Help me "break" this rogue to fit my DM's game - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help me "break" this rogue to fit my DM's game

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Sword_of_Spirit
May 22, 2009 0:15:42 I need some help maximizing my character’s efficiency in a Pathfinder + 3.5 campaign. My DM is concerned that my character concept won’t allow him keep up at epic levels. He’s giving me an option of rebuilding him (we are currently 6th level). If my DM is right, and the character is looking to shape up underpowered compared to the rest of the party, I need help squeezing all the power I can out of my character concept. I’ll probably have to use tricks that might be considered “broken,” but if they keep my character’s power in line with the other PCs my DM will probably be fine with it. We’re using the Pathfinder rules where available and my DM is open to feats and prestige classes from almost all official D&D sources. I do need to know the sources of obscure feats and classes.

Here are the character’s relevant stats at 1st level:

Human Rogue, CG
Str 12
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 13

I use the fixed hit points rule from the DMG, and I plan to take the Toughness (Pathfinder version) feat in order to keep his hp high.

Before rebuilding he is a Rogue 3, Urban Ranger 2, Bard 1. I was going to take another level of Bard and 2 levels of the Urban Brawler Barbarian variant. The majority of his levels would then be Rogue or rogue-based prestige classes, although dabbling in other classes is right up his alley.

The character concept is that of a young reformed thief. He likes to dabble in many different skills and abilities. He favors light or no armor, dual wielding finesse blades, and thrown daggers. Since we have no real tank in our party (lots of d8 based classes), this character will be an active melee participant.

Help me break him, please. *Evil grin*
#2
dandu
May 22, 2009 0:20:45 Does this look interesting?
#3
phaedrusxy
May 22, 2009 0:52:12
Does this look interesting?

Nice portrait.
#4
dandu
May 22, 2009 0:57:04 All he lacks is the ability to rewrite his own character sheet...
#5
muertog
May 22, 2009 1:52:34 Look into the Pathfinder Prestige classes. They have upped the abilities of most of them from the old versions. Duelist might make for an interesting idea, especially as you are thinking of front-lining with a slightly squishy build. Nothing in the description (as written) that says you have to -melee- with the light or one-handed weapon, which means it would work with a thrown weapon. :P
Parry, Riposte, along with the "free" Combat Reflexes makes for a nice "attack and get punished" theme, and only requires 5 levels. Also nice to get the additional 5 damage per attack, which would lose just a little to the regular sneak attack damage progression, but doesn't require a flank-buddy to be activated.

I do have to ask... why the bard levels? You aren't taking enough to be truly effective with most bard abilities unless you are thinking of an arcane trickster entry somewhere.

Hmm. Robilar's Gambit, Kharmic Strike, Parry, Riposte, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, and thrown weapons in melee to provoke the attacks of opportunity... Wonder if there is room to throw in some Master Thrower as well...
#6
dandu
May 22, 2009 4:05:18 Other good things you can do for Rogues is to dip in Swordsage when you have a total initiator level of 5 to gain access to Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack and the Shadow Hand feat which lets you add your Dex mod to damage with certain weapons such as short swords and daggers.
#7
Sword_of_Spirit
May 22, 2009 15:31:16 I like these responses, they get me thinking.

I probably should nix bard. Conceptually I like it, but statistically I can't justify it, unless there is some sort of extremely useful synergistic bard feat that I can take.

Instead, I'm considering 2 levels of (Pathfinder) wizard (Conjurer). This nets me minor spells and the ability to enchant my own bonded weapon as if I had the item creation feats (nice!). But more importantly, it also provides a +2 untyped AC bonus, and the cantrips that I would really like my character to have for flavor purposes.

I'm also thinking of ditching barbarian, but adding 4 levels of fighter (targeteer).

If my calculations are correct, this is the net change at 20th level, compared to taking all 20 levels in rogue:

Rogue 12, (Urban) Ranger 2, Fighter (Targeteer) 4, Wizard (Conjurer) 2

-4d6 Sneak Attack
-Master Strike
-4 Advanced rogue abilities
-2 Trap sense
-40 Skill point

+4 hp
+2 AC (untyped)
+5 Fort
+2 Ref
+2 Will
+1 additional attack
+Two-weapon fighting
+Armor Training (+1 AC)
+Vital aim
+2 Fighter (targeteer) bonus feats
+Favored enemy +2 (human)
+Arcane Bond (weapon)
+Class Skills: All
+1 Will vs fear
+(Urban) Tracking
+Wild Empathy (1/2)
+5 First level spells (1 recalled)
+Cantrips

At 28th level I'll be rogue 20, and then I'll gain all of those missed rogue abilities, with a trade off (versus a 28th level rogue) of:
-4d6 Sneak attack
-2 Epic feats
-4 Trap sense

Since skill ranks work differently in Pathfinder, the loss of epic rogue levels shouldn't significantly reduce his ability to qualify for epic feats.

