc.)...I fondly recall bringing down a flying white with a called-shot alchemist's fire long ago (even with the -4, it was still better than a 50% hit chance).
#23 aelryinth Dec 12, 2012 19:41:18	Animal Growth, a scroll of bite of the Werebear, and a scroll of Nature's Avatar combined with Greater Magic Fang should do an excellent job of taking care of your companion's ability to hit. The transmuter should have other buffs like Haste, and Venomfire is of course close to being a game ender right there. Stick enough high level spells together from scrolls, and this won't be a huge fight. Unless it anti-magic shells, of course. then you're hosed. ==Aelryinth
#24 Caker Dec 12, 2012 20:09:17	An oversight on the dire tortoise. Bummer, but it should still be doable.
#25 frost.fire Dec 13, 2012 2:29:26	There's a necklace in one of the faerun books and in dragon that add to wildshape hd, I made a thread awhile back but can't link from my phone.
#26 Caker Dec 13, 2012 12:11:58	Well i'm not trying to be buddy buddy with the dragon, so the -6 penalty literally does not bother me. I will be looking into getting one of those spiffy cloaks.
#27 frost.fire Dec 13, 2012 13:26:40	Thanks for the correction CJ I was afb, but yeah might help ya caker, is venomfire acid damage? If so aren't black dragons immune, aelryinth also raises a good point about one shot items. If its the bbeg then I definitly would do that
#28 Caker Dec 13, 2012 14:47:33	I was going to energy substitute the venomfire into fire damage. Getting knowledge (arcana) onto my list via Knowledge Devotion. Since venomfire is a 3rd level spell, a lesser rod of maximize will get me max damage.
#29 frost.fire Dec 13, 2012 15:46:29	Yeah good call, your pet is a fleshraker right? That's 4 attacks with venom on them if I recall? Should be a solid amount of damage
#30 Caker Dec 13, 2012 16:53:53	A wyrm black dragon has an armor class of 39. So assuming that he has not done anything to enhance the armor of the dragon, hitting it should really not be that big of a problem with a properly built and buffed animal companion. If the dragon has some sort of diplacement effects, true seeing will allow me to get by them. I also always get a suprise round, because I am changed into a dire tortoise, and my animal companion acts on my round. Unless the dragon has been scrying on us and knows we are coming, he will be ill prepared when we waltz in hidden from dragons.
#31 Caker Dec 13, 2012 17:19:25	A black dragon wyrm casts as a 13th level sorcerer, the same level as my wizard friend. Anything it can do, we can also do. As a matter of fact, go read what true seeing does. It will see through superior invis, it will see through blinking. And being a dire tortoise does mean I WILL go first On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round regardless of whether it has been noticed. Edit: Also, the dragon will likely be in the open, considering it is actively trying to destroy everything.
#32 StevenO Dec 13, 2012 17:38:17	I'll just say it is scary how easy some DMs make killing those big old dragons.  It has had a thousand years of experience so it should know all the "tricks" and the counters to those tricks.  The Black Wyrm may only cast as a 13th-level character but it is probably as smart and wise as you and your companion. I'll mention that True Seeing does NOT prevent missing from Blinking.  Blinking is not an illusion that True Seeing can see through.  TS also doesn't penetrate fog or smoke although a dragon's blindsense doesn't have that problem. The Dragon's base 41 AC before it does anything else (Ring of Protection perhaps?) so I don't see your animal companion hitting it as anything close to certain. While you may gain a surprise round that does NOT mean your animal compantion does as well.  The truth its that familiars and companions will make their own surprise/initiative rolls but for the sake of simplicity it is assumed they will delay until their master goes which makes everyone go at the same time.
