That being said I definitely love the flavor and feel for the War Weaver. I'm looking for help in building it up from level 1 and I would like to be viable as much as possible within the limitations of me also having munchkinism. It's hard for me NOT to min/max, but I don't want a super stinky pile of cheese either. Unless it's not obvious to anyone but me, which I'm fine with.
The GM has said that pretty much any and all books are fine. I'm most likely going to get Venerable, especially since I don't really have aging penalties due to my Dragon Wraught nature. I'd like the build to be more about empowering my allies, and disabling/neutralizing threats than doing heaps of damage. Of course, I don't mind negotiating that fact if it helps prevent me from being a smear on the ground ;) If you have any other questions about what it is I am looking for please feel free to ask.
There are a lot of great thinkers in this forum and I appreciate all that you are doing to help me. I haven't played a serious caster class since probably 2nd edition, so it's been a while and I'm not too familiar with a lot of the caster builds/options/gear etc... Thank in advance! ;)
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 1/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 4/Whatever +CL 5
That gets you a final sorcerer (actual) CL of 20.
If I could get away with it, I'd add Loredrake to the mix, to up that to 22.
I also think that Spellguard of Silverymoon is a good 4 or 5 level finish to the build, but only if you can work in or ignore the flavor text. As a DM, in non-faerun campaigns, I've always used that as a generic military caster PrC like War Weaver or War Mage (from Dragonlance), War Mage also makes a good 5 level prc dip at the end.
The key to Sorcerers is tactical versatility. You need spells that cover a lot of situations well individually with as few overlaps as possible (telekenisis, polymorph, haste). You need feats that let you do a lot with your spell slots, or add extra spells known (versatile spellcaster, arcane disciple, reserve feats). You need items that help you on top of that (robe of mysterious conjuration, runestaffs, gloves of starry sky, belt of the wide earth).
if it helps, the dice rolls are random, and not point cost. I figure that CHA would obviously be the highest, with INT as second. STR seems like it should be the lowest, what would you rank the order of importance of attributes for a build like this? I'm thinking CHA, INT, CON, DEX, WIS, STR. I could be wrong of course ;)
What do you, and just you, want to do? I can build you a character who can literally do anything. I've basically never met a challenge I couldn't kick down. Forgive my arrogance. Now, what do you, just you, want to do?
Your job is to make sure your team survives. My favorite WW build is actually really weird but very simple. I'll adapt it to being a kobold.
Sorc 3(Invisibly 4, thanks to DwK cheese)
1st Level: Sanctum Spell.
Set your wife's backpack as your sanctum.
+2 Profane bonus to relationship checks.
War Weaver 5
We'll keep it simple, and hammer straight through the prestige
Fate-spinner 4
Your choice from here.
Now, mind you, this isn't the most powerful or hard hitting build I could lay out. It is gonna be some of the most fun, I think.
And like I said, I will be a Dragon Wraught Kobold with most likely the venerable option to help bump up the stats that I need, I will ask the GM if I am getting the Dragon Wraught feat for free or not, I am leaning towards yes, he will give it out for free since we are all Dragon Wraught Kobolds. If there are any other answers you need to help make a level by level build I will definitely answer them. I have a few days to get everything in order before I start playing. Thanks again ;)
How many other casters?
Can you get access to a dragonsblood pool (complete mage)?
What's the starting gold? Any item constraints?
Can we ask your GM if maybe you've been selling spells?
What alignment restrictions are we dealing with?
How powerful do you want this build to actually be?
Are there any specific things you want to be able to do?
Are you starting at level one or a bit higher?
I'll be level with you. Life is rough early on as a Kobold, particularly as a sorcerer. There's a chance that you're just going to be unlucky. That said, I can almost guarantee your survival into mid-game. Almost.
What, specifically, is your wife playing?
I'll tailor my advice to keeping her upright.
I don't mind having flaws, it gives good role-playing flavor as long as it helps me in some way.
How many other casters?
It sounds like we are currently caster heavy for this campaign so far
Can you get access to a dragonsblood pool (complete mage)?
I can run it by the GM, so far he hasn't said anything to the contrary, with the way he normally runs things I would say that yes, I can get this.
What's the starting gold? Any item constraints?
Since we are starting as 0th level characters, I believe that starting gold and constraints would be very tight, I can double check with him to make sure.
Can we ask your GM if maybe you've been selling spells?
I will ask him, but I have a strong feeling that this will be a no since I don't think I will even have access to spells until we run off the PCs
What alignment restrictions are we dealing with?
None. My personal preference has always been Chaotic Neutral, I'm a free spirit and don't like to be bogged down with morality and other choices, but this is a Role-Playing aspect and not set in stone.
How powerful do you want this build to actually be?
I definitely don't want it game breaking cheese at this point, but I also don't see the point of a non-optimize character. It's like buying a car that you know has flaws for the same price as a brand new one. That being said, I think I can hide my min/max a lot easier via support and making everyone else to shine instead of myself, that way they know that I helped, but they don't realize just how good my character is. (Unless we get ambushed and I need to pull out my strings to save everyone's hide. Perhaps my really great abilities could have limits, so it could be very cheesy, but not able to do so very often. I'm not too sure how to word this or even explain it very well. I guess I can pull back a little on my min/max so that I don't become the star. If that doesn't help I can try rewording it again. I could always be the fail safe option ;) )
Are there any specific things you want to be able to do?
Since I just found out that we are caster heavy, I would like to be able to have access to a few more protection type spells then disabling since I have other casters that are able to do the same thing. (I'm also at a loss at this junction since I've never really paid too much attention to spell casters and their spells as I've almost exclusively been a primary melee character and as such my knowledge about the arcane is rather limited, other than get the jump or I'm toast mentality) It's a shame that we have so many casters right now. Maybe when we all get together it might change once everyone realizes this so that I can still play my WW class. (I really like the flavor of this class) If it doesn't sound like anyone is going melee, I might end up going Druid so that we can have someone that can be good at melee and negate most of the small bonuses/penalties we will have.
Are you starting at level one or a bit higher?
