Last session was pretty much insane as we where a 12th level party encountering 1 Fire Elemental Monolith , 3 Huge fire elementals and 1 Balor.
Difficult enough, but our DM has basicly banned all classes and combinations that are "too" powerful.
Anyways, it`s always fun to play D&D, though dieing so often kinda sucks.
What im looking for is a build which is powerful, but not in a too obvious way, and with a good escape possibility.
Eberron Campaign setting
12 level to use ( +LA races should really compliment the build )
32 point buy
Core books
Complete Books
Races books
Eberron books
Not allowed:
Vile darkness
Libris mortis
Tome of battle
Dragon Magazines
Fighters and monks: Sword and fist
Dragon races book and Draconomicon
Important
No Prestige dips allowed, all PrC`s must be completed. ( which make good builds even more challenging )
Any good build to wack out following these set of rules ?
Any and all good ideas are more than welcome :D
Once we get an idea for what you want, then we can suggest builds on how to make it powerful.
Or a Hellfire Warlock
There's always a sorcerer. Check my sig if you're interested.
Step 2 - Use the Races of the Eberron Warforged Artificer Alternate Class Features.
Step 3 - Win D&D.
I always suggest war weavers in this situation. But you may not be able to get them allowed...
Step 1 - Warforged Artificer 20.
Step 2 - Use the Races of the Eberron Warforged Artificer Alternate Class Features.
Step 3 - Win D&D.
Having just read through exactly what infusions can do for the first time, I will give this a big +1. (Yeah, I know I'm behind. Sue me. :P ). I'd seen artificers just WTFPWN stuff in games, but never really looked into the mechanics of how they do it. The class is basically made to WTFPWN everything. You don't even have to try hard.
Our party in general is fond of rolling dices, and off course that leads to many times attacking enemies faster than one should.
I understand our DM very well, sometimes he need to set the example that offence isnt allways the right way to go.
But he do have a nasty tendency of going overboard.
I like classes with some roleplaying aspect, like a Bard which have been a good favourite of mine for some time.
Going power characters is also tons of fun, trick is to not let off all the steam, showing how nasty the build really is ( then it doesn`t take long before a high level wizard comes knocking on the door ).
The artificer has been nerfed like crazy, Dm only allows max 1 metamagic feat to be applied to any item, so its not so tempting to play.
I was thinking maybe going Caster class with lots of defence and buff potential, maybe Cleric build with melee power or Arcane Melee.
Bard may also work, but im a bit tired of playing bard.
Great input so far, thanks. :D
The artificer has been nerfed like crazy, Dm only allows max 1 metamagic feat to be applied to any item, so its not so tempting to play.
That's not much of a nerf. Is that the only one? Ok, let's pick Persistant. :P The crazy infusions that let you change the bonus type on an item, and add special abilities to armor and weapons are just nuts, too.
We're fighting red dragons today? Ok, here guys, have some Freezing Magebane Dragonbane weapons. And let me add Fire Resistance to your armor. And while we're at it, let's change the bonuses on your Cloaks of Resistance to Luck, and then have the cleric hit us all with Greater Resistance spells. Oh wait, we don't need a cleric. I can just use this wand, without burning any charges!
WTF were they smoking when they designed this class? It could take the Lightning Warrior's lunch money and laugh at him.
Wizards with very high Dc from various sources, also not good.
Artificers with theire insane powers, most likely banned next session.
Basicly, very powerful but more so disguised powers, a very inteligent build could really make my day in hopes of surviving more than 2 sessions :D
Basicly if ure hitting 100+ damage a round with a melee class, it`s gonna get banned.
Wizards with very high Dc from various sources, also not good.
Artificers with theire insane powers, most likely banned next session.
Basicly, very powerful but more so disguised powers, a very inteligent build could really make my day in hopes of surviving more than 2 sessions :D
So let me get this right... any competant melee fighter is out of the question if it can inflict damage, a wizard with offensive spells is out of the question unless the enemy can make the saves... banned artificers is understandable though I suppose
It looks like you'll be stuck with playing something with just amazing defences, if your DM wont let you have offensive powers. I mean... 100+ damage for a 12th level character isn't even that high...
What sort of power level are the other characters in the party (just to get an idea of what might be allowed) ?
Changling Wizard5/Recaster5/Fatespinner2
Primarily use spells like evards, solid fog, and especially shivering touch, as they offer no save. Make sure to pick up a Belt of Battle, and if you can afford it a Circlet of Rapid Casting.
With recaster you will be able to Empower and Maximize spells for free 5 times a day, and you have a fake Quicken 5 times a day (reduces the spells duration to 1 round). You also get a version of Scult Spell 5 times a day that can also be used to make atouch spell into a ray. For the recaster's expanded knowledge, try and get Favour of the Matyr so you can use Celerity with no drawback.
