I have the following sourcebooks available:
PHB1 and 2, MM1-3, DMG, Complete Series, Races of the Wild, Tome of Battle.
The character will be starting off at level 7 and expected to get to 12+, as such, it must be playable throughout.
Current Party is Barbarian, Wilder, Cleric (primarily a healer), Scout and one unknown, likely a fighter of some sort.
Currently I am strongly considering playing a Halfling, likely a Strongheart for the extra feat and starting off with:
Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 1
This will give me at least 2D6 sneak attack damage, plenty of feats, and returning daggers.
This then opens up possibilities for Invisible Blade, Whisperknife and Master Thrower.
I'm planning for the character to do most of its damage via sneak attacks, so I need some way of enabling them. Either Bloodstorm Blade 2 for Thunderous Throw seems useful, otherwise it looks like I'd need Invisible Blade 5 for the feint ability as a free action.
Could anybody confirm Thunderous Throws interactions with Point Blank Shot, Ranged Sneak attacks, and the Invisible Blades 'Weak Spot' ability? Also, would it let me Power Attack with Daggers?
Thanks, and if anybody has any questions, I will be happy to answer.
It's a shame Unearthed Arcana isn't allowed... Halfling Paragon is AWESOME for halfling throwers.
As for interaction between Thunderous Throws and Weak Spot, I'd think you wouldn't get to add your Str mod to the damage rolls still, but I'm assuming you're wondering about the power throw part... not sure how that would work, honestly.
I always wanted to do Bloodstorm Blade with a master thrower for returning, but burning a strike for each attack would run out quick... unless there's something I missed.
Anywho, I like this build for a thrower, using what you have available:
Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5/Fighter +1/Pious Templar 4\Holy Liberator 4/Pious Templar +1
- Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
- Rogue
- Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
- Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
- Swashbuckler
- Swordsage - Shadow Blade, B: Weapon Focus: Shadowhand
- Swashbuckler
- Swordsage - (Assassin's Stance)
- Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting, B: Quick Draw
- Whisperknife - B: Rapid Shot
- Whisperknife
- Master Thrower - Far Shot
- Master Thrower
- Master Thrower -B: Snatch Arrows
- Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
- Invisible Blade
- Invisible Blade
- Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
- Invisible Blade
- Invisible Blade
Strongheart Halfling
- Rogue- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
- Rogue
- Rogue - Weapon Finesse
- Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadowhand
- Warblade
- Bloodstorm Blade - Two Weapon Fighting
- Bloodstorm Blade
- Bloodstorm Blade - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
- Bloodstorm Blade - Rapid Shot or Shadow Blade
- Swordsage
- Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
- Master Thrower - Far Shot
- Master Thrower
- Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
- Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
- Invisible Blade
- Invisible Blade
- Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
- Invisible Blade
- Invisible Blade
A Ring of Blinking will allow you to get sneak attacks on almost every shot.
See if you can pick up Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape so that you can do something against undead and constructs.
The second character progression in particular looks very interesting, especially with the utility of being able to switch out for variously enchanted throwing daggers at a moments notice, I really like the idea. Although, would it not be better to replace the Warblade at 5th level with the second level of Swordsage? but then what to take at level 10? I could jsut go into Master Thrower a level early.
With regards to Thunderous Throw, I'm still very confused about whether the attack is technically a melee attack, or a ranged attack and this is currently hampering my decision.
For instance, I presume that I can use Lightning Ricochet with Thunderous Throw? This would imply that it is a ranged attack still, in at least some respects. In this case, would the Halfling Rogue substitution levels for extra ranged sneak attack damage apply?
Would I also be able to make use of the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats whilst attacking?
And finally, if I use the Master Throwers Weak Spot ability to make ranged touch attacks, does Thunderous Throw turn these into melee touch attacks?
EDIT: Also does thunderous throw mean that I can make sneak attacks against flanked opponents at range?
EDIT2: Can I Thunderous Throw and Palm Throw/Two with one blow at the same time?
Thank you all for your help.
WOuld I count as flanking an opponent if I was adjacent to them when using the ability? And would I provoke attacks of opportunity when doing attacking?
I really am sorry for asking so many questions here!
Although, would it not be better to replace the Warblade at 5th level with the second level of Swordsage? but then what to take at level 10? I could jsut go into Master Thrower a level early.
