I am building a savage fighter for my next game and would like some advise on the build. The theme is Wolverine with a big fat hammer instead of claws... and hes kind of short and trying to compensate...
My plan is to enter Deepwarden (RoS p.105) and Fist of the Forest (CC p. 80) as soon as possible for the Con bonus to AC (houseruled to stack), and also get dungeon crasher I as fast as possible. To make it happen I'm allowed two flaws. As I need endurance to enter Deepwarden I might as well go Steadfast Determination (PH2 p. 82) for the nice synergy with Con.
I'm planning on keeping Fist of the forest 2 & 3 in the build, because I really want scent. It can be pushed back a few levels if needed though. Same goes for Shock Trooper (CW p. 112) and Steadfast Determination.
Now to my questions.
Any other suggestions? I'd prefer not to be a tool lategame, but whats a non-lockdown, non-ToB fighter to do?..
Books allowed: All WotC
Goal: Smash bad guys and monsters hard with a
Build version 3:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1007894&highlight=Urgosh
You would probably swap out some of the PT or OS for FotF levels, and since you are taking flaws, you can squeeze in Dungeoncrasher I where I currently have Weapon Focus. Notice the use of Pious Templar to qualify for EWM (yea, you spend 1 feat for True Believer, but you gain 2 back at level 4 from Weapon Spec at 3 and the Fighter bonus at 4.) Alternatively, you could grab Steadfast Determination instead of Hold the Line since you aren't using an Urgosh with a "set for charge" end.
Let me know what you think, and if you'd use part of my build for yours.
Uh.... Major Titan bloodline for Gargantuan Warhammer at 12. Yeah, it's sub-optimal if you don't abuse the bloodlines, so shoot me.
I never tried bloodlines but they seem pretty horrible... As I see major titan bloodline I give up 3 levels for the following (listed by usefullnes):
- Use oversized weapon
- +2 Natural Armor (ok)
- Power Attack (nice), Improved sunder (meh)
- +2 sense motive, jump, concentration, knowledge (X) (meh)
- +1 strength, constitution and inteligence
- DR 5/lawful (meh@lvl 20)
- Titan Afinity +6 (meh)
- Misc. minor spellike abilities (meh)
Not sure how Use oversized weapon works. Titans are Huge and they use a Gargantuan hammer (1 size larger). I figure this means I can wield a large weapon instead of a medium?
My current build uses level of Feat Rogue (UA p. 58) to gain a fighter feat. If I got power attack for "free" from titan blooded, I could drop feat rogue, but were still looking at giving up 2 levels for 2 NA, Power attack, and use oversized weapon... I don't see how thats worth it?
//Rune
I built kind of a similar character a bit ago, except I used an Urgosh as a single weapon to utilize Flurry of Strikes from EWM instead of Uncanny Blow. You could swap Urgosh for Dwarven Waraxe to use Uncanny Blow. Otherwise you could go with a Dire Flail if you really want bludgeoning damage, but you lose the benefit of essentially free EWProficiency with a Dwarven weapon.
Blundgeoning is not that important. It could be an axe. And with my current feats it needs to one of the d0rf special weapons, as I can't afford an excotic weapon proficiency.
You would probably swap out some of the PT or OS for FotF levels, and since you are taking flaws, you can squeeze in Dungeoncrasher I where I currently have Weapon Focus. Notice the use of Pious Templar to qualify for EWM (yea, you spend 1 feat for True Believer, but you gain 2 back at level 4 from Weapon Spec at 3 and the Fighter bonus at 4.) Alternatively, you could grab Steadfast Determination instead of Hold the Line since you aren't using an Urgosh with a "set for charge" end.
Let me know what you think, and if you'd use part of my build for yours.
I like your build. I just updated mine with Pious Templar (3) and Exotic Weapon Master (2) for EWS Flurry of strikes and Uncanny Blow. I might go Pious Templar (4) in the final levels.