If your DM wont allow that, try and get Arcane Fusion so you can get in a 2 spell combo with one action (true strike + metamorphic-reached shivering touch is good). If he wont let you take that, try Murderous Mist, as even if it lasts 1 round it still causes permanent blindness.
When you've stacked on Greater Mage Armour, Alter Self (tren preferably but a trog will do), Scintilating Scales, Shield (or buy a mithral githcraft shield), Anticipate Teleport, Greater Resistance, Heart of Water/Fire/Earth... well you should be reasonably tough. I play a similar build in two games (8th and 11th level) and have easily the best AC and defences in both parties.
With Abrupt Jaunt acp, and Anticipate Teleport (which lasts 24hrs) you will rarely be unable to escape any given situation.
I'd suggest for alternate class features;
Abrupt Jaunt (replaces familiar - it'll die anyway if you're fighting Balors!)
Martial Mage (replace Scribe Scroll with Improved Initiative)
Spontaneous Divination (replaces lvl.5 bonus feat)
Focused Specialist (give up extra school, more spells per day)
Sorry about the post being a bit rambling there... the only important sourcebook not on your list of allowed or banned sources is Frostburn.
*edit - forgot to mention, you get bluff from recaster, and sleight of hand from fatespinner, so you can also be a socially active character as well as getting skill tricks Conceal Spellcasting and False Theurgy.
So let me get this right... any competant melee fighter is out of the question if it can inflict damage, a wizard with offensive spells is out of the question unless the enemy can make the saves... banned artificers is understandable though I suppose
It looks like you'll be stuck with playing something with just amazing defences, if your DM wont let you have offensive powers. I mean... 100+ damage for a 12th level character isn't even that high...
What sort of power level are the other characters in the party (just to get an idea of what might be allowed) ?
Have the entire party play commoners in protest.
"where a 12th level party encountering 1 Fire Elemental Monolith , 3 Huge fire elementals and 1 Balor."
Fire Elemental Monolith = CR 17
3 Huge Fire Elementals = (CR 7 x3) CR 10
Balor = CR 20
total Encounter = CR 21= EPIC LEVEL encounter ..... he may not really understand how this game works ....especially if he is nerfing the players at the same time ..... the goal for the DM is NOT JUST TO KILL THE PLAYERS... it is to set up encounters for them to experience.... some encounters they should be able to defeat, some they need to run away from
i think that you would do better to sit down with him and go over the Encounter/ CR charts in the DMG.... if he continues with the ridiculous CR encounters... request that he not Ban things that will allow your characters to survive....
for you.... here is a fun character that might help:
Changeling
Show
Changeling(Eb p12)(RoE p41)(MM3 p24)
• Fav Class: Rogue
• Humanoid (shapechanger)
• Medium size
• 30’ movement
• Standard Vision
• +2 Racial bonus on saves vs. Sleep and Charm effects
• ‘Speak Language’ is always in-class.
• +2 Racial bonus on Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks.
• Minor Change Shape (Su) – Disguise Self at will as a Full Round Action. This is a Transformation, not an Illusion. The Changeling’s body changes, but not its possessions. The change is permanent until willingly changed. Use of this ability grants a +10 Circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.
• Fav Class: Rogue
• Humanoid (shapechanger)
• Medium size
• 30’ movement
• Standard Vision
• +2 Racial bonus on saves vs. Sleep and Charm effects
• ‘Speak Language’ is always in-class.
• +2 Racial bonus on Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks.
• Minor Change Shape (Su) – Disguise Self at will as a Full Round Action. This is a Transformation, not an Illusion. The Changeling’s body changes, but not its possessions. The change is permanent until willingly changed. Use of this ability grants a +10 Circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.
I have already suggested a Chameleon build. Away with you, sirrah! Away! (Also, you forgot about recommending a wand of Nerveskitter)
Anyways, you may also want to consider Beguiler4/Rainbow Servant10, doable with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell. Doesn't peak until level 14, but hey, getting 3 domains before then certainly doesn't hurt, especially considering that one of the domains gives you Holy Word and another gives you Dictum.
Basicly if ure hitting 100+ damage a round with a melee class, it`s gonna get banned.
So Rogue is banned?
Rogue 20, 1h-wielding a rapier, will, if all strikes hit vs. a flanked opponent, deal an average of 38.5 * 3, or 115.5 average damage per round, without crits.
How do you calculate crit damage, anyway?
And that's about as sub-optimal as you can get, damage-wise. Heck, with a, say, +3 flaming rapier, it's 90 with just two hits! Madness!
Let's check fighter - say, sword & board, STR should be about 26 if he really sucks, at this point, so 1d8+8+3+1d6, or 19 damage per hit.
4 hits, so that's 76 damage. Legal within houserules.