The reason I put it at 10th level was so that you can pick up Assassin's Stance for more sneak attack damage. You need to have an IL of 5+ in order to get it. Also in order to meet the prereqs for Bloodstorm Blade you need an Iron Heart stance and strike. Swordsage does not have access to Iron Heart maneuvers. Warblade does.
2. re: available material: what limits material? Say, if I post entire excerpts of the related options I advise, would that be fine?
3. re: playable throughout: You mean playable starting from level 7?
4. re: Cleric (primarily a healer): community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
5. Why Halfling? Just for Whisperknife and/or Strongheart? For the latter, that is a great choice.
6. Search "whisperknife":
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.ph...
forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t...
www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=27...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
7. re: enabling sneak-attacks: how about Sniping?
8. If Strength is low, the Master Thrower's "Palm Throw" and "Weak Spot" class features negate the Strength damage penalty. "Weak Spot" does not belong to the "Invisible Blade" PrC as the final question of your first post implies. Since Power Attack only applies to melee attacks, you'd need Bloodstorm Blade's "Thunderous Throw" class feature to be able to use it on a ranged attack. However, I believe there is something like a "Power Throw" feat in existence.
9. Why is Unearthed Arcana allowed? Is it too hard to go to this page?
10. The Targetteer's Vital Aim and the Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter variant (DotU) are interesting.
11. There's a Martial Rogue variant to nab "Precise Shot" and "Point Blank Shot" with less hassle/feat strain.
12. The "Dead Eye" feat lets you apply DEX to damage.
13. If you take Swashbuckler, check out the "Arcane Stunt" ACF from Complete Mage and the "Daring Warrior" and "Daring Outlaw" feats.
14. Can Iaijutsu Focus apply to ranged attacks?
15. There's a Sleight of Hand trick (a skill trick, but not traditional as it was made before such things from Complete Scoundrel) somewhere that lets you catch your opponent flat-footed with a sufficient SoH check vs. their Spot check when drawing. Quicker than the Eye, Deft Opportunist, Flick of the Wrist.
16. What about archery?
17. Talenta Boomering, Halfling skip-rocks. Chakram? Xen'drik?
18.
P.S. I hope this post eventually becomes comprehensive.
Right, that certainly makes sense, thank you. I'm definately liking that second build so far.
@ NiteCyper
Right, I think I can answer most of these questions.
1) My last character was a Halfling Outrider who had set out to earn enough money through adventurning to free his villiage from slavery. (Halflings are considered a slave-caste in this setting).
We are likely to have a full party restart as of next session due to us having been trapped underground in an air-tight room and infighting having robbed us of our way out!
2) With regards to available material, I would rather use materials that I have ready access to, but this can be gotten around at a stretch. However, certainly no flaws allowed.
3) Thats exactly what I mean.
4) I am awar e of the thread, our cleric is a new player and is perfectly happy to play a role as a healer and backup fighter using her cleric.
5) Halfling for RP reasons, a restart will likely involve us rescuing our old characters, or trying to get hold of the loot they found (which will likely become a legend in the future). Whisperknife was originally my plan in order to take vengeance on the people that killed my old character. :D
6) I did do some research on whisperknives before starting this thread, however, I wanted a way of making use of returning weapons efficiently before the levels Whisperknife would make practical.
7) Sniping is interesting, but I've never considered it as a way to build a character, plus there would be quite a few situations where it would be impractical.
8) Yes, sorry, I incorrectly stated that weak spot belonged to invisible blade, I meant to say master thrower. Power Throw requires Brutal Throw, which means I make throw attacks using Str instead of Dex. This is a possible route to go down. Alternatively, if I can find room for an extra feat, Power Attack with Bloodstorm Blade is very tempting, especially once I can touch attack using Weak Spot.
9) Nobody in my group has a copy.
10) Ditto above, I would rather not use Dragon Magazine for this build.
11) Certainly interesting, but most of my damage in this build will likely come off of sneak attacks, unless I go the Power Throw route maybe.
12) Interesting, I didn't know about that.
13) I don't think I'm that interested in Swashbuckler much, it doesn't seem to offer that much to the build over all.
14) I have no idea.
15) Thats very interesting, any idea where it is?
16) Current character has archery, I don't fancy going down the same route twice.