I'm considering taking Elusive Dance and Flick of the Wrist, in combination with Quick Draw and carrying several daggers, to allow him to use ranged sneak attacks to good advantage.

I'd like to have him use shortswords in melee, but it looks as if it might be better to stick with daggers in order to devote all weapon feats to the same weapon type.

I'm going all out on the dual wielding, with Greater and eventually Perfect Two-weapon fighting. Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker are also looking like great choices to keep the sneak attacks coming, as well as a couple epic feats to increase their effectiveness.

In Pathfinder, sneak attacks work against almost all creatures, so are there any feats that would be especially useful for getting in more sneak attacks?

I'd welcome any other suggestions regarding either feat/ability choices for the class build that I'm considering, or even suggestions for alternate classes or levels. Unfortunately, my DM isn't too keen on ToB classes, so the swordsage wouldn't be allowed in.
#8
gorfnad_the_shiznit
May 22, 2009 17:41:02 Let me try. You said you were using some pathfinder.
Human
1. Rogue - Craven, TWF
2. Rogue - B: Rogue Talent: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Point Blank Shot (Penetrating Strike substitution from Dungeonscape)
4. Rogue - B: Rogue Talent: Combat Expertise
5. Targeteer Fighter - B: Weapon Focus Dagger
6. Targeteer Fighter - Far Shot, B: Vital Aim
7. Targeteer Fighter
8. Targeteer Fighter - B: Weapon Specialization Dagger
9. Cobra Strike Monk - Carmendine Monk, B: Dodge
10. Cobra Strike Monk - B: Mobility (Spell Reflection from Complete Mage)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Invisible Blade
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Duelist - Rapid Shot
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

BAB 18, Int to AC nearly 3x!, Dex to Damage (twice in some circumstances), 16 daggers thrown per round, Sneak Attack 5d6+20.
If you can go with Hit-and-Run Tactics (DoTU) fighter subs adding in as well for even more dex to damage. Also Targeteer gets you exotic weapon prof with two ranged weapons of your choice. If you can I would go with either Drow Long Knives (counts as daggers for feats/abilities!) (SoX), Desert Throwing Knife (SS), Whip or Whip-Dagger (AEG), or Harpoon (Sneak Attack + Harpoon = a lot of damage when they try to pull the harpoon out!) (SW, FB) . For Equipment I would go with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM), Rogue's Vest (MIC), and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC) or a reworked to Bandoleer of Infinite Daggers (formerly Quiver of Anariel, replace arrow(s) with dagger(s) and quiver(s) with bandoleer(s))
Taken from The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

Only using a build that has two levels of spellcasting at the very end of it is meh. If you just keep shoving ranks here and there into UMD you should be fine.
#9
muertog
May 23, 2009 12:01:11 Don't forget the orisons as well. Touch attacks w/ Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead could be used unlimted number of times per day, and would qualify for sneak attacks as well.
#10
Sword_of_Spirit
May 25, 2009 15:39:55 Hmmm...this is cool. Gorfnad's character looks definitely broken--this is good. Hehe... Unfortunately, I doubt my DM would let me go that far. So trying to take all the information in so far, I'm going to go with something in the middle of my less powerful and these more powerful, so that I can try to satisfy the power needs of the campaign, while not going beyond what the DM will allow.

I'm going to start with that example I was thinking of, but replace the wizard with bard, because I misread one thing in Pathfinder Conjurer and misinterpreted another, causing me to lose the two best benefits. I'm most definitely going to try to fit in the Craven feat (reflavored for my character, since I don't even want the word "craven" on his character sheet), and the Extra Finesse feat. Those are the "iffy" ones with whether I'll be allowed them by the DM. Everything else should work together quite nicely.

I'm going to ask for a dispensation from my DM to let me exchange the two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies from Targetteer for a proficiency with the drow long knife, and try to sell him on letting it be P or S--which would essentially be blowing two exotic weapon proficiencies for the ability to use a 1d6 damage dagger--sounds fair to me. That's only for his primarily melee us dagger, since I'd rather have him use a shortsword in his primary hand as a matter of character concept. I'm going to try to go exclusively dagger for weapons so that I can focus weapon feats on it.