//Rune
I never tried bloodlines but they seem pretty horrible... As I see major titan bloodline I give up 3 levels for the following (listed by usefullnes):
- Use oversized weapon
- +2 Natural Armor (ok)
- Power Attack (nice), Improved sunder (meh)
- +2 sense motive, jump, concentration, knowledge (X) (meh)
- +1 strength, constitution and inteligence
- DR 5/lawful (meh@lvl 20)
- Titan Afinity +6 (meh)
- Misc. minor spellike abilities (meh)
Not sure how Use oversized weapon works. Titans are Huge and they use a Gargantuan hammer (1 size larger). I figure this means I can wield a large weapon instead of a medium?
My current build uses level of Feat Rogue (UA p. 58) to gain a fighter feat. If I got power attack for "free" from titan blooded, I could drop feat rogue, but were still looking at giving up 2 levels for 2 NA, Power attack, and use oversized weapon... I don't see how thats worth it?
//Rune
Well, as I said, if you don't abuse the bloodlines then they are sub-optimal. At least you need a class feature that is keyed off your level that the bloodline could advance. But you would be able to use a Gargantuan weapon no matter what your own size, since Titans can use a Gargantuan weapon no matter what size they assume with Alternate Form.
8) Would an early entrance Topaz Guardian (Lords of Madness p. 203) be worth the required Quick Recovery feat? Imunity to metal control is sweet and 2 good saves and a bonus to AC and Saves is nice.
9) I was thinking of taking the quick trait (UA p. 89). For most characters this feat has written TRAP all over it, but for this guy it might be viable. This would give him a movement of 50 = 20 (base) + 10 (feral) + 10 (quick) + 10 (Fist of the forest).
//Rune
Well, as I said, if you don't abuse the bloodlines then they are sub-optimal. At least you need a class feature that is keyed off your level that the bloodline could advance. But you would be able to use a Gargantuan weapon no matter what your own size, since Titans can use a Gargantuan weapon no matter what size they assume with Alternate Form.
Thanks. Could you point me to an example or post where I can read about possible abuses?
//Rune
Are you really set on Feat Rogue? Is Trapfinding and a reflex save boost all that? Options to consider ...
Wizard 1 w/ UA fighter feat variant and spec. conjurer abrubt jaunt
You get INT mod/day abrupt jaunts as immediate actions ... weapon focus (from the bonus feat) and access to wizard spells. There are plenty of non-CL dependent wizard spells at 1st level that are just handy ... and you can use items. At the very least you get a way to re-set a charge INT times/day.
Cleric 1 (w/ War Domain & some devotion)
Cloistered if you want. Even with your 8 CHA you get 2 turning attempts, enough to fuel some devotions an extra time or two. Not quite enough to do Animal twice, but you could do Plant twice and who doesn't love fortification and more natural armor? With a WIS item you can even cast spells (which I expect you'll have at some point thanks to Pious Templar). Remember that devotion feats scale with character level. Fire Devotion adds damage to all your melee attacks (although, it's fire) ... anyway, scan through them.
Both net you weapon focus, but not Trapfinding.
Thanks. Could you point me to an example or post where I can read about possible abuses?
Where can I find a table on scaling weapon damage to a different sizes?
//Rune
The weapon would be mainly a looks thing. Looking up the Titan reveals the Warhammer does 4d6 damage, and is wielded in two hands with no penalty. This is... uh, not really ground-breaking compared to a 3d6 Large Goliath hammer, for instance, which you can take with just +1LA.
Edit: I had always interpreted the Titan ability as limited to Warhammers. Well, I guess it's not a big stretch to use it for any weapon. However, I would assume a base one-handed weapon is then wielded in two hands. If it's exotic, EWM would yield 2xStr to damage at some point, right?
As to bloodline abuse: There are (IIRC) two main abuses: Supermount (animal companion), and Eldritch blast. All involve taking multiple classes that advance a feature by one level, and then having all three levels of bloodline apply to that advancement for every class. So in effect you get four levels for every single level dip that you take that advances your feature.
I don't remember if any of these abuses were counter-acted by errata or custserv rulings recently. RAW they seem to work.
Honestly, from a damage/round output basis, I'd say you are best of using an Urgosh. Flurry is a stronger ability than Uncanny Blow (50% more damage from str vs an extra attack with 1.5x str and power attack attached). The trick is to only wield 1 end of the Urgosh at a time, thus avoiding all the multitude of nasty TWF penalties (namedly being denied PA on the offhand, and crappy str damage returns) which qualifies you for Flurry by virtue of being a double weapon (never says you have to use both ends at once to benefit from Flurry).