We are starting at level 0 with the Dragon Wraught feat, and 1 HD. We gain our first level after the heroes are chased off. So i'll be able to get another feat at level 1 just as if I had made it, along with another set of HP and whatnot. This would mean that everyone will have an extra 4 HP I think at level 1.
I'll be level with you. Life is rough early on as a Kobold, particularly as a sorcerer. There's a chance that you're just going to be unlucky. That said, I can almost guarantee your survival into mid-game. Almost.
No worries. It'll be refreshing playing a non-melee character in the beginning where I feel underpowered at times.
What, specifically, is your wife playing? I'll tailor my advice to keeping her upright.
She'll be playing a Rogue. This will be her first D&D campaign, though she has played Gurps before in small spurts. She has more combat experience ,since she also plays games like Warhammer Online with me, than skill set based, and I have a feeling this will be reflected in her combat oriented Rogue, though I hope she role-plays a bit more with it since Rogues are fun like that.
Hope that helps with everything, if you need more info, please let me know.
Set your wife's backpack as your sanctum.
I hope the DM lets this fly for humor proposes alone...
However I thought your sanctum need to be:
Special: Your sanctum is a particular site, building, or structure previously designated by you, and no larger than 20 feet/level in diameter. -snip-
Not sure a backpack could be considered either of those unless it was constructed by dwarfs or something...
p.s. The need to have lived solely in a backpack for three months clause is pretty funny all be itself.
Sorc 3(Invisibly 4, thanks to DwK cheese)
You can't use Greater Draconic Right of Passage until 6th. It requires 6 hit dice.
You could use Loredrake for +2 to your Caster level as early as 1st if you could get away with it.
I hope the DM lets this fly for humor proposes alone...
However I thought your sanctum need to be:
Not sure a backpack could be considered either of those unless it was constructed by dwarfs or something...
p.s. The need to have lived solely in a backpack for three months clause is pretty funny all be itself.
Hey, as a baby I could have grown up in a backpack due to my small nature instead of being cared for in the usual way. Ironically, growing up as a kid I would often play in boxes more often then out of them. My parents loved it because for 50¢ I could be happy entertaining myself away from them all day. :D
Flaws or no flaws?
I don't mind having flaws, it gives good role-playing flavor as long as it helps me in some way.
Then I can definitely line up early entry.
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How many other casters?
It sounds like we are currently caster heavy for this campaign so far
Can you get access to a dragonsblood pool (complete mage)?
I can run it by the GM, so far he hasn't said anything to the contrary, with the way he normally runs things I would say that yes, I can get this.
Then we'll be able to swing a quest to go get juju from the dragonsblood pool. I love stealthing out the optimization. Don't worry, no one will see this Kobold inbound, and even if they do, no one will mind because he's gonna be so darn cool.
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What's the starting gold? Any item constraints?
Since we are starting as 0th level characters, I believe that starting gold and constraints would be very tight, I can double check with him to make sure.
Can we ask your GM if maybe you've been selling spells?
I will ask him, but I have a strong feeling that this will be a no since I don't think I will even have access to spells until we run off the PCs
Thank god we don't need a spell book, then. Yeech.
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Are there any specific things you want to be able to do?
Since I just found out that we are caster heavy, I would like to be able to have access to a few more protection type spells then disabling since I have other casters that are able to do the same thing. (I'm also at a loss at this junction since I've never really paid too much attention to spell casters and their spells as I've almost exclusively been a primary melee character and as such my knowledge about the arcane is rather limited, other than get the jump or I'm toast mentality) It's a shame that we have so many casters right now. Maybe when we all get together it might change once everyone realizes this so that I can still play my WW class. (I really like the flavor of this class) If it doesn't sound like anyone is going melee, I might end up going Druid so that we can have someone that can be good at melee and negate most of the small bonuses/penalties we will have.
WWs only get better and better as you add more casters. I can get you into WW as a druid, and then you can probably just spam out incredibly huge buffs into the weave. Your job is to make the other casters go first, any way you can. I can lay out for you a build that will basically never fail to do so. It'll be awesome!
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Are you starting at level one or a bit higher?
We are starting at level 0 with the Dragon Wraught feat, and 1 HD. We gain our first level after the heroes are chased off. So i'll be able to get another feat at level 1 just as if I had made it, along with another set of HP and whatnot. This would mean that everyone will have an extra 4 HP I think at level 1.
You... No, you don't start with a HD, I hope. You shouldn't. That's terrible! That'll mean that you'll all cap at level 9, and you'll always be a level behind. Kobolds have no racial hitdice, and always advance as per class levels. I presume your DM is doin' something weird, but I'm very confused here.
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What, specifically, is your wife playing? I'll tailor my advice to keeping her upright.
She'll be playing a Rogue. This will be her first D&D campaign, though she has played Gurps before in small spurts. She has more combat experience ,since she also plays games like Warhammer Online with me, than skill set based, and I have a feeling this will be reflected in her combat oriented Rogue, though I hope she role-plays a bit more with it since Rogues are fun like that.
Hope that helps with everything, if you need more info, please let me know.
Well. Chances are that every other caster is going to be all about blasting or after the fact healing. A lot of people consider buffs boring or almost cheating. Your job is to stack those and BC in such a way as to make combat unloseable. You don't want to win it yourself, but your job is to leave the enemies trapped like flies in amber. Spells like Solid Fog will find a home on your list.
So do you want to play a druid-listed caster, a traditional war weaver, or what? My fu is strong, and these things I can teach. Little else, though, can I offer directly.
Yeah I think he is doing something weird, thats how he is. Basically I think what it means is that we are going to get the Dragon Wraught feat and a few extra hp for free is all. I highly doubt he will give us a penalty to levels because of it.
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Well. Chances are that every other caster is going to be all about blasting or after the fact healing. A lot of people consider buffs boring or almost cheating. Your job is to stack those and BC in such a way as to make combat unloseable. You don't want to win it yourself, but your job is to leave the enemies trapped like flies in amber. Spells like Solid Fog will find a home on your list.
So do you want to play a druid-listed caster, a traditional war weaver, or what? My fu is strong, and these things I can teach. Little else, though, can I offer directly.