It's looking like Adaptable Flanker is a good feat to let me get in more sneak attacks. I'm going to aim for putting as much damage into daggers and sneak attacks as I can, and then getting as many sneak attacks as I can. Once I go epic Sneak Attack of Opportunity and Lingering Sneak Attack (I think that's the name) will be devastating.
#11
gorfnad_the_shiznit
May 25, 2009 16:02:13
I'm going to ask for a dispensation from my DM to let me exchange the two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies from Targetteer for a proficiency with the drow long knife, and try to sell him on letting it be P or S--which would essentially be blowing two exotic weapon proficiencies for the ability to use a 1d6 damage dagger--sounds fair to me.

Thrown weapons, like daggers, are considered ranged weapons. So hopefully you can get the Drow Long Knives and something else like the ones I mentioned previously.

Taken from the SRD

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee...

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons...

Also one of the fairly balanced builds I've used once before in a campaign is this:
Human
1. Rogue - Craven, Point Blank Shot
2. Rogue
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Swashbuckler -B: Weapon Finesse
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus: Dagger
8. Fighter - B: Far Shot
9. Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Fighter - B: Weapon Specialization Dagger
11. Invisible Blade
12. Invisible Blade - Combat Reflexes
13. Invisible Blade
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
17. Master Thrower
18. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot
19. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
20. Master Thrower

Now with Pathfinder Rogue and Targeteer your mileage on a build like this would vary but it might give you some ideas on how to construct your own dagger wielding/throwing build.
Here are some other builds that might provide some insight
Other more complicated builds:
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5/ Warblade 2
Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Warblade 6
Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Warblade 1/ Bloodclaw Master 5
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Master Thrower 2/ Fixed Invisible Blade (by original author/creator) 10
Rogue 3/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Whisper Knife 5 (for halflings only)
Rogue 3/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Duelist 5 (Int to AC x3!)
Any of the builds with Monk use either Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius for Int to AC instead of Wis. All of these builds will throw 16 daggers a round.