How bent on taking levels of FotF are you? I think its a very specialized class that requires a very specialized build, leading into a class like Bear Warrior or Frostrager, and focusing on actually making unarmed attacks. Since you want to use a weapon (usually a better choice in damage by virtue of more str/PA benefit as well as enchants). You would primarily be taking it for the con-AC thing and the fast movement, neither of which are worth the rather steep prereqs and the requirements of being unarmored. Armor is a very important piece of gear, being a location to pile on cheap enhancements that gain you more than just AC.
The weapon would be mainly a looks thing. Looking up the Titan reveals the Warhammer does 4d6 damage, and is wielded in two hands with no penalty. This is... uh, not really ground-breaking compared to a 3d6 Large Goliath hammer, for instance, which you can take with just +1LA.
As to bloodline abuse: There are (IIRC) two main abuses: Supermount (animal companion), and Eldritch blast. All involve taking multiple classes that advance a feature by one level, and then having all three levels of bloodline apply to that advancement for every class. So in effect you get four levels for every single level dip that you take that advances your feature.
I don't remember if any of these abuses were counter-acted by errata or custserv rulings recently. RAW they seem to work.
Then there're binding and initiator level abuses too...
Instead of Extra Essentia, how about a level of totemist ... or are their alignment crap things going on? Nothing says love like adding a charge, gore or other crap on to your attack sequence. You're going to get the most extra damage out of this character by things that add damage to each and increasing the number of attacks as best you can. Snap Kick? Leap Attack?
If I am going Incarnate or totemist Extra Essentia is a must (for a two level dip it doubles essentia). Alignment is not really important, but if I go incarnate I need it to be lawful (+1 atk/essentia) or Evil (+2 damage/essentia) which sucks (wolverine is not lawful nor evil). I'll look into some of the totemist Soulmelds, as they are probably a better match thematically (I'd like sphinx claws, but I can't find a way to make it viable).
Are you really set on Feat Rogue? Is Trapfinding and a reflex save boost all that? Options to consider ...
I'm not set on feat rouge. It was just the option that I thought of to get me Weapon Focus :embarrass Your suggestions are way better. Wizard would be nice, but my Intelligence will be too low (base 10 after level 5) to make good use of abrubt jaunt etc.
Cleric with War Domain and some other would be nice. I'm planning on keeping my wisdom just high enough, so I don't think I'll get a devotion. But Luck domain is also quite useful.
I'll update my build later (or mabye tomorrow).
//Rune
Unless you get permission to bend the rules, you can't benefit from Uncanny Blow AND Flurry of Strikes at the same time. One requires a double weapon or spiked chain (all of which are 2handed weapons). The other requires a 1handed exotic weapon wielded in both hands. The two are mutually exclusive. The only way you might be able to get around it is to use a Kusiri Gama (DMG) or Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona) which are both 1handed "chain" type exotic weapons, however neither are "d0rf" type special weapons.
Thanks. I was going by memory on Flurry of Strikes. I'll remove it from the build. I did consider Kusiri Gama as made of 80% win! But i discarded it because it is a light weapon and though can't be used with power attack
Honestly, from a damage/round output basis, I'd say you are best of using an Urgosh. Flurry is a stronger ability than Uncanny Blow (50% more damage from str vs an extra attack with 1.5x str and power attack attached). The trick is to only wield 1 end of the Urgosh at a time, thus avoiding all the multitude of nasty TWF penalties (namedly being denied PA on the offhand, and crappy str damage returns) which qualifies you for Flurry by virtue of being a double weapon (never says you have to use both ends at once to benefit from Flurry).
Nice point. It all depends on how much str I can amass and how high I can get the base damage of the weapon.
How bent on taking levels of FotF are you? I think its a very specialized class that requires a very specialized build, leading into a class like Bear Warrior or Frostrager, and focusing on actually making unarmed attacks. Since you want to use a weapon (usually a better choice in damage by virtue of more str/PA benefit as well as enchants). You would primarily be taking it for the con-AC thing and the fast movement, neither of which are worth the rather steep prereqs and the requirements of being unarmored. Armor is a very important piece of gear, being a location to pile on cheap enhancements that gain you more than just AC.