#33 Caker Dec 13, 2012 17:47:38	True seeing lets you see into the ethereal plane. Blinking brings you back and forth from the ethereal plane and the material plane. True seeing beats blinking. Fog and smoke can also be blown away, and blindsight is also a spell that can be cast. Edit: The fact of the matter is that we have twice the resources of magical abilities than the dragon, and can counter anything he does with magic of our own. What it really comes down to is if I can kill the dragon before he kills us. That is mainly why i came here, wanting to know what would make hitting it easiest, and what I might expect the dragon to have to thwart us.
#34 StevenO Dec 13, 2012 18:02:21	You should read up on the Blink spell.  Even if you can see ethereal creatures physical attacks have a 20% chance of missing.  True Seeing will help against blinking but is not a total counter to blinking. I may also point out that just because YOU can see the dragon that does NOT mean you animal companion can.  Notice the distance limitations on Share Spells.
#35 Caker Dec 13, 2012 18:10:08	I will not be attacking the dragon, or getting anywhere near it. A rod of chain spell can give all 3 of us true seeing if it is really needed. My animal companion will be the only one hitting it. I can give my animal companion an amulet of natural weapons with the ghost touch enchantment, and he will have no miss chance against a blinking dragon.
#36 Caker Dec 13, 2012 19:21:42	Now let's step back for a minute shall we? Do you honestly think, that ANY DM who is not a total ass, is going to throw a fully optimized dragon at TWO lower level casters? Vastly lower level at that. The campaign isn't even high OP to begin with. In a vacuum this should not be a close fight, but this isn't a vacuum, this is an actual campaign with actual, reasonable, people. If this was a vacuum I would be abusing cheese much more heavily and not even have asked.
#37 Caker Dec 13, 2012 20:02:39	The thing is, I have never used venomfire before in the campaign. Nor have I been over oppressive in my use of the druid. Win or lose, the campaign is over. It would be futile for me not to try everything in my power to try and kill this thing. I fully expect it to be a tough fight, and do not think there is a great chance that we will be able to kill the thing, but if he didn't hold back at all it would be no better than a 'rocks fall, everyone dies' scenario.
#42 frost.fire Dec 11, 2012 18:06:09	One answer, baleful polymorph :p
#43 aelryinth Dec 11, 2012 18:15:43	with the right scrolls adn consumables, nothing is impossible. A truly buffed up druid and animal companion can, at level 13, take on a LOT of stuff with the right spells. Just go out and get some scrolls. Two nasty dragon killer spells I can remember. One was Squamos Volley? - the one that shot off AoE green slimes. Killer against huge opponents. The other was that spell that did extra damage based on how much Nat AC the enemy had...and then put a hole in that Nat AC, to boot. Can't remember the name of it. ==Aelryinth
#44 StevenO Dec 11, 2012 18:31:56	It should be suicide.  You're looking at a 13th and 11th level character, which I'd normally rate as the equivalent of a 10th-level party of four, going up against a CR 20 dragon.  You should be screwed. Now despite that you may have a chance.  As two full spellcasters you should be near the peak of potential PC power even before I consider other things.  Do you also have above expect (PB 28) stats because that can make you stronger even if you just have "standard" levels of equipment.  There is also the question about whether or not the Dragon will actually be played to its full potential because if it is you should both end up as sludge. If you can load up on one shots that offer a lot of short term bang for the gold, play your characters very well with some kind of maxed out build, and the DM does a poor job using the dragon you have a chance but I say that only if all the possitive factors are going you way while the dragon gets hit by negatives.  Sorry if I'm not the optimist but you shouldn't have a chance and your characters and DM should all know it.  Maybe one possible saving grace could be if your intelligence on the dragon was wrong and you're actually going to be fighting a much younger dragon; dragons are known to lie about things and many people aren't going to pay a enough attention to tell the difference between a wyrm and say an old or very old (CR 16/18) despite a size difference.
#45 Caker Dec 11, 2012 19:07:08	The dragon will be played somewhat intelligently. I have a lot of gold just siting around, so if there are any items please suggest them. I know that the dragon is in fact a wyrm, because he told me it was CR 21 after the things he added to it. My original idea was to buff my animal companion (fleshraker) to the moon and try to kill the dragon.