And this link has some nice dagger throwing builds as well: Machine Gun Rogue

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Sword_of_Spirit May 22, 2009 0:15:42	I need some help maximizing my character’s efficiency in a Pathfinder + 3.5 campaign. My DM is concerned that my character concept won’t allow him keep up at epic levels. He’s giving me an option of rebuilding him (we are currently 6th level). If my DM is right, and the character is looking to shape up underpowered compared to the rest of the party, I need help squeezing all the power I can out of my character concept. I’ll probably have to use tricks that might be considered “broken,” but if they keep my character’s power in line with the other PCs my DM will probably be fine with it. We’re using the Pathfinder rules where available and my DM is open to feats and prestige classes from almost all official D&D sources. I do need to know the sources of obscure feats and classes. Here are the character’s relevant stats at 1st level: Human Rogue, CG Str 12 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 13 Cha 13 I use the fixed hit points rule from the DMG, and I plan to take the Toughness (Pathfinder version) feat in order to keep his hp high. Before rebuilding he is a Rogue 3, Urban Ranger 2, Bard 1. I was going to take another level of Bard and 2 levels of the Urban Brawler Barbarian variant. The majority of his levels would then be Rogue or rogue-based prestige classes, although dabbling in other classes is right up his alley. The character concept is that of a young reformed thief. He likes to dabble in many different skills and abilities. He favors light or no armor, dual wielding finesse blades, and thrown daggers. Since we have no real tank in our party (lots of d8 based classes), this character will be an active melee participant. Help me break him, please. Evil grin
#2 dandu May 22, 2009 0:20:45	Does this look interesting?
#3 phaedrusxy May 22, 2009 0:52:12	Does this look interesting? Nice portrait.
#4 dandu May 22, 2009 0:57:04	All he lacks is the ability to rewrite his own character sheet...
#5 muertog May 22, 2009 1:52:34	Look into the Pathfinder Prestige classes. They have upped the abilities of most of them from the old versions. Duelist might make for an interesting idea, especially as you are thinking of front-lining with a slightly squishy build. Nothing in the description (as written) that says you have to -melee- with the light or one-handed weapon, which means it would work with a thrown weapon. :P Parry, Riposte, along with the "free" Combat Reflexes makes for a nice "attack and get punished" theme, and only requires 5 levels. Also nice to get the additional 5 damage per attack, which would lose just a little to the regular sneak attack damage progression, but doesn't require a flank-buddy to be activated. I do have to ask... why the bard levels? You aren't taking enough to be truly effective with most bard abilities unless you are thinking of an arcane trickster entry somewhere. Hmm. Robilar's Gambit, Kharmic Strike, Parry, Riposte, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, and thrown weapons in melee to provoke the attacks of opportunity... Wonder if there is room to throw in some Master Thrower as well...
#6 dandu May 22, 2009 4:05:18	Other good things you can do for Rogues is to dip in Swordsage when you have a total initiator level of 5 to gain access to Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack and the Shadow Hand feat which lets you add your Dex mod to damage with certain weapons such as short swords and daggers.
#7 Sword_of_Spirit May 22, 2009 15:31:16	I like these responses, they get me thinking. I probably should nix bard. Conceptually I like it, but statistically I can't justify it, unless there is some sort of extremely useful synergistic bard feat that I can take. Instead, I'm considering 2 levels of (Pathfinder) wizard (Conjurer). This nets me minor spells and the ability to enchant my own bonded weapon as if I had the item creation feats (nice!). But more importantly, it also provides a +2 untyped AC bonus, and the cantrips that I would really like my character to have for flavor purposes. I'm also thinking of ditching barbarian, but adding 4 levels of fighter (targeteer). If my calculations are correct, this is the net change at 20th level, compared to taking all 20 levels in rogue: Rogue 12, (Urban) Ranger 2, Fighter (Targeteer) 4, Wizard (Conjurer) 2 -4d6 Sneak Attack -Master Strike -4 Advanced rogue abilities -2 Trap sense -40 Skill point +4 hp +2 AC (untyped) +5 Fort +2 Ref +2 Will +1 additional attack +Two-weapon fighting +Armor Training (+1 AC) +Vital aim +2 Fighter (targeteer) bonus feats +Favored enemy +2 (human) +Arcane Bond (weapon) +Class Skills: All +1 Will vs fear +(Urban) Tracking +Wild Empathy (1/2) +5 First level spells (1 recalled) +Cantrips At 28th level I'll be rogue 20, and then I'll gain all of those missed rogue abilities, with a trade off (versus a 28th level rogue) of: -4d6 Sneak attack -2 Epic feats -4 Trap sense Since skill ranks work differently in Pathfinder, the loss of epic rogue levels shouldn't significantly reduce his ability to qualify for epic feats. I'm considering taking Elusive Dance and Flick of the Wrist, in combination with Quick Draw and carrying several daggers, to allow him to use ranged sneak attacks to good advantage. I'd like to have him use shortswords in melee, but it looks as if it might be better to stick with daggers in order to devote all weapon feats to the same weapon type. I'm going all out on the dual wielding, with Greater and eventually Perfect Two-weapon fighting. Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker are also looking like great choices to keep the sneak attacks coming, as well as a couple epic feats to increase their effectiveness. In Pathfinder, sneak attacks work against almost all creatures, so are there any feats that would be especially useful for getting in more sneak attacks? I'd welcome any other suggestions regarding either feat/ability choices for the class build that I'm considering, or even suggestions for alternate classes or levels. Unfortunately, my DM isn't too keen on ToB classes, so the swordsage wouldn't be allowed in.