Lets go the traditional route and forget the Druid version for now. If I played I druid I'd be tempted to shape change into things and be less inclined to play the WW the way I want to. Your Fu is strong, have a Hot Pocket!
Lets go the traditional route and forget the Druid version for now. If I played I druid I'd be tempted to shape change into things and be less inclined to play the WW the way I want to. Your Fu is strong, have a!
Fix'd.
We will do thusly.
sorcerer 3/war weaver 5
I see you flinching, preparing to gesticulate.
I do not concern myself with this, instead I ready myself.
The following is my secret fu, which I pass on to you in grave confidence.
Sorcerer 3
Divine Companion, Complete Champion because why yes, I would like to be able to do my fundamental job better without losing anything too precious.
DragonWrought kobold, venerable?
Flaws: 2
Inattentive
Frail?
Traits:
Aggressive
Feats at first:
Improved Initiative
Sanctum Spell
Dragonwrought OR Cloudy Conjuration
Third: Enlarge Spell
So, right now, we really can't get into War Weaver. Can't cast third level spells. We can cast spells that count as second level. We have no second level spell slots. We will go to the dragon's blood pool, as a major and fun quest, good for everyone since we're caster heavy...
And we will drink deep. Our heritage will rise in us, and we will be as... well.. We'll gain a second level spell slot, because technically we can cast second level spells. This second level spell slot will let us cast spells that count as third level while in our sanctum. We now qualify for War Weaver. Further, the dragonsblood pool will hide our lost caster level, effectively, until we can get the GDROP at sixth to replace it.
4-8
War Weaver
Here's where the going gets a little rocky. Until eighth, we'll want to be delivering things as touch spells on a semi-regular basis which conflicts with sanctum spell, and we don't have a lot of spare feats to toss around. We even probably ditched our familiar. Oh look, Spectral Hand! Nevermind, we'll just use it to deliver our touch spells for us. That's not compelling really except oh my goodness, it's incorporeal and has improved evasion on top of an ac of 22, nor does it chew up an action to deliver spells with it. Perfect! We really don't want to burn a spell slot on it, so I'm open to suggestions regarding replacements. A ring of minor spellstoring would be better, but we can't afford that until seventh.
And is frail the one that loses hit points? If so, god no, not that one.
Dragon'sblood pool is from complete mage.
Sanctum Spell is from complete arcane.
For the rest..
IA IA ABRUPT JAUNT!
[INDENT] Cloudy Conjuration Cloudy Conjuration Cloudy Conjuration[/INDENT]
Dictum Mortum should be here any moment...
Sorcerer 3
Divine Companion, Complete Champion because why yes, I would like to be able to do my fundamental job better without losing anything too precious.
So what do you mean by Divine Companion? Does that mean a particular type of familiar, or should I throw away my familiar altogether for some other type of bonus?
DragonWrought kobold, venerable?
Flaws: 2
Inattentive
Frail?
Traits:
Aggressive
I'm not too worried about which flaws I will have, those are easy enough to pick. Aggressive is a good one for the +init, and I don't mind losing AC since I'll have lots of tricks up my sleeve(s). I want to double check, venerable will give me +3 to Int, Wis, and Char without any penalties due to my Dragon Wraught heritage, correct? And how does Draconic Heritage work? Dragon Wraught says this:
Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table on page 103. Does that mean I get Draconic Heritage for free, or is it just bad wording? And is there anything else that I should look for since I'm technically part dragon?
Feats at first:
Improved Initiative
Sanctum Spell
Dragonwrought OR Cloudy Conjuration
Third: Enlarge Spell
So, right now, we really can't get into War Weaver. Can't cast third level spells. We can cast spells that count as second level. We have no second level spell slots. We will go to the dragon's blood pool, as a major and fun quest, good for everyone since we're caster heavy...
And we will drink deep. Our heritage will rise in us, and we will be as... well.. We'll gain a second level spell slot, because technically we can cast second level spells. This second level spell slot will let us cast spells that count as third level while in our sanctum. We now qualify for War Weaver. Further, the dragonsblood pool will hide our lost caster level, effectively, until we can get the GDROP at sixth to replace it.
What does GDRoP stand for? Also, at 3rd level, in order to get 3rd level spells, since I only have access to 0-1, 0-2 inside my sanctum, I would drink the blood from the pool inside my sanctum, which gives me access to 0-2, or 0-3 in my sanctum, correct?
4-8
War Weaver
Here's where the going gets a little rocky. Until eighth, we'll want to be delivering things as touch spells on a semi-regular basis which conflicts with sanctum spell, and we don't have a lot of spare feats to toss around. We even probably ditched our familiar. Oh look, Spectral Hand! Nevermind, we'll just use it to deliver our touch spells for us. That's not compelling really except oh my goodness, it's incorporeal and has improved evasion on top of an ac of 22, nor does it chew up an action to deliver spells with it. Perfect! We really don't want to burn a spell slot on it, so I'm open to suggestions regarding replacements. A ring of minor spellstoring would be better, but we can't afford that until seventh.
With all the casters in the group, I could probably give up 1 slot for this spell for now and replace it at a later time when I can get an item to store this spell. Also, is there any way for more than 3 people to drink from the pool, I know it says just 3 are allowed before it needs to recharge, but I'm wondering if there is a small workaround so that maybe 4-5 can drink it if need be. If not, I might be able to convince the GM to let the pool be slightly larger/more potent to allow all of us that can, drink from it.
I'm really liking this so far, it already sets a nice goal in the early levels in the form of questing for the blood of our ancestors.
GDRoP
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is a powerful ritual handed down from dragons to kobolds as a reward for their undying loyalty. In the same way that chromatic and metallic dragons gain integrated levels of sorcerer spellcasting as they age, this ritual allows kobolds to awaken a small amount of their own arcane might.
Prerequisites: Only kobolds of 6 Hit Dice or more, sorcerer level 1st, who have successfully completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, and taken Draconic Reservoir (1) can undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. A kobold requires no one else to perform the rite; it is a solitary activity.
(1) See below for feat description.