#46 StevenO Dec 11, 2012 19:29:36	Unless you can get really luck with some "save or die" effect I think you'll be sludge.  I don't play druids enough to know just how far you could push a Fleshraker but it may be little more then a speed bump to Black Wyrm; don't forget you only count as a Druid 8 with regards to its bonuses (based on what I'm seeing) so unless your spells provide a lot of aid it wouldn't last a round against the dragon. I'll also warn you that playing a Wyrm intelligently means using it's environement to its best advantage; how are you going to hand things if you are swimming of the dragon is flying?
#47 Caker Dec 11, 2012 20:01:31	Natural bond (in our group) let's the flashraker count as level 11 for druid purposes. Also, considering we are two tier 1 casters, handling flight or swimming should not be a problem.
#48 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 21:14:01	I simply don't think there's enough information for a proper answer. Just based on what you've said though, that dragon should crap caustic poo all over you guys. I'd recommend doing some scouting and researching, check out his defenses with detecting, preferably from a distance, possibly through magical observation. Then do knowledge checks, or consult with sages and the like. Try and find out the details for this dragon's stats and act accordingly.
#49 Caker Dec 11, 2012 21:30:34	I'm actually thinking about maximize energy substituting a venomfire and throwing it on my animal companion, along with other buffs from both myself and wizard friend. The venomfire alone will do 200 damage if all of the poison attacks hit (3 of them). So now it is just making a point of going first and making sure that the attacks are acurate. What is the best way to do that?
#50 New-Shadow Dec 11, 2012 21:33:01	There's always summoning a bunch of beholders that alternate between their antimagic and disintagrate rays to sick on the dragon while you either run (for backup/info/proper supplies/more allies/etc) or get your shots in on it while the beholders do the heavy lifting.
#51 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 21:35:01	If you want accurate attacks, true strike is your friend. Start the battle off with one, then quicken the rest. All you need is a lesser rod of quicken, and they are super cheap. That said, I'm really not a fan of using save-based attacks against dragons. Or outsiders, for that matter. Though if he's using scintillating scales as another poster theorized, then touch attacks will be a pain to hit with as well. True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck.
#52 Caker Dec 11, 2012 21:43:19	Venomfire has no save. I am under the impression that if the attack hits, even if they make the save on the poison, they take the extra damage. It deals the damage on each use of the poison, and attacking the dragon is using it.
#53 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 22:56:41	Venomfire has no save. I am under the impression that if the attack hits, even if they make the save on the poison, they take the extra damage. It deals the damage on each use of the poison, and attacking the dragon is using it. Sweet, go hog-wild then.
#54 draco1119 Dec 11, 2012 23:14:21	True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck. Um, what?
#55 zaramon Dec 11, 2012 23:21:30	True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck. Um, what? Damn, no unluck? I swear that there's something in unluck's description that makes it equivalent to being hidden from view. Oh well. Unless the dragon has unluck it doesn't matter.
#56 draco1119 Dec 11, 2012 23:47:05	True strike should help but it likely won't be the auto-hit that it usually is. Fun fact it also negates miss chance, from cover, to illusion, to unluck. Um, what? Damn, no unluck? I swear that there's something in unluck's description that makes it equivalent to being hidden from view. Oh well. Unless the dragon has unluck it doesn't matter. Only concealment.  No incorporeal, no cover (but that tends to be negated by the +20 to hit anyway), etc.