17)apart from skip-rocks, I'm not sure what books those are in/what they do. Skip Rocks are certainly a possibility, but will mean that I won't make use of Invisible Blade.
Strongheart Halfling:
- Halfling Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Trapfinding
- Halfling Rogue - Evasion
- Swasbuckler - Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting
- Warblade - Battle Clarity (+1 Reflex)
- Swordsage - Quick to Act (+1 Initiative), Weapon Focus(Shadowhand incl. Daggers)
- Bloodstorm Blade - Power Attack , Returning Attacks
- Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw
- Bloodstorm Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
- Bloodstorm Blade - Rapid Shot, Lightning Ricochet
- Swordsage - Wis bonus added to AC, Assassins Stance (+2D6 sneak attack)
- Master Thrower - Quick Draw, Palm Throw
- Master Thrower - Far Shot, Improved Evasion
- Master Thrower - Two With One Blow
- Master Thrower - Snatch Arrows
- Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Weak Spot
- Invisible Blade - Unfettered Defense
- Invisible Blade - Bleeding Wound
- Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot, Uncanny Feint (Move)
- Invisible Blade - Feint Mastery
- Invisible Blade - Uncanny Feint (Free)
Having read the errata for Master Throwers stating that Palm Throw counts as a volley attack, I've opted to shoehorn in Power Attack to make up for the loss in sneak attack damage.
At 20th level, with four daggers as his only posessions (19 dex, 13 Strength), a full attack ought to be (including an 8pt Power Attack adjustment):
+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0 Melee Touch Attacks for 2D3+4+16+7D6 damage per attack, which is 388 Damage per round, if it all hits. This should do me fine.
Thanks all.
Alternatives to Invis Blade
2 more levels of Swashbuckler, now add Int mod to damage
3 lvls of Whisperknife PrC, gives Rapid Shot, equivalently, and no longer provoke AoO when throwing. So now frees up that RS feat for something else
Plus w/o Invis Blade theres no need for it's pre-req Far Shot, imo, and frees that feat up
Feats:
Daring Outlaw; combine R/Sw lvls for determining SA dice...should work w/ Halfling Rogue imo
Telling Blow; trigger SA when confirm crits...just another SA trigger, i.e. do not get SA dice again if all ready getting SA from another trigger, such as opponent being flatfooted/flanked etc...
( 2 Cents )
Having read the errata for Master Throwers stating that Palm Throw counts as a volley attack, I've opted to shoehorn in Power Attack to make up for the loss in sneak attack damage.
At 20th level, with four daggers as his only posessions (19 dex, 13 Strength), a full attack ought to be (including an 8pt Power Attack adjustment):
With volley attacks, like Palm throw, only one of the two weapons thrown get the precision damage (sneak attack). So if you can throw say 16 daggers a round because of Palm Throw and Two Weapon Fighting et all, only 8 would recieve sneak attack (one per attack roll). If you want more sneak attack damage look into the feat Craven from Champions of Ruin.
I don't think Thunderous Throw gets around this but normally you don't gain any benefit when power attacking with light weapons, such as daggers.
Power Attack
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I can use Thunderous Throw to treat my ranged attack rolls as melee attacks, this should allow me to use feint with my thrown attacks, I believe.
@ gorfnad_the_shiznit
I had considered that, the wording of Thunderous Throw is as follows:
In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use power attack with your thrown weapon attacks.
I'm not sure if D&D is a system where permission to do something overrides something that says you can't, or vice versa.
If I cannot use Power Attack with thrown daggers, might it be worth using the character with non-light weapons instead, such as longswords, or something equally odd. Would Throw Anything technically make any weapon I hold a thrown weapon for the purposes of the Master Thrower class? (with regards to needing Weapon Focus in a thrown weapon)
For example, I could take Weapon Focus(Desert Wind) instead of Weapon Focus(Shadow Hand)
Then Drop Weapon Finesse and Far shot for two feats of my choice, and take my last five levels in something completely different.
@ Hsien
I can use Thunderous Throw to treat my ranged attack rolls as melee attacks, this should allow me to use feint with my thrown attacks, I believe.
@ gorfnad_the_shiznit
I had considered that, the wording of Thunderous Throw is as follows:In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use power attack with your thrown weapon attacks.
I'm not sure if D&D is a system where permission to do something overrides something that says you can't, or vice versa.