Benefit: Upon completing this rite, a kobold gains new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if also gaining one level in the sorcerer class. The kobold does not, however, gain any other benefit a sorcerer would have gained (familiar abilities, and so on).
The benefit of this ritual is automatically factored into the 15 minutes that a kobold sorcerer spends concentrating to ready their daily allotment of spells. No kobold can benefit from this rite more than once.
Time: A kobold who undergoes this rite must first endure nine days of fasting (the equivalent of three days for a kobold in a region above 40 degrees F). Immediately thereafter, the kobold must succeed on a DC 20 Concentration check to enter a deep trance that lasts for 24 hours. If the check fails, the rite must begin a new.
Cost: This rite requires sacrificing a gem of at least 1,000 gp in value. The kobold also permanently loses 3 hit points upon completion of the rite, the price of unlocking latent draconic energy within their soul.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
The Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is a powerful ritual handed down from dragons to kobolds as a reward for their undying loyalty. In the same way that chromatic and metallic dragons gain integrated levels of sorcerer spellcasting as they age, this ritual allows kobolds to awaken a small amount of their own arcane might.
Prerequisites: Only kobolds of 6 Hit Dice or more, sorcerer level 1st, who have successfully completed the Draconic Rite of Passage, and taken Draconic Reservoir (1) can undergo the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. A kobold requires no one else to perform the rite; it is a solitary activity.
(1) See below for feat description.
Benefit: Upon completing this rite, a kobold gains new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known) as if also gaining one level in the sorcerer class. The kobold does not, however, gain any other benefit a sorcerer would have gained (familiar abilities, and so on).
The benefit of this ritual is automatically factored into the 15 minutes that a kobold sorcerer spends concentrating to ready their daily allotment of spells. No kobold can benefit from this rite more than once.
Time: A kobold who undergoes this rite must first endure nine days of fasting (the equivalent of three days for a kobold in a region above 40 degrees F). Immediately thereafter, the kobold must succeed on a DC 20 Concentration check to enter a deep trance that lasts for 24 hours. If the check fails, the rite must begin a new.
Cost: This rite requires sacrificing a gem of at least 1,000 gp in value. The kobold also permanently loses 3 hit points upon completion of the rite, the price of unlocking latent draconic energy within their soul.
For adding spells, your options are quite narrow, by the way. I'd recommend runestaffs, knowstones (dragon magazine), or the drake helm from explorer's handbook, that wonky eberron supplemental. The drake helm is way way way over-costed, but it's basically amazing for a sorcerer as a war weaver.
For added lulz pronounce it as ger-r tae, tightening the th to a gutteral tah rather than the somewhat sibilant s'tha (sorry, didn't feel like cracking open my dictionary and doing a true phonetic transcription)
Do you think it's conceivable of casting a spell at my Divine Companion, and then have that in turn cast it into my Tapestry as the War Weaver instead of me? Or is it only able to cast on me? I'm still not 100% clear on where the War Weavers Tapestry technically exists at. And if I were to cast 5 level 0 spells into the Divine Companion, it would spit out nothing since they do not have a level, correct? Either way, I'm getting lots of good help here and I'm grateful ;) And yes, I'll name it Gurrthau for you.
I've also just realized that with my Inner Sanctum as a backpack, I could just bump up some 0th level spells to 1st level spells and store them into him that way. Interesting possibilities. Definitely a LOT of options for this character as opposed to the Melee Types I usually play as.
If you play varsuvius, though, and forget it's there all the time, you should probably trade it for something else.
If you can, you should always go for a familiar that can talk, either a raven/parrot or an improved familiar. This is so that they can use wands with the ranks in UMD you took (you did take a couple, right). I like Beguilers (Shining South), and Imps (Monster Manual), personally. The former for it's true sight ability, and the latter because you can get three forms out of them (I like having one that can alter form to human, then shapechangeing (et al) myself into something that looks like a familiar).
In addition to the options Doc mentioned for adding spells, there is also Arcane Disciple, which can add any single domain to your spell-list; Draconic Legacy, which gives you 2-4 spells based on your draconic heritage dragon type (only some of these are worth it); and the bloodlines feats from Dragon Compendium, which gives/disallows spells based on the bloodline type. In addition to that, in my groups, we have a houserule that sorcerers with SLA's can consider those SLA's added to their spells known, if you can get the same or a similar rule, anything that can get you an SLA should add to your spells known. On top of all that, there are several items in the MIC, like Gloves of the Starry Sky, or Robes of Mysterious Conjuration, which will let you trade out slots for a particular spell or type of spell. These make great gifts for sorcerers, since it means you don't necessarily have to blow spells known on every spell.
To answer an earlier question. You do not get Draconic Heritage for free with Dragonwrought. I have had DM's house-rule that you do (or at least, qualify as having it for the other feats), but that's a house-rule.
If your DM won't make that rule, and you're taking sorcerer as your first level, you can take Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF from RoTD, which costs you your familiar but grants Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat at 1st, a long with some other stuff. This has the added benefit of giving you back the dragonblooded subtype you lose when you take Dragonwrought.
If your DM won't make that rule, and you're taking sorcerer as your first level, you can take Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF from RoTD, which costs you your familiar but grants Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat at 1st, a long with some other stuff. This has the added benefit of giving you back the dragonblooded subtype you lose when you take Dragonwrought.
It says that I need the Dragon Blood subtype as a requirement to get Dragonblood Sorcerer so I don't think I would be able to substitute it, but on the plus side I'm looking into different options as pets. I'm not too sure if I want to sink an entire feat into improved familiar unless you really think that it's worth it for some of the advanced familiars you can get access to. Since I can't get improved familiar until level 7 anyway, I think I'll stick to a raven/parrot since it still is able to fly and deliver slightly hidden touch attacks from a flying maneuver.
1. Your a kobold, you take a level in Dragonblood Sorcerer
2. You pick your feat, Dragonwrought, which causes you to lose dragonblood subtype.
3. Your class feature gives you Draconic Heritage giving it back.
If you can get access to it, I would highly recommend taking the Enspell Familiar feat from the Dragon Compendium for anyone wanting to use a Familiar. It removes the 5 foot limitation on share spells (they still have to be within the distance when you cast, but they don't lose the spell if they move away from you).