#57 Seeron Dec 12, 2012 1:55:27	There Are good self only buffs Form druids. The wiz should Cast invis On you so you Can stay in range of your companion. Bite of wer... comes to mind. Also If you know the Type of the Dragon buff yourself energy immunity. Tactic is simply: you act as a Mobile buff and heal ward For your companion. The wiz could use polymorph On your companion. And wasnt there a companion only heal for druids? Prepare some of them to get your companion. Also as a transmuter, he should have quite some buffs.Cast entangle to Slow him to half speed and That nasty spell that stops flying. Cant remember the Name and im afb atm. If you also buff energy immunity(fire), Grab alot of Fire seeds scrolls and wrap them around yourself companion For a living suicide Bomber. Can Post More when i come Home
#58 frost.fire Dec 12, 2012 2:47:23	spamming venomfire while pumping up your cl might be a great idea actually
#59 Eld20Generalissimo Dec 12, 2012 4:55:43	How to beat a CR 21 monster as a two person party significantly under-leveled? How about that crazy idea of killing other more CR appropriate stuff in order to level up? Barring that then something like wish cheese would be a good shot, I mean if your dm is blocking shivering but not venomfire then maybe he let something like this also slip through for some reason? If you end up going hp dmg -- not a great option, but let's not kid ourselves as you're being forced into a situation with NO good options anyway-- then I would say hitting him with a Avasculate or maybe even two wouldn't be a total waste.
#60 Seeron Dec 12, 2012 7:25:20	Another suggestion, that came to my mind, is that you will need some kind of misschance on your pet. So get the wizard cast Displacement on him. And the Invisibility trick, is prob the best you could get. Also there are special anti dragon spells like the Antidragon aura (SC p.14) or Hide from Dragons(SC p.114). Also, you can try to weaken the dragon with no save spells like enervation. Be Aware of the SR so your wizard should have Assay spell resistance up. Also Freezing Fog (SC p.99) could something for you.
#61 Caker Dec 12, 2012 9:33:07	I know that the dragon will have some kind of constant true seeing going on, so blur type effects will do nothing. If I am wild shaped into a dire tortoise I will always get a suprise round, and since my animal companion acts on my turn, he will get first dibs at the dragon. Assuming then that the group of us are hidden from dragons, we can just follow it around, buffing as we go, before finally striking.
#62 alsebra Dec 12, 2012 15:09:46	Since the touch AC of a dragon seems to be lower, you may want something that hits that (alchemical thrown items, certain spells, etc.)...I fondly recall bringing down a flying white with a called-shot alchemist's fire long ago (even with the -4, it was still better than a 50% hit chance).
#63 aelryinth Dec 12, 2012 19:41:18	Animal Growth, a scroll of bite of the Werebear, and a scroll of Nature's Avatar combined with Greater Magic Fang should do an excellent job of taking care of your companion's ability to hit. The transmuter should have other buffs like Haste, and Venomfire is of course close to being a game ender right there. Stick enough high level spells together from scrolls, and this won't be a huge fight. Unless it anti-magic shells, of course. then you're hosed. ==Aelryinth
#64 Caker Dec 12, 2012 20:09:17	An oversight on the dire tortoise. Bummer, but it should still be doable.
#65 frost.fire Dec 13, 2012 2:29:26	There's a necklace in one of the faerun books and in dragon that add to wildshape hd, I made a thread awhile back but can't link from my phone.
#66 Caker Dec 13, 2012 12:11:58	Well i'm not trying to be buddy buddy with the dragon, so the -6 penalty literally does not bother me. I will be looking into getting one of those spiffy cloaks.
#67 frost.fire Dec 13, 2012 13:26:40	Thanks for the correction CJ I was afb, but yeah might help ya caker, is venomfire acid damage? If so aren't black dragons immune, aelryinth also raises a good point about one shot items. If its the bbeg then I definitly would do that
#68 Caker Dec 13, 2012 14:47:33	I was going to energy substitute the venomfire into fire damage. Getting knowledge (arcana) onto my list via Knowledge Devotion. Since venomfire is a 3rd level spell, a lesser rod of maximize will get me max damage.
