this is my first post, and my first attempt to Min/Max a Character seriously; I'm also not American or English, so forgive me for my poor English ;) .
I'd like to build a caster that could, at Level 20 or previous, cast 9-level spells, both Arcane and Divine.
I can use all the books, all classes, races, variants, spels, feats, etc.
Premise 1:
I can qualify for the Prc of the Mystichal Theurge at 5° Level with Precocious Apprentice and Focused Specialist variant of Complete Mage
My build is:
Race: Human
Classes: Wizard 1\ Cleric 3\ Mysthical Theurge 10\ True Necromance 6
So I can cast 9-Level Divine Spells and 8-Level Arcane Spells.
Focused Specialist: Conjurer; Prohibited Schools: Enchantement, Abjuration and Illusion
Alignement: Lawful Neutral
Deity: Wee Jas
Domains: Magic and Death
Initial Rolls (increments):
Strenght: 10 (+6 Belt of Excellence) = 16
Dexterity: 10 (+6 Belt of Excellence) = 16
Constitution: 14 (+6 Belt of Excellence) = 20
Intelligence: 16 (+3 level incr., +5 Tome INT, +6 Belt of Excellence) = 30
Wisdom: 16 (+2 level incr., +5 Tome WIS, +6 Belt of Excellence) = 29
Charisma: 14 (+6 Belt of Excellence) = 20
Saving Throws:
Fortitude +18 (Base +8, COS +5, Mantle of Resistance +5)
Reflex +14 (Base +6, DES +3, Mantle of Resistance +5)
Will +31 (Base +17, WIS +9, Mantle of Resistance +5)
BaB +10/+5, HP 185, Iniziative +3(DES)
Armor Class:
10 + 9 (+5 Mithral chain shirt, Twilight enchantement) + 6 (+5 Mithral Bukler Moderate Fortification) + 3 (DES) + 5 (Amulet of NaturalArmor +5) + 5 (Ring of Protection +5) = 38
Attack:
+16/+11 Melee +3 Adamantine Defensive Light Mace
+13/+8 Melee, Touch Attack
+13/+8 Ranged, Ray
Skills with Ranks: Concentration, 23 ranks; Decipher Scripts, 12 ranks; Heal, 6 ranks; Knowledge (arcana), 23 ranks; Knowledge (history), 5 ranks; Knowledge (religion), 23 ranks; Knowledge (the planes), 7 ranks; Search, 6 ranks; Sense Motive, 10 ranks; Speak Language, 6.5 ranks; Spellcraft, 23 ranks.
Other possessions: Ring of Invisibility
Feats:
1° level: Collegial Wizard
1° level (human): Precocious Apprentice
3° level: Combat Casting ==> maybe I can change it
6° and 9° level: Practiced Spellcaster (Cleric, Wizard)
12° level: Spell Focus (necromancy) ==> for the Prc True Necromancer
15° level: Spell Penetration
18° level: Greater Spell Penetration
This is what I have done; I'm sure that I've forgot to write something, but I'll write later.
I'm sure, too, that there are ways to make a PC better than this, and it's because I wrote this post.
I'm asking help from you, Great Gods of CO :D .
Valerio
P.S.: please, when you write some class, or feat, etc., write the book of reference. Thanks.
**Edit - also don't worry, in a few minutes people will start posting Ur-Priest/SublimeChord builds which are crazy-powerfull!
And another thing, I'm neither English, nor American and I speak English fluently! It's even my primary language, my mother tongue, if you will.
Go Go Canada! (Or, maybe Australia! if I was Australian!, which is also neither English nor American!)
Go Go Urpriest builds, taking it toooooo tomorrow!
I find 9th level spells at 15th to be hilarious. My only regret is that you can't be an ur-priest and a ruby knight vindicator. That would be extremely tech.
With the feat versatile spellcaster you can sacrifice 2 X level sorc spells to cast any X+1 Cleric spell spontaneously. Sacrifice 2, 3rd level spells and you can cast any 4th level cleric spell spontaneously.
Sacrifice two 8th level Sorcerer spells and cast any 9th level sorcerer spell spontaneously.
And unlike other builds you won't be behind a cleric much during the entire progression.