This makes it so you can buff them and really get to use them tactically, without worrying that the fireball you're immune to may kill them.
Double-check the +init items before you purchase them. Some of the bonuses are unnamed (which stack), but I distinctly remember two or three of them all being competence, which wouldn't.
At high levels, moment of prescience and/or shapechange (dire tortoise), is all you need not to really worry about losing init most of the time.
If familiars are used to the best of their ability, there almost isn't anything in the game worth giving one up for. This is especially true if you're allowed Dragon material, but even if you aren't, they're still potentially the greatest tool short of 9th level spells at a wizard's disposal.
If you play varsuvius, though, and forget it's there all the time, you should probably trade it for something else.
I... It's possible that I may have once left my familiar in it's familiar pocket and accidentally sold the robe it was in. And never remembered to summon it back. I'm.... a little absent-minded. Pithica is, however, probably correct. Familiars rock. Divine companions are really nice though, as well.
If your DM won't make that rule, and you're taking sorcerer as your first level, you can take Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF from RoTD, which costs you your familiar but grants Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat at 1st, a long with some other stuff. This has the added benefit of giving you back the dragonblooded subtype you lose when you take Dragonwrought.
Probably a better option than divine companion, which is unfortunate.
I've never been precisely sure how the tapestry works, and I've studied it in tremendous detail. As a result, I opt for the most conservative readings, which would be that you cannot do such haxxy things. Your Mileage May Vary.
An item you should consider as a stop-gap measure:
Amulet of Tears, MIC
2.3k
+24 temp hp for 10 minutes.
Throughout the rest of the thread, there's a lot of mention of some really good items like the robe of mysterious conjuration. It's basically made of win and awesome.
I... It's possible that I may have once left my familiar in it's familiar pocket and accidentally sold the robe it was in. And never remembered to summon it back. I'm.... a little absent-minded. Pithica is, however, probably correct. Familiars rock. Divine companions are really nice though, as well.
I've been there myself plenty of times. But once I sat down and really read 'Share Spells', I realized that I had been screwing myself with a pogo stick.
Getting double use, or more strategic use out of your spells is made of win.
Probably a better option than divine companion, which is unfortunate.
Does divine companion get share spells?
I've never been precisely sure how the tapestry works, and I've studied it in tremendous detail. As a result, I opt for the most conservative readings, which would be that you cannot do such haxxy things. Your Mileage May Vary.
The steps to level advancement are on page 58 of the PH, I can't seem to find it in the SRD, or I'd quote. If a DM wouldn't let you do this, but they do require you have appropriate feats/skill pre-reqs the level before you wish to take a PrC (as they should), then they aren't being fair.
Throughout the rest of the thread, there's a lot of mention of some really good items like the robe of mysterious conjuration. It's basically made of win and awesome.
It's like a metamagic rod of rapid spell + having limited spell mastery over 9 different spells.
It's 5lbs of awesome in a 1lb bag.
This is how it looks like my character progression is looking like so far. Correct me on any mistakes
0th level
1 HD (Either 4 to 8 hp, not too sure about this since, as Doc Rock pointed out, they don't really have HD. I'm also pretty sure this does NOT count against us for determining level purposes. It's most likely some sort of permanent health increase before character creation.)
Dragon Wraught Feat
Venerable - +3 to Int, Wis, Cha. No penalties due to Dragon Wraught
Traits: Aggressive (+2 Init, - 1 AC) (Are there any others worth taking? I've checked but didn't find anything else THAT useful, but I could have missed something)
Flaws: Inattentive and possibly Vulnerable? Still thinking about this. -4 to listen and spot won't hurt too much since I won't be raising those skills, and someone else or my familiar or a spell will help me around it, and losing a total of 2 AC might hurt a bit in the beginning until I start getting my stats and gear going.
We then proceed through the beginning story which is to fend off some heroes attacking our village. We then are raised to level 1.
Sorcerer 1
Feats
Improved Initiative
Spell Sanctum (Wife's Backpack)
Cloudy Conjuration
Skills (Depends on Int of course)
I'm not entirely sure what I should specialize in all the time, and what I should raise just to help me get to prestige classes down the road. I'm thinking UMD, Spellcraft are important, what do you guys think?
Spells These are subject for input by you guys of course
0th Resistance
0th Detect Magic
0th Message
0th Read Magic
1st Nerve Skitter
1st Mage Armor
I think that sums up the first part of the game and leveling. I'm still not sure what to do about the familiar though. If I can't take Dragonblood Sorcerer and ditch the familiar, the celestial one is nice because I don't really have to worry about it dying or getting in the way and helps keep me a bit safer, but loses out the higher level I go I think. A talking familiar gives me the ability to have something use my UMD skill and most likely can fly and deliver touch attacks that way. What do you guys think so far, please feel free to amend and make changes so far with any and all parts of the build. Once we've tuned the first 0tha nd 1st level, going in the right direction will be next, I'm just making sure that I have everything that I need to get started with.
They're.... very strange and always worth looking at. Whenever I sit down to make a character that might qualify for one, I look over divine companion. +20 resistance bonus to saves and AC for 20 rounds? I'm not sure it's worth the over-all cost, but it's pretty darned cool.
Strategic use of spells is a much bigger deal, particularly as a war weaver, because your familiar can deliver touch spells, can cast into your tapestry, can share personal range spells with you, and can carry a wand or two if it's a raven. And that, my friend, is lulz. I feel it's either dragonblood sorcerer or keeping the familiar. If you can get a hummingbird familiar, which will be difficult as it's dragon material, do so. Otherwise, I'd stick with either bat or raven.
I'm a big believer in a few large items and some smaller ones. This is largely because I tend to go nova with great regularity, in a desperate attempt to kill or disable the enemy mage right away, and I use items to get the initiative and the boosts I need to sustain this sort of behavior.
Initiative really really matters. If you can get your buffs up before they can, you have the enemy mage struggling to keep dispelling. If the enemy mage is a wizard, this is a fight he will always lose, particularly if you exploit your quiescent weavings to effectively grant you more slots per day.