#69 frost.fire Dec 13, 2012 15:46:29	Yeah good call, your pet is a fleshraker right? That's 4 attacks with venom on them if I recall? Should be a solid amount of damage
#70 Caker Dec 13, 2012 16:53:53	A wyrm black dragon has an armor class of 39. So assuming that he has not done anything to enhance the armor of the dragon, hitting it should really not be that big of a problem with a properly built and buffed animal companion. If the dragon has some sort of diplacement effects, true seeing will allow me to get by them. I also always get a suprise round, because I am changed into a dire tortoise, and my animal companion acts on my round. Unless the dragon has been scrying on us and knows we are coming, he will be ill prepared when we waltz in hidden from dragons.
#71 Caker Dec 13, 2012 17:19:25	A black dragon wyrm casts as a 13th level sorcerer, the same level as my wizard friend. Anything it can do, we can also do. As a matter of fact, go read what true seeing does. It will see through superior invis, it will see through blinking. And being a dire tortoise does mean I WILL go first On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round regardless of whether it has been noticed. Edit: Also, the dragon will likely be in the open, considering it is actively trying to destroy everything.
#72 StevenO Dec 13, 2012 17:38:17	I'll just say it is scary how easy some DMs make killing those big old dragons.  It has had a thousand years of experience so it should know all the "tricks" and the counters to those tricks.  The Black Wyrm may only cast as a 13th-level character but it is probably as smart and wise as you and your companion. I'll mention that True Seeing does NOT prevent missing from Blinking.  Blinking is not an illusion that True Seeing can see through.  TS also doesn't penetrate fog or smoke although a dragon's blindsense doesn't have that problem. The Dragon's base 41 AC before it does anything else (Ring of Protection perhaps?) so I don't see your animal companion hitting it as anything close to certain. While you may gain a surprise round that does NOT mean your animal compantion does as well.  The truth its that familiars and companions will make their own surprise/initiative rolls but for the sake of simplicity it is assumed they will delay until their master goes which makes everyone go at the same time.
#73 Caker Dec 13, 2012 17:47:38	True seeing lets you see into the ethereal plane. Blinking brings you back and forth from the ethereal plane and the material plane. True seeing beats blinking. Fog and smoke can also be blown away, and blindsight is also a spell that can be cast. Edit: The fact of the matter is that we have twice the resources of magical abilities than the dragon, and can counter anything he does with magic of our own. What it really comes down to is if I can kill the dragon before he kills us. That is mainly why i came here, wanting to know what would make hitting it easiest, and what I might expect the dragon to have to thwart us.
#74 StevenO Dec 13, 2012 18:02:21	You should read up on the Blink spell.  Even if you can see ethereal creatures physical attacks have a 20% chance of missing.  True Seeing will help against blinking but is not a total counter to blinking. I may also point out that just because YOU can see the dragon that does NOT mean you animal companion can.  Notice the distance limitations on Share Spells.
#75 Caker Dec 13, 2012 18:10:08	I will not be attacking the dragon, or getting anywhere near it. A rod of chain spell can give all 3 of us true seeing if it is really needed. My animal companion will be the only one hitting it. I can give my animal companion an amulet of natural weapons with the ghost touch enchantment, and he will have no miss chance against a blinking dragon.
#76 Caker Dec 13, 2012 19:21:42	Now let's step back for a minute shall we? Do you honestly think, that ANY DM who is not a total ass, is going to throw a fully optimized dragon at TWO lower level casters? Vastly lower level at that. The campaign isn't even high OP to begin with. In a vacuum this should not be a close fight, but this isn't a vacuum, this is an actual campaign with actual, reasonable, people. If this was a vacuum I would be abusing cheese much more heavily and not even have asked.
#77 Caker Dec 13, 2012 20:02:39	The thing is, I have never used venomfire before in the campaign. Nor have I been over oppressive in my use of the druid. Win or lose, the campaign is over. It would be futile for me not to try everything in my power to try and kill this thing. I fully expect it to be a tough fight, and do not think there is a great chance that we will be able to kill the thing, but if he didn't hold back at all it would be no better than a 'rocks fall, everyone dies' scenario.