----
The above build gets sick with loredrake and draconic reservior (aka koblod shenanigans)
Druid 3/(Conjurer, Transmuter, or Domain) Martial Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT +2
That get's you 9th in both (but not until 20th level), and Wild Shape, + your familiar/companion can become quite useful (at least, versatility wise). If you can get away with either Precocious Apprentice or Southern Magician for early entry (It's not RAI, according to the FAQ, but I and most of the other DM's I play with allow it most of the time), trade two of those Wizard levels for MT levels, and you end up a 19 Druid/17 Wizard.
With Ur-priest, I usually just go (and this probably isn't optimal, but frankly, I don't get to get away with this sort of thing, generally, someone will probably come by with something better)...
Cloistered Cleric of a Dead God 1 (Trade all three domains for Devotion feats)/(Conjurer, Transmuter, or Domain) Martial Wizard 4/Ur-Priest 2/MT +8/Incantatrix 4/Archmage 1
That's 10th level Ur-Priest (9ths) and 17th level Wizard casting, Persist cheese with Incantatrix, 3 free Devotion feats (suggest Knowledge, Travel, and one other), and DMM-Quicken cheese (potentially) with Ur-Priest. You get clerical 9ths by 15th level, but don't get wizard 9ths til 20th.
@Weezel: I was sure that, taking levels in Mysthical Theurge, I would have write new spells in my spellbook. Damn, but thanks
.@sofawall: Yes, ° = th. And thanks for your "coherent" reply. Mine is: when your country was nothing more than a frozen prairie, mine was a Great Kingdom. Savoia Ruled!
@Dr_Rocktopus: I was thinking about the Ur-Priest. Where is the Ruby Knight Vindicator?
@Phoenix00: thank you, where are the feat Versatuke Spellcaster and the Mindbender?
@pithica: I can use Precocius Apprentice, so the exchange is done; where are Martial Wizard and Cloistered Cleric of a Dead God?
Thanks a lot to everybody, I'll do some builds, and then I'll write again.
Valerio
@Weezel: I was sure that, taking levels in Mysthical Theurge, I would have write new spells in my spellbook. Damn, but thanks
I'm not Weezel, but I disagree with his reading of the Collegiate Wizard Feat. I believe MT (or any other +1 CL class you add to wiz) should get you 4 spells to your spellbook with Collegiate Wiz. The feat does specify levels in wizard, but the FAQ says that +1 CL prc's that add to wizard get to add spells to their spellbook 'as if they had gained a level of wizard'. The FAQ isn't really 'rules', but in this case, it makes sense, at least to me.
@Dr_Rocktopus: I was thinking about the Ur-Priest. Where is the Ruby Knight Vindicator?
RKV is in the Tome of Battle (Book of Nine Swords).
@Phoenix00: thank you, where are the feat Versatuke Spellcaster and the Mindbender?
Versatile Spellcaster is in Races of the Dragon
Mindbender is in Complete Arcane
@pithica: I can use Precocius Apprentice, so the exchange is done; where are Martial Wizard and Cloistered Cleric of a Dead God?
Martial Wizard is a variant found in the SRD and/or Unearthed Arcana. You change out wizard bonus feats (including Scribe Scroll) for fighter bonus feats. In almost every case, I get much more use out of a feat like Improved Initiative than I ever will out of scribe scroll.
Cloistered Cleric is another variant (of cleric) found in the SRD/UA. You gain the knowledge domain and 6+int skills, as well as some additional spells to the cleric list, in exchange for lower hitdice, BAB, and only light armor prof. It's generally better than regular cleric as you just trade out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion. In this case, I recommend picking two other devotion feats (the max you can take as a cleric trading domains).
The 'of a dead god' thing is just a way of saying that your CC level cannot cast divine spells and therefore the character still qualifies for Ur-priest. You could also do a 'fallen priest' instead, one who did something bad enough that his patron refuses to grant spells to him. I initially only took cleric looking for a boost to fort saves and for an excuse to take Spell Focus-Evil, then I realized that I could trade three domains for devotion feats, and put it first for the skill points, and it wouldn't really be a 'dead level' even though it didn't boost casting in any real way.
Damn, now I kind of want to play that build...
First of all, thanks for the reply.
@Weezel: I was sure that, taking levels in Mysthical Theurge, I would have write new spells in my spellbook. Damn, but thanks
@sofawall: Yes, ° = th. And thanks for your "coherent" reply. Mine is: when your country was nothing more than a frozen prairie, mine was a Great Kingdom. Savoia Ruled!