If I cannot use Power Attack with thrown daggers, might it be worth using the character with non-light weapons instead, such as longswords, or something equally odd. Would Throw Anything technically make any weapon I hold a thrown weapon for the purposes of the Master Thrower class? (with regards to needing Weapon Focus in a thrown weapon)
For example, I could take Weapon Focus(Desert Wind) instead of Weapon Focus(Shadow Hand)
Then Drop Weapon Finesse and Far shot for two feats of my choice, and take my last five levels in something completely different.
Well, you could go with the very amuzing katana chucker - OA Samurai 2/ Warblade 2/ Swordsage 1/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Swordsage 1/ Master Thrower 5/ Iaijustu Master 5 - choose Diamond Mind so that you can not only get Weapon Focus Katana but Weapon Focus Short Spear (short spear is a thrown weapon which qualifies you for Master Thrower). Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer) would allow you to dual wield katanas.
Strongheart Halfling:
- Halfling Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot,
- Halfling Rogue -
- Fighter - Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting
- Warblade -
- Swordsage - Weapon Focus(Diamond Mind incl. Short Spears/Tridents)
- Bloodstorm Blade - Power Attack
- Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw
- Bloodstorm Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
- Bloodstorm Blade - Rapid Shot, Lightning Ricochet
- Swordsage -
- Master Thrower - Quick Draw
- Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
- Master Thrower -
- Master Thrower - Snatch Arrows
- Master Thrower - ???
Alternatively, I could try and squeeze brutal throw and power throw in there and stick with the original plan...
Palm Throw – Each attack with little thrown weapons (i.e., daggers, shuriken, & darts) can be with two of the weapons. Do not apply your Strength modifier to the damage of either.
just a quick note... Weapons must be Small Sized ,.. IIRC.
Palm Throw – Each attack with little thrown weapons (i.e., daggers, shuriken, & darts) can be with two of the weapons. Do not apply your Strength modifier to the damage of either.
Little is not a defined game term.
And it is relative. If they'd said light weapons, yeah. They explicitly said daggers, but didn't say "appropriately sized daggers". Yeah, it's silly, but arguably legal.just a quick note... Weapons must be Small Sized ,.. IIRC.Palm Throw – Each attack with little thrown weapons (i.e., daggers, shuriken, & darts) can be with two of the weapons. Do not apply your Strength modifier to the damage of either.
Little is not a defined game term.
AFB's right now but if "i.e." is used in text as indicated by Carnivore then those are the weapons that can be used with Palm Throw, as "i.e" is used to indicate a clarification/explanation is about to follow; therefore "little thrown weapons" is defined as those 3 weapons, for this MT trick.
If "e.g." was used, which is just an example indicator, then other weapons would be possible.
AFB's right now but if "i.e." is used in text as indicated by Carnivore then those are the weapons that can be used with Palm Throw, as "i.e" is used to indicate a clarification/explanation is about to follow; therefore "little thrown weapons" is defined as those 3 weapons, for this MT trick.If "e.g." was used, which is just an example indicator, then other weapons would be possible.
Yeah, but I'm not suggesting he use something other than those three weapons. I'm suggesting he use a dagger. I'm just suggesting that he use an inappropriately sized dagger. One that isn't actually a light weapon for him, so he can power attack with it. He will take a further penalty to his attacks, but since they're all touch attacks that shouldn't be insurmountable.
I see what you mean now.
-2 to Hit when using a dagger sized for a medium creature, in this case, in order to treat it as a One-Handed Weapon, instead of Light.
Just couldn't do 2+ sizes up, because then they would be considered a 2-Handed weapons, which negatively impacts number of attacks/TWF chain.
- Halfling Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot,
- Halfling Rogue -
- Fighter - Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting
- Warblade -
- Swordsage - Weapon Focus(Shadowhand incl. Daggers)
- Bloodstorm Blade - Power Attack
- Bloodstorm Blade -
- Bloodstorm Blade - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
- Bloodstorm Blade - Rapid Shot
- Swordsage -
- Master Thrower - Quick Draw
- Master Thrower - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
- Master Thrower -
- Master Thrower - Snatch Arrows
- Master Thrower - Far Shot
- Invisible Blade -
- Invisible Blade -
- Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
- Invisible Blade -
- Invisible Blade -
Right... is there anything else in this build that won't work?