I want FotF for both con to AC and Scent. The extra movement is nice and the rest is down the drain. I really want scent, but if I'm going cleric I might aswell go War + Bestial domains if I they can somehow be found/fitted to a forgotten reamls deity (non-evil, non-lawful) -- That way i could drop one or two levels of FotF.
Armor is nice, but I hit AC 39 at lvl 11 with this build. This can be improved by amulet of natural armor (+5), Bracers of armor (or the like, +8), Ring of protection (+5) and probably a few more items (suggestions please)? These items and +6 con would net me an ac of 59 (at lvl 7+). With a tome of +4 con this goes up to 63. Is it really that bad?
//Rune
As to bloodline abuse: There are (IIRC) two main abuses: Supermount (animal companion), and Eldritch blast. All involve taking multiple classes that advance a feature by one level, and then having all three levels of bloodline apply to that advancement for every class. So in effect you get four levels for every single level dip that you take that advances your feature.
So how would it work if I took a level of warlock at level 13? I am guessing my eldritch blast would be 2d6 but would I also gain invocations equal to a fourth level warlock (i.e. 3 lesser?)? If the later is the case, I'll try and fit in titan bloodline and 2 or 4 levels of warlock.
//Rune
And ... don't forget you can always throw on a monk's belt if you're going unarmored anyway. If you plan on having enough WIS to cast spells, that nets you another 1 from the belt base and your WIS mod ... and that's all to touch.
Yeah. I'm planning on getting a wisdom score of 12, so a monks belt (of battle and healing) is a must for another 2 AC.
On the touch AC issue: As deepwardens ability replaces dex, I assume it counts versus touch aswell? As the Fist of the forest AC bonus refers to the monk class feature I am guessing it counts versus touch too?
//Rune
//Rune
Also, concerning a previous post. I really like the Topaz Guardian PrC. Quick Recovery (the prereq) is a pretty amazing feat by itself. Combine that with the whole TG class give you a really strong defense against mind affecting and stun based abilities. This is good because at mid-high levels when you fight evil outsiders that have Blasphemy as an at will power, you can get Blasphemy locked by one critter while his minions tear you limb from limb. Plus, its a pretty neat class flavorwise too.
So how would it work if I took a level of warlock at level 13? I am guessing my eldritch blast would be 2d6 but would I also gain invocations equal to a fourth level warlock (i.e. 3 lesser?)? If the later is the case, I'll try and fit in titan bloodline and 2 or 4 levels of warlock.
//Rune
It needs a bit more than that:
The deal with the Warlock: The only thing that is advanced is your effective +1 Warlock level modifier for Eldritch blast (and possibly invocations, I'm really not quite sure about that), because EB damage is like a tabular lookup on the warlock level table. What makes it good is then taking a prestige class that has "+1 Caster level", because that advances the Warlock with respect to EB and invocations. Unfortunately most casting prestige classes also need spellcasting as a requirement. You'd also want a full BAB class for sure. IF you have a level of cleric, you can use that to qualify for the prestige class and have it advance your Warlock CL - at least if it's a non-specified arcane or divine PrC.
The logic behind this is a bit difficult: Casting PrCs advance caster level, EB damage and invocations gained for the Warlock. (So effectively +1 level becomes a numeric effect which causes a lookup on the Warlock level table.) Bloodlines advance caster level and any numeric effect directly calculated off your level. They do NOT advance spells known, etc. By my reckoning this means that the +1 level is the numeric effect that is advanced, everything else is taken off the Warlock table, because of the strange way Warlocks deal with casting PrCs. I recommend looking into CArc yourself to read up on it. I was pretty sure about the logic when I initially posted it in Warlock bloodlines thread. The trouble is, the way I see it now, you could just as well argue that +1 level becomes an effect for any casting class that is advanced.
The trouble with EB is that it allows spell resistance. Which means anything but a dedicated build won't really benefit from even having it. So unless you have some tricks in mind, I would shy away from EB. (If you were to get Vitriolic blast this would be alleviated, so you could have excellent melee and also some ranged options.)
Stuff...