@Dr_Rocktopus: I was thinking about the Ur-Priest. Where is the Ruby Knight Vindicator?
@Phoenix00: thank you, where are the feat Versatuke Spellcaster and the Mindbender?
@pithica: I can use Precocius Apprentice, so the exchange is done; where are Martial Wizard and Cloistered Cleric of a Dead God?
Thanks a lot to everybody, I'll do some builds, and then I'll write again.
Valerio
Italian huh?
Well I'm from where they say is the most beautiful country "the Land of the Long White Cloud" :D
Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge is the way to go.. But I prefer the Ultimate Magus/Archmage spellcasting route. You sure you want a Divine spellcaster?
Without Ur-priest or Sublime Chord...
Out of curiosity pray tell what is this build?
I'm not Weezel, but I disagree with his reading of the Collegiate Wizard Feat. I believe MT (or any other +1 CL class you add to wiz) should get you 4 spells to your spellbook with Collegiate Wiz. The feat does specify levels in wizard, but the FAQ says that +1 CL prc's that add to wizard get to add spells to their spellbook 'as if they had gained a level of wizard'. The FAQ isn't really 'rules', but in this case, it makes sense, at least to me.
Is that an official rule? Because as written you only gain spells for free in your spellbook when gaining a new level in the Wizard class. I don't believe there are any PrC that don't have the clause "not any other features of that class" attached after the gaining spells/day class feature.....
That being said, when I DM or play Wizards I've always allowed levels of PrC to grant new spells in the book like a straight wizard, but I'm curious as to whether this has been officially updated as RAW ?
Q:I can't find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that get bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels.
A:They do add spells to their lists. Fore example, a wizard/loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.
That's 3.0, mind you, but nothing's changed in the 3.5 revision about how that works. Just looking at a 3.5 prestige class, you'll see the following...
Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.
Personally, I am of the opinion that this means that +1 PrC's that advance base spellcasting classes with 'Advanced Learning' features (like Beguiler or Warmage) also get the advance learning, since it's 'spells known', but I seem to be in the minority there. But it certainly means that Wizards get to add to their spellbooks (that's their spells known), and sorcerors get to add to their personal repertoire.
The only thing that isn't supposed to advance as a wizard with a PrC are class features specifically tied off of wizard level, like the familiar.
For this particular feat, I could see a DM legitimately reading it as tied off wizard level, but I could personally am not reading it that way, based on how I read the FAQ entry.
The FAQ isn't considered RAW, generally, around here. But that's how I read the RAW on Spellcasting advancement myself, both as a DM and player, and only looked it up in the FAQ when someone tried to argue that 'Spellbook' was a separate class feature than 'Spellcasting' (a long time ago).
Out of curiosity pray tell what is this build?
Which build? Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord? I don't know what a really optimized one would be, but I would probably go something like...
Cloistered Ex-Cleric 1/Bard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mindbender 1/MT 1/Sublime Chord 1/MT +9
Or the same thing but change out Mindbender for 2 levels of MT, then two levels of sublime chord for Song of Arcane Power.
If you mean the build without either, I already listed it.
You could also go erudite with the Spell to Power variant combined with Ur-priest and Psychic Theurge. That one might be pretty sweet, since you'd effectively have Powers, Arcane, and Divine spells all at 9th level.
so I guess it would be...
Savage Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-priest 2/MT2/Sublime Chord 2/MT +8
I like that, pretty solid flavor for a 'shaman' type character.
If you take spontaneous caster classes (I used Sorcerer and Shugenja), the combination of Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon p101) and Heighten Spell (PHB/SRD) will let you cast 2nd level spells at class level 1. SRD states that a skill that is a class skill for any class you have levels in has max ranks = total level +3 (same as class skill), and both of the required skills for MT are class skills in Shugenja.
Admittedly, Heighten spell is of very little use, but allowing a dual-casting PrC at char level 4 is probably worth it.
This build won't meet the requirements of True Necromancer, but I'm sure that by level 13 it could get into some other dual-progression PrC.
Edit: I think Favored Soul instead of Shugenja might be able to qualify for TN? Don't have all my books handy ATM to doublecheck.