I also like that it is small, hard to hit, and so can help me on spying or getting in touch attacks if needed. It's small enough to hide if it's in danger of getting killed, and it doesn't upset TOO much game balance since it can't speak and use wands etc... I like it! So I'll have a +10 initiative +/- DEX score when I start. Yes please!
Is there any easy way to find out what +initiative abilities/equipment is able to stack? One more thing, can I use my tapestry to tie a life line to my familiar so it doesn't have to be within 5 feet for me to cast on it? :D
(btw I have not mentioned to you how invaluable it's been to me - thank you. My handle here is also my favorite PrC.)
This thread is fas-k-inatin'.
I'm putting a new build up in it, by the way.
a) buff the whole party as a move action in a way that would otherwise require rounds,
b) grant spells to wonky classes to play with that would normally be prioritized for others (the Cleric gets Cat's Grace as well as the Rogue and Fighter? Well sweet...his Searing Light's a little better!) :P, and
c) function at nearly the same capacity as a regular caster. You can buff *and* blast. Or buff more. Or battlefield control, or whatever you want - all you give up is a caster level and move action.
Though the ridiculous world-destroying combos are still fun to read about.
P.S. - One of my personal favorite spells to use with a weaver? Heroics. It's so very adaptable. Don't be daunted by the material component - as an item with no gp cost, you're assumed to have one in your spell component pouch. And when that mind flayer inquisition comes after you, you'll be glad you gave the whole party Close-Quarters Fighting...
EDIT: Not to mention, even at 20th level there are plenty of 5-or-below level spells useful in a Quiescent Weave.
Consider delay potion. It's not super-well thought of, but if it's good enough for T_G, it's fundamentally good enough for me.
Anyone else have thoughtz?
Mobile Spell Casting
Insightful Reflexes
QUICK RECONNOITER
Practiced Spell Caster
They are not feats. They cost gold and I think a hitpoint or something (they say what they cost in their descriptions).
You have to take Draconic Reservoir to qualify for GDRoP, it's required. Personally, I think it's worth it to take it at 3rd, if you can, as the extra 1st(s) at that point actually might mean something. Especially if your DM plays with the same house-rule all of mine do in that Sorcerers who have racial or other SLA's get to cast their SLA's as Sorcerer spells and add the SLA to their spells known. (We figure Sorcerers are just mimicing SLA's anyway, so what's the diff.)
Are there any other nifty little quests like Draconic Rite of Passage that don't count as feats but still provide some really nice beneficial help for my caster? I like the concept of this as it allows me to get some sort of a quest going in the beginning of the campaign (If the GM doesn't have anything specific) that would benefit all of the arcane casters. If he won't allow me access to Draconic Rite of passage at level 1 to qualify for the Draconic Reservoir feat, then I might just ask to hold that feat to lvl 2 or 3 when I do have access to the Draconic Rite and thus qualify for Draconic Reservoir.
Also, are there any special skills that I should be on the lookout for with a build of this nature so I can make sure I don't spend needless skill points due to all of my cross class skills I'm most likely wanting to take. It's a shame that a class with such a high CHA would have so few class skills that take advantage of that.
I think for now, you're probably locked in on feats, could I see the current build given GM approval? :: curious :: Also, can I ask for a campaign diary? I am always curious about how my designs do in the wild.
Note: If you do take somehow cloudy conjuration, you'll want to take acid splash for an easy way to trigger it. The issue is that I'd rather roll deep on some specific metamagic. Repeat spell is really interesting for a war weaver, potentially, for a wide variety of reasons. Versatile spellcaster is also really good, if I remember correctly.
As a general idea of where to go after 8th, where do you think I should spend my levels as a new class? I guess I could hold onto some skill points until I've decided what class I would like to be so that I can make sure I have enough skill points invested by then to get into certain prestige classes. I saw your list of what other classes mesh well with the War Weaver. Most of them require a lot of feats to get in, and I'm not sure if they're worth it due to the limitations of feats for a Sorcerer.
Mindbender is a nice dip to pick up Telepathy. It would allow mt communicate with my teammates and my familiar, among other things. Now, the rule states that I can communicate telepathically to ANY creature that has a language. It doesn't say that I have to know that language, is this correct? Because if it is, this is a lot better than I thought.
Mage of the Arcane Order seems very good due to access to the pool of spells. It also grants a couple bonus feats, always nice.
Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 also seems like a very solid candidate due to access of the divine spells. I'm leaning more toward MotAO instead because the extra feats and more importantly, access to the pools for spells that I'm already good at is more tempting.
What do you think of the extra classes after I'm done with Sorc and War Weaver? I'll also post the final build that is GM approved tomorrow sometime. That's when we are getting together and I can ask permission for the 5 million things I would like to do ;)
This, by the way, I did not know.
I presume we mean psychic reformation?
This, by the way, I did not know.
That's one way. There is also that... other way... that we won't mention in civilized company. ;) Some DMs might let you use the retraining rules for this, or just say you can get a Pseudodragon that has Mindsight instead of Alertness, since not all "monsters" have to have exactly the same feats as most of their kind.
I think somewhere (FC2?) it says that all Baatezu get Telepathy 100', also, which would make this trick work with the Imp, too. The SRD does not explicitly say this, though.
I presume we mean psychic reformation?
This, by the way, I did not know.
Since Phaedrus doesn't mention it, I will.
Embrace the Dark Chaos, then Shun the Dark Chaos.
No good first level feats for your wizard? Take Improved Toughness, then retrain it when you afford to pay someone to cast the spell.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, unlike a lot of tricks, this is pure RAW. It's hard to say if it's RAI, because trying to divine RAI for sanctum spell is like trying to understand the fact that your pet hamster is now a god-killing abomination. It will just never quite compute.
To clarify the sequence:
Level one spells + sanctum spell->level two spells
Drink from the dragonsblood pool
Get a level two spell-slot
Level two spells + sanctum spell->level three spells.
I've had players do things like this. It's really not a problem as long as you promise to not be a dick. It's not like your playing Algernon or something
You just want to keep your wife alive. I feel this is sufficiently admirable to buy you some leeway.