#8 gorfnad_the_shiznit May 22, 2009 17:41:02	Let me try. You said you were using some pathfinder. Human 1. Rogue - Craven, TWF 2. Rogue - B: Rogue Talent: Weapon Finesse 3. Rogue - Point Blank Shot (Penetrating Strike substitution from Dungeonscape) 4. Rogue - B: Rogue Talent: Combat Expertise 5. Targeteer Fighter - B: Weapon Focus Dagger 6. Targeteer Fighter - Far Shot, B: Vital Aim 7. Targeteer Fighter 8. Targeteer Fighter - B: Weapon Specialization Dagger 9. Cobra Strike Monk - Carmendine Monk, B: Dodge 10. Cobra Strike Monk - B: Mobility (Spell Reflection from Complete Mage) 11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw 12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting 13. Invisible Blade 14. Invisible Blade 15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting 16. Invisible Blade 17. Invisible Blade 18. Duelist - Rapid Shot 19. Duelist 20. Duelist BAB 18, Int to AC nearly 3x!, Dex to Damage (twice in some circumstances), 16 daggers thrown per round, Sneak Attack 5d6+20. If you can go with Hit-and-Run Tactics (DoTU) fighter subs adding in as well for even more dex to damage. Also Targeteer gets you exotic weapon prof with two ranged weapons of your choice. If you can I would go with either Drow Long Knives (counts as daggers for feats/abilities!) (SoX), Desert Throwing Knife (SS), Whip or Whip-Dagger (AEG), or Harpoon (Sneak Attack + Harpoon = a lot of damage when they try to pull the harpoon out!) (SW, FB) . For Equipment I would go with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM), Rogue's Vest (MIC), and a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC) or a reworked to Bandoleer of Infinite Daggers (formerly Quiver of Anariel, replace arrow(s) with dagger(s) and quiver(s) with bandoleer(s)) Taken from The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver. Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes. Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb. Only using a build that has two levels of spellcasting at the very end of it is meh. If you just keep shoving ranks here and there into UMD you should be fine.
#9 muertog May 23, 2009 12:01:11	Don't forget the orisons as well. Touch attacks w/ Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead could be used unlimted number of times per day, and would qualify for sneak attacks as well.
#10 Sword_of_Spirit May 25, 2009 15:39:55	Hmmm...this is cool. Gorfnad's character looks definitely broken--this is good. Hehe... Unfortunately, I doubt my DM would let me go that far. So trying to take all the information in so far, I'm going to go with something in the middle of my less powerful and these more powerful, so that I can try to satisfy the power needs of the campaign, while not going beyond what the DM will allow. I'm going to start with that example I was thinking of, but replace the wizard with bard, because I misread one thing in Pathfinder Conjurer and misinterpreted another, causing me to lose the two best benefits. I'm most definitely going to try to fit in the Craven feat (reflavored for my character, since I don't even want the word "craven" on his character sheet), and the Extra Finesse feat. Those are the "iffy" ones with whether I'll be allowed them by the DM. Everything else should work together quite nicely. I'm going to ask for a dispensation from my DM to let me exchange the two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies from Targetteer for a proficiency with the drow long knife, and try to sell him on letting it be P or S--which would essentially be blowing two exotic weapon proficiencies for the ability to use a 1d6 damage dagger--sounds fair to me. That's only for his primarily melee us dagger, since I'd rather have him use a shortsword in his primary hand as a matter of character concept. I'm going to try to go exclusively dagger for weapons so that I can focus weapon feats on it. It's looking like Adaptable Flanker is a good feat to let me get in more sneak attacks. I'm going to aim for putting as much damage into daggers and sneak attacks as I can, and then getting as many sneak attacks as I can. Once I go epic Sneak Attack of Opportunity and Lingering Sneak Attack (I think that's the name) will be devastating.
#11 gorfnad_the_shiznit May 25, 2009 16:02:13	I'm going to ask for a dispensation from my DM to let me exchange the two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies from Targetteer for a proficiency with the drow long knife, and try to sell him on letting it be P or S--which would essentially be blowing two exotic weapon proficiencies for the ability to use a 1d6 damage dagger--sounds fair to me. Thrown weapons, like daggers, are considered ranged weapons. So hopefully you can get the Drow Long Knives and something else like the ones I mentioned previously. Taken from the SRD Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee... Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons... Also one of the fairly balanced builds I've used once before in a campaign is this: Human 1. Rogue - Craven, Point Blank Shot 2. Rogue 3. Rogue - Precise Shot 4. Swashbuckler -B: Weapon Finesse 5. Swashbuckler 6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting 7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus: Dagger 8. Fighter - B: Far Shot 9. Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting 10. Fighter - B: Weapon Specialization Dagger 11. Invisible Blade 12. Invisible Blade - Combat Reflexes 13. Invisible Blade 14. Invisible Blade 15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting 16. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw 17. Master Thrower 18. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot 19. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows 20. Master Thrower Now with Pathfinder Rogue and Targeteer your mileage on a build like this would vary but it might give you some ideas on how to construct your own dagger wielding/throwing build. Here are some other builds that might provide some insight Other more complicated builds: Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5/ Warblade 2 Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Warblade 6 Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Warblade 1/ Bloodclaw Master 5 Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5 Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Master Thrower 2/ Fixed Invisible Blade (by original author/creator) 10 Rogue 3/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Whisper Knife 5 (for halflings only) Rogue 3/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Duelist 5 (Int to AC x3!) Any of the builds with Monk use either Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius for Int to AC instead of Wis. All of these builds will throw 16 daggers a round. And this link has some nice dagger throwing builds as well: Machine Gun Rogue