I understand your point. I am allready considering Topaz Guardian that happens to advance non-specific caster level. I would not go warlock for EB but for the invocations (See the unseen, Baleful utterance, Entropic Warding & Fell flight).
Based on this
Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any
character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for
spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special
abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character
doesn’t gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from
the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations
of his level-based abilities are affected.
I don't think it is RAI to advance invocations on bloodline levels, so I think I'll drop this idea.
//Rune
In CArc it says (not quoted, just approximately) "Prestige class levels that advance casting STACK with Warlock levels to advance EB caster level, damage and Invocations known." This stacking is a critical argument, since it then becomes the same as with the supermount, where the whole point is that the levels stack before doing a tabular lookup, just as with Warlock.
Based on the paragraph in UA I agree that it was never RAI to advance invocations. But the reasoning behind Bloodlines is questionable, anyway. I think with just the benefits stated they offer too little to lose three levels, so double advancing things like caster level from multiple classes was intended to offset that. Most people simply don't use them because they are either not worthwhile or REALLY cheesy. When I suggested the bloodline I was only going with the image of the Dwarf with the huge weapon.
[...] When I suggested the bloodline I was only going with the image of the Dwarf with the huge weapon.
I like the idea of a dwarf with giant hammer (or axe). Preferably a hammer that would make the Hammer of Moradin dorf cry:
The damage increase from medium to gargantuan is significant, but I agree that it is not feasible to sacrifice 3 levels of bab/hd/saves and other goodies to get it. Any other suggestions to uppen the damage per hit?
//Rune
Any other suggestions to uppen the damage per hit?
//Rune
Take Leadership and get a Dragonwraught Kobald Bard co-hort with Dragonfire Inspiration and all of the optimized Inspire Courage gear and feats and abilities. Then have him cast Invisibility on himself and follow you around giving like, +7d6 sonic damage per hit.
I dunno, seemed like a good idea.
PS, bonus points if you name him Deekin....
Well, the only suggestion is spellcasting really, or listen to the Binder or Incarnum people, since I don't know anything about binders or Incarnum. It all seems to rock, but I just never had the patience to look into it.
I updated the build to fixe the mistakes. I added Cle1 (War & Bestial) for Weapon Focus and Scent, and removed Feat Rogue (Weapon Focus) and two levels of FotF. I also removed the excess level in EWM but added a level of Topaz Guardian instead versus enchantment(charm).
I really don't know what to do with the last 6 levels. For now I added 2 levels of feat rogue for the feats and spell reflection (to take advantage of high touch AC), but I'd rather pack some more punch.
Can't find any MoI stuff that I really like, so I have discarded it for now.
Spoke with the DM and he decided to allow ToB. Any suggestions on how this would improve the build?
//Rune
Spoke with the DM and he decided to allow ToB. Any suggestions on how this would improve the build?
//Rune
Heh, that seriously puts the bloodline back into business.
One level dip of Warblade with bloodline at 13 = IL of 11 for sixth level maneuvers, although I don't know whether you can immediately take a high level maneuver. Then dip swordsage or a PrC for another +4IL. The third one level dip should then take you to 9th level maneuvers - of course Time Stands Still, if you can somehow make the prereqs.
Actually it could get worse (but cheesier, too): Since any class adds 1/2 its level to IL, basically add three to any set of class levels and then take half of that. Since you have already been dipping madly, this is a potential for abuse, although it's made bearable by only taking half the total levels.
Actually I probably made a mistake above, because I added the Bloodline levels to the total levels. So after your dip at 13 your IL is either 8 (just one level higher) or madly higher from all your other dips. But any second ToB-class dip will give you more from the bloodline. I DO advise you to make your own calculations.
//Rune
Any advise on equipment that would be good on this guy?
My shopping list so far is:
Searching for weapon enchantments made it obvious that I need atleast one (preferably early) martial level to take advantage of Martial discipline weapon (ToB p. 148) which is too sweet to pass up...
Back to the drawing board :-S
//Rune
In that case I could choose the Hunters sense stance, effectively giving me scent and weapon focus with a 1 level dip (could replace my level 8 cleric 1 dip). And later on swordsage could replace the leveel 18-20 Topaz Guardian levels.
//Rune