Without haste,
while being under-equipped,
and badly built.
Oh, and you're not allowed to power-attack for more than 6 points. Ever.
3 points for 2HW.
Being hasted is forbidden.
*sigh*
Maybe you should suggest E6 for your DM....
Wizards with very high Dc from various sources, also not good.
That's okay - certain wizards don't need DCs.
Lemmee guess... Polymorph et al is banned, too.
I second E6.
It sounds like your DM is a sore loser with a serious chip on his shoulder. He doesn't want you to win fights, so I recommend quitting his game or accepting the fact that you're probably not going to win fights.
The DM is just another player. He's cheating anyways. I second this notion.
Cleric 4/Fighter4/Dwarven Defender10/Hammer of Moradin2 *or another cleric and fighter level*
Bab Fort Ref Will Feats/Special
1 Fighter 1 2 0 0 Dodge, Iron Will
2 Fighter 2 3 0 0 Toughness
3 Fighter 3 3 1 1 Endurance
4 Fighter 4 4 1 1 Weapon Focus: Warhammer
5 Cleric 4 6 1 3 Turn Undead
6 Cleric 5 7 1 4 Steadfast Determination
7 Cleric 6/1 7 2 4
8 Cleric 7/2 8 2 4
9 D.D 8/3 10 2 6 Roll with it 2-, Ac1, Def St.
10 D.D 9/4 11 2 6 Uncanny Dodge
11 D.D 10/5 11 3 6
12 D.D 11/6/1 12 3 7 Ac2, Roll with it 4-
13 D.D 12/7/2 12 3 7
14 D.D 13/8/3 13 4 8 DR3, Def awareness
15 D.D 14/9/4 13 4 8 Ac3, Roll with it 6-
16 D.D 15/10/5 14 4 9
17 D.D 16/11/6/1 14 5 9
18 D.D 17/11/7/2 15 5 10 DR6, Roll with it 8
19 HoM 18/12/8/2 17 5 12 AuraCourage, Hammer Throw
20 HoM 19/13/9/3 18 5 13 Goblin Killer, Hammer Return
Basically the point is to stack con as high as you can, and then keep adding your bonuses to con as you level. By level 12, you can have a very high ac, very high hitpoints, and damage reduction. This is a pretty vanilla build, so it should pass your Dm's approval test. Steadfast determination uses your con bonus instead of your wis bonus for your will save.
I suggest you pick Protection and Law as your domains. You'll get 5 cantrips, 4 1st level spells plus your domain, and 3 second level spells plus your domain. And you get access to bulls str/bears endurance, and healing spells.
While this build won't be big on the damage meter, it sounds like you'll probably need to be able to survive the first round while your party dies so you can beg for clemency :fight!:
With Fullplate, a Tower shield, and defensive stance, at 12th level you can sit at (10base+8armor+4shield+4def.stance+2ac bonus+1dodge) 29 ac before magical modifiers vs 1 opponent, or 28 vs all the others. If you're starting out with level-appropriate wealth, you can pick up 88,000 gold worth of protection. Or a +7 armor, and a +6 shield, for an ac of (28+5+5) 38 ac vs everyone, 39 if you have +1 dex, 40 vs a single target, and a +2 and +1 bonus for whatever else you want to throw on there.
Stats:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
This guy isn't very sneaky, but he's like a cockroach. You keep stepping on him, but he won't die. You should have something around 150 hp at 12th level, before bears endurance.
*** edited for poor grammar
The DM is just another player. He's cheating anyways. I second this notion.
Understand that if you lead a mutiny, there's a chance people will make you the next GM.
Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Ranger 2-3/Deepwarden (RoS p. 105) 7
(If you can use PHB II, use 3 knight levels and settle for Deepwarden 5)
Class features:
2 fighter bonus feats
Ranger class features and skills, to qualify for deepwarden.
Track, swift tracker (from Deepwarden)
Stone Warden: This is the gravy. Con to AC instead of Dex.
Trap Sense +3, Uncanny Dodge
SLAs: Sending and Animal Messenger, at will. (Sending is great).
Stubborn Mind - two saves vs. Enchantment effects.
BaB +12, base fort +11, base ref +5, base will +6, 82 skill points + Int bonus.
Suggested feats:
Dwarven armor familiarity - wear the heaviest stuff, your Con bonus to AC is not limited by armor. Take the armor optimization feats too, if you feel like it.
Dodge, Titanfighting: Your Dodge feat gives you +4 if the designated opponent is larger.
Go two-weapon fighting, with oversized 2w fighting from the complete warrior (to get 2-for-1 Power Attack), go with Brutal Throw. Or go sword-and board, if you can get PHBII feats.