Yes, it does count, according to general consensus on the boards here.
Oh God... Sorcerer Kobold War Weaver at level 2.
Too... Much... Cheese...
And of course, that causes a need for a feat slot...
Still horribly awesome.
Stupid favoratism. My build is pretty close to what it was on the other page, I had to get Enlarge Spell to qualify for Sanctum Spell as my 2 bonus flaw feats, and improved initiative for my first level. I'm trying to talk him into having us go after the Dragons Blood Pool, but it seems that he is dead set on pulling us by the ears through his story.He also pulled on me, after we beat the PCs and created are first level characters that ended up taking around 4 hours, that he was no going to use the Unearthed Arcana's version of spell points. I just barely skimmed through it but it seems like it would be SO much better to be a wizard with this system. Maybe I don't know enough about it.
Is a Sorcerer War Weaver build still good with the Unearthed Arcana spell point system? It seems like the Wizard gets just as many points as me and has amuch higher spell pool. I'm going to keep playing to see how it goes, but with it being once every 2-3 weeks, I don't know how long this campaign will hold together, which is a VERY big shame because I REALLY, REALLY like this character concept. I guess he will just have to be reincarnated in another D&D session sometime ;)
Doc Roc, do you still want me to keep a journal of our exploits so far? Also, can anyone help me understand the Spell Point system better. It sounds like I will never get more options to cast 0th level spells then what I do at first level. As a non dmg spell, does it ALWAYS get casted as if it were my max level, regardless of the actual level I got it. Is there a big enough reason to stay as a Sorc, or should I go Wizard instead for more feats?
Run and never look back. Spell points are too broken and stupid for even me to use.
Just run. Your GM is gone. He or She's a pod person now. Spell points favor wizards so much it's hideous. It also gimps blasters terribly, while doing nothing to reduce the dark heart of a wizard's power. So it's still worth it to play a war weaver, because it completely and utterly destroys the implicit economy established by spell points. It's hard to articulate how bad and stupid that system is, which is why you cannot understand it.
To put it more simply:
A three bolt magic missile is as expensive to cast as haste. This is not okay.
This. Is. Not. Okay.
This means that a war weaver becomes basically a brutal juggernaut of pure win and fury.
Just PrC into war weaver at 5th instead of 4th, which obviates the need for dragonsblood pool. This is a terrible situation, but unfortunately for your GM we can harness it. If you switch to a wizard, you can still PrC in at 4th.
Our advantages:
We have one of the few ways of getting extra spell points in the form of the quiescent weave->rest->adventure methodology.
We like mid-level spells, of which we get stupid numbers without need for versatile spellcasting or its ilk.
Our lost caster level hurts far far less than it should.
We get 5 spells for the price of one every time we cast a buff, even more important now.
Our versatility even further dwarfs that of normal casters, since we can use a single buff to hit the whole team.
We hardly cut into our point pool at all.
Our losses:
Well, it would have been nice to play Dungeons and Dragons instead of Morons And Mages. I mean, it's bad enough already.
On the plus side, my wife finally understands why I have SOOO many dice of different shapes and colors. She went and bought a few sets tonight. It made me lulz IRL. Thanks Roc, I'll see if I can squirm into a Wizard, but the nice thing is that I didn't have any direct dmg spells and thus they all seemed to get freen upgrades. Anyway, yeah, stupid system. We'll see how it goes. It's even worst because his wife is playing a Psy-Warrior and so her power pool is different from our Spell Pool, and she's confused and he doesn't seem to have much of a clue. And I mean that in the nicest way possible.
By the way, I have to say that this is the funniest thing I've heard all day!
Our losses:
Well, it would have been nice to play Dungeons and Dragons instead of Morons And Mages. I mean, it's bad enough already.
HAHAHA thanks!
This is a rare opportunity. I'd LOVE a campaign diary of this ridiculousness. It'll be aaaaaaamaaaazing. Even if you can't make wizard, definitely go with war weaver.
I... Wow, yes.
So powers are costed pretty well, in most cases. Psionics are apparently well thought of, ignoring a few major culprits. Spells have never been well-costed, with most of them following a very very sharp power curve that begins its terrible rise with fourth level spells. Having more fourth level spells than you should..
My G'd....
It's full of stars.
Sanctum spell now... There are no spell slots. Sanctum spell... I... I think under the spell point system sanctum spell makes your spells actually get cast as a farking level lower. I have no idea. It's certainly not RAI, but RAI for spell points is definitely a little bit IA IA CTHULHU FTAIGN`0 i2
::transmission ends::
Spellcasters use their full normal caster level for determining
the effects of their spells in this system, with one signifi cant
exception
So, does that mean even if I LOSE caster levels, I still use my normal caster levels for spells that don't do dmg? That's insanely awesome!
Check out some of those domains (or if you really feel ballsy, ask him if you can pick from cleric domains) to see which has the coolest war weaver-applicable cleric spells you can add to your list. I imagine there are some super-great applications to be had.
The best part? Since I doubt you were going to specialize as a wizard anyway (tough to find two schools w/o any good war weaver buffs), going Domain Wizard loses you NOTHING.
I'm sure your DM has at least enough sense to avoid the Gestalt section of UA. Though that would be just priceless.
Do you think I should go the Wizard route instead of Sorcerer, and if so, is there anything I should change from what I've made so far?
The hard part is that spell points are really weird. They seem to punish sorcerers pretty hard, particularly because it de-emphasizes preparation, and the gap between a wizard and a sorcerer's progression is monstrously narrow. It also bones any PrC with an alternative progression completely or forces you to roll rules on the spot. In this case, I'd lean heavily towards generalist wizard, particularly since if I'm reading it right, a specialist diviner just gets more prepared slots but no more spell points, which completely screws them. I have no idea.
As a DM, I've done lots of things to give sorcs more love - like giving them the same spell level progression as the wizard (but with 0 spells per day at the top level - so they just get a bonus spell from their prime attribute), and draconic/metamagic bonus feats at the levels a wizard gets his. But I digress, those are house rules.