Like for instance, I played a NE cleric of The Dark six, I took advantage of the other players tricking em to play 2x the cost of scrolls of higher level ( Restoration etc ), tricked em to buy theire way in under my religion and told them they would get great benefits from my spells at higher level. ( basicly I just made up a weird as god and a domain and told em, yeah dudes give me money and you will get lots of powers )
Off course I allways buffed and healed em under fights so I could easier build up "trust" to earn more money :D
Anyways, our DM is a good dm, and its allways lots of fun playing.
Though we have 3 guys only going min/max and number crunching to get some insane damage bonuses and so forth.
So I also in some way understand our DM when a level 10 charater charges a enemy with pounce and giving over 400 damage in one round.
Though a smarter encounter would be a wise choice for a DM if you know the players can wipe the floor with just about anything u send on em.
I would send several smaller encounters on the party beforehand, limiting theire resources substantionally.
Then when they met the real deal, it would be quite harder to defeat.
We played 8 sessions in 8 days a while back , I had to make 9 characters, I died every session and twice in one.
So you see, I need a really smart build as I am afraid my dervish build not gonna make it through a whole session.
I can mention things like I had a really powerful 7th level Dwarf in 2nd edition, before we really had gotten started the DM told me that all the others had gone to the nearest city to get supplies.
Off course I said I would head on the same way, then he said " while u where walking there you saw a cave to the left side a little up the mountain", I went in and met a beholder, first effect I got on me was a effect that kills any character below 8th level..... so splat... I had to make a new one.
The battle sorcerer / Abjurant champion looks really interesting, lots of defensive capabilities, should be possible to survive. :D
Focused Specialist Abjurer 10 / Initiate of the sevenfold veil 2
This build idea is tempting, though race choice and item choice I want to be complimenting a build like this or something in the same direction.
12 levels, 88000 gp to spend, no +la race
16,16,16,13,13,10
Or if there is a better idea, im all open.
9th level spells by level 14. I could do better easily, but I'm distracted..
If you can go for a necropolitan dread necromancer/walker in the wastes. If you can get there I think you could get Dry Lich by level 15. That should help with the dieing problem. (5 phylacteries!)
You could be tricky and just adventure in a zombie that you majic Jar'd into, and add another layer of notkillable.
What about templates, are they allowed if no +LA?
If you can go for a necropolitan dread necromancer/walker in the wastes. If you can get there I think you could get Dry Lich by level 15. That should help with the dieing problem. (5 phylacteries!)
You could be tricky and just adventure in a zombie that you majic Jar'd into, and add another layer of notkillable.
You can get into WitW at level 3 as a cleric, and be a Dry Lich by 13th.
I like Magic Jar, also. The Sin-Envy domain from Dragon Magazine can get you that spell as a cleric, and I think the alternative class feature Divine Magician (Complete Mage, I think) could, also.
If necropolitan is not allowed, again cleric so you can heal yourself, AND get some DMM cheesey cheese if you want to go overboard.
Crazy lich walking down the street with ridiculus buffs on. Go ahead and worship mystra and get some Cheater of mystra going.
Understand that if you lead a mutiny, there's a chance people will make you the next GM.
Then let us lead a revolution, comrades, and build for ourselves a better world!
Show
Arise, ye players, from your slumbers
For the tyrants fear your might
For reason in revolt now thunders
A better world's in sight
No more falsehood's chains shall bind us,
Eager masses, arise! Arise!
We’ll change henceforth the old consensus
And spurn it's dust to optimize.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight, let us face
The Optimizationale
Unite the human race.
'Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The optimizers perferct
Shall be the human race
Let no one build walls to divide us,
Walls of Force, nor Walls of Stone.
Come greet the dawn and stand beside us,
We'll game together or we'll die alone.
In our world poisoned by misconception,
Those who have strayed, now they must learn!
And end our wasteful actions,
Our campaign we cannot spurn.
So come brothers and sisters,
For the struggle carries on.
The Optimizationale,
Unites the world in song.
So comrades, come rally,
For this is the time and place!
The Optimizers rightly,
Unite us all in pace.
For the tyrants fear your might
For reason in revolt now thunders
A better world's in sight
No more falsehood's chains shall bind us,
Eager masses, arise! Arise!
We’ll change henceforth the old consensus
And spurn it's dust to optimize.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight, let us face
The Optimizationale
Unite the human race.
'Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The optimizers perferct
Shall be the human race
Let no one build walls to divide us,
Walls of Force, nor Walls of Stone.
Come greet the dawn and stand beside us,
We'll game together or we'll die alone.
In our world poisoned by misconception,
Those who have strayed, now they must learn!
And end our wasteful actions,
Our campaign we cannot spurn.
So come brothers and sisters,
For the struggle carries on.
The Optimizationale,
Unites the world in song.
So comrades, come rally,
For this is the time and place!
The Optimizers rightly,
Unite us all in pace.