The Diviner isn't a bad call for war weaver - Dr Rock is right in that they don't lose many essentials...then again, you're a diviner. It's all about whether you can find enough good divination spells for those extra slots to excuse losing Wall of Force, Forcecage, and Contingency (the blasting spells can be made up for in other schools).
But yeah, Spell Points are really weird. From what I've read on the SRD I agree with the Doc - generalist wiz is your best bet. I don't think Sorc is worth it with that system in place, and I don't think you get enough to specializing (though that depends on how much you value versatility). If you do switch to wizard, be ready to make up bigass lists of your prepped spells (the main reason people still play sorcerers).
Aged (The GM only allowed 1 age category possible) Dragon Wraught Kobold
Stats:
Str: 12 (16 -4 racial)
Dex: 16 (14 +2 racial)
Con: 14 (16 - 2 racial)
Int: 18 (17 +1 age catagory)
Wis: 13 (12 +1 age catagory)
Cha: 19 (18 +1 age catagory)
*Note* I am going to try and negotiate with my GM about making me a desert variant as well as loredrake. I doubt he will go for loredrake, but he 'might' (Leaning more towards no) go for desert racial variant.
AC: 17 (+2 armor, +3 dex, +2 size, +1 natural, +1 misc. modifier (Amulet) -1 vulnerable, -1 aggressive)
Initiative: 13 (+4 Improve Init, +4 hummingbird familiar, +3 dex, +2 trait)
Flaws: Vulnerable (-1 AC); Inattentive (-4 Spot & listen)
Traits: Aggressive (+2 init., -1 AC)
Languages: (Under strict GM ruling) Draconic, Kobold, Undercommon
Level Progression
Sorcerer 1 -
FeatsSanctum Spell (Bonus feat from flaw) Enlarge Spell (Bonus feat from flaw) Dragon Wraught (Free feat from GM) & Improved Initiative
Familiar: Hummingbird
I won't bother with skills and equipment for now. My current build idea is the following
Sorcerer 2 -
Sorcerer 3 - Touchstone feat (Need advice on how best to 'use' this site)
War Weaver 4 - *-1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class* +1 Cha
War Weaver 5 -
War Weaver 6 - *Gain 1 CL from Greater Draconic Rite* Cooperative spell feat
War Weaver 7 -
War Weaver 8 - +1 CHA
Mindbender 9 - (need advice for feat selection from here on)
Sandshaper 10 - *-1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class* +1 ECL with 15 lbs of sand on me.
Mage of the Arcane Order 11 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 12 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 13 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 14 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 15 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 16 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 17 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 18 -
Mage of the Arcane Order 19 -
Giving me a CL of 19 as a Sorcerer as of level 19. I'm open to more ideas to increase caster levels if needed, but most of my spells are buffs and/or support and most don't have saves. I am not too sure if I even will have any direct dmg spells, with the one possible exception of magic missle, but again, I'm still debating about that.
Haven't decided what my last level will be, another level of MotAO or another 1 level dip somewhere. I've only grabbed the feats and skills that I need to start qualifying for my PrC. Any advice on what skills and/or feats I should use/get either before or after the listed feats I have so far? I know that I can wait a few levels to get the qualifying feats so I can put something useful in there, I'm just not sure what to put there yet. For roleplaying purposes, silent spell and still spell are top contenders, although they aren't high up for practicality imo.
What are some good spells that are emulated by either wands, staves, or magical items that are worth getting. I know the Sorcerer armory list includes robes of conjuration, spell storing rings, and so forth...
Does anyone have anything else to help add for this build so far? I'm still only level 1, and I can try to change some things with my GM because I found out we are using spell points instead of spells per day and so forth.
Edit: The GM has stated that his own personal rule with regards to spell points is that wizards still have to prepare all their spells ahead of time. So if you have 6 points, you need to prepare 6 points worth of spells for that day during your meditation, so it isn't completely black and white against Sorcerers. Also, Doc Rock, I should have the first couple gaming sessions written up (I'm begin creative with this) probably after this weekend.
We are Dragon! We shall not leave a mark on history, we shall leave scars.
It looks really solid for the most part, but again, I'm going to have to ask what you want to do before I can tell you more about feat choices. I recommend if possible going planar chaos sorcerer.
Where is the planar chaos sorcerer located at? I've looked through almost everything I have and can't find it.
With regards to Draconic Rite of Passage:
Upon completing this rite, a kobold chooses any 1st-level sorcerer spell. He can now use that spell once per day as a spell-like ability, using his character level as his caster level. Each day, a kobold must complete the Searching for the
Dragon meditation (see above) in order to recharge this spell-like ability for the day. No kobold can benefit from this rite more than once.
It's a stretch, but could it be possible that this spell like ability is considered prepared, since you still have to meditate (Prepare) it each morning to use it?
spell preparation: Part of the spellcasting process for wizards,
clerics, paladins, rangers, and druids. Preparing a spell requires
careful reading from a spellbook (for wizards) or devout prayers or
meditation (for divine spellcasters). The character actually casts the
first and lengthiest part of the spell during the preparation phase,
leaving only the very end for completion at another time. To use a
prepared spell, the character finishes the casting with the
appropriate spell components—a few special words, some complex
gestures, a specific item, or a combination of the three. A prepared
spell is used up once cast and cannot be cast again until the
spellcaster prepares it again. Sorcerers and bards need not prepare
their spells.
If I could get by with that, I could take Draconic heritage at lvl 3, Draconic reservoir at lvl 6, nab greater draconic rite of passage, get touchstone at 9 to allow me entrance into mindbender, although I wouldn't be able to enter mage of the arcane order until 12, because I need cooperative spell. So I need a 1 dip filler I suppose at 11, assuming that this even works... if not, I guess I should forget about the whole greater rite of passage thing.
I'm a DM who doesn't let my PCs pull early-entry shenanigans anyway (barring PrCs that are designed to let you in before 5th level, i.e. Master Specialist), so there's that.
I should call him the Puppet Master. You know, I think I might make a build based on that idea one of these days. Someone who controls both allies and enemies from the shadows without seeming like it.