the problem is that the party is somewhat "optimised". Ok, we hit WAY above our weight. there ARE 8 of us, but to give you some idea, we routinly take out ECL+2's and have enough left for another go. ECL+3's tend to be either a total cake walk, OR are "skin of the teeth" affairs, and ECL+4's should be concidered "just chalenging enough".
The plot so far, FYI is that we're in the eberron setting, and the PC's are just about to get their hands on the UBer powerful artifact that Vol needs to be able to leave her throne room, The PC's are, once we';ve gotten our mits on it, going to destroy the "god freeing" artifact, and so you can pretty much assume that VOL is going to take it personally.
The party is as follows.
Grom: Ogre6, Warhulk X, Hulking hurler 2. Shtick, *lots* or reach, Trip, and Bullrush. and combat reflexes. Anthign casting within 30 or 40 feet tends to get killed. quickly.
Tomoe Delkear Halfblood, Ranger 5, Impure prince X. Shtick. Charges. A Lot. *really* hates aberations. Will charge, then flank, then use distracting strike, and / or trip to render target imobile ish.
Don juan human? Swashbuckler X. . Tumble Monkey. Mobility expert. *likes* the laydeez. The party Social adept, Will use a combination of Bluff and then Deft strike/disarm/trip.
able Whisper gnome Rogue X. Tumble monkey, Mobility expert. Never met a door that he couldnt open (and if he has, there's an ogre over there with a prtable battering ram...) Will flank, use Bluff / Flanking strike, and deft opportunist.
moonwisper. Elf Favoured soul X. Will hand out Buff's then snipe from Cover / behind the ogre (same thing?) then de-buff /heal /disrupt spell casting.
jarec Dragonblooded Warlock. UMD monkey. Tumble Monkey. Has persistant? FLight / Spider climbing. Has Pretty much permanent True seeing / Detect magic. Will snipe from cover / the roof / Uses entagling blast, and /or other de-buff's also disrupts spellcasting / softens up targets for cleaving front row fighters.
Anvil adamantine Warforged Psychich warior X Crafting monkey. in combat will either provide 2nd row support (reach weapon) or will go for the BBEG and prevent it from getting at the rest of the party. usually has Several buffs running, unless suprised. (and IF supprised will use dimdoor to get out of combat for a few 1 round buffs.)
guy Dragonblooded (or possibly a draconic humanoid, not 100% sure) Dragon shaman X. Uses aurors to Buff party, Breath weapons to stop bad guys from bunching up, and pretty much acts as body guard for back row.
For the above the level will probably add up to 11 or 12 by the end of the current story arc. In Real world terms, there's probably a few months of play left in the current adventure, and there's at least 2 side plots that need tieing up, so these guys probably are'nt going to be needed until april. Ish.
what i need are some idea's for 8 or 9 STRONG 12-13'th level Bad guys, (14 or 15 wouldnt be a problem, so long as they're not *broken* strong. These guys need to be a challenge, (and are going to get tweaked so that they are) but shouldnt be SO strong that they win in one round.....
as for books, pretty much anything goes, however No "book of 9 swords", and no "magic of incarnum". Other wise, pretty much everything else, so long as it's 3.5.
thanks in advance.
8 PCs w/ no dedicated Arcanist?!
I smell an excellent oppurtunity.
There are 8 PCs..... this makes enemy battlefield control a very appealing option. Also with no Arcanist they'll have quite a bit of trobule with said Battlefield control.
1 of your BBEGs should probably be a Focused Specalist Conjujer going any full casting PrC. If you'd perfer to not be so hard on your PCs..... just make it straight Focused Specalist Conjurer. Take the Abrubt Jaunt variant to allow the BBEG to stay away from your parties large array of Melee fighters and Flankers.
BC with mess with at least the Ranger, Swashbuckler and Rouge, possibly some of the others..... Flanking trip attemps and Fienghts all are useless inside a Solid Fog, Evad's Tentacles, ect. ect.
so. MSBEG (Medium sized Bad Evil guy) #1 is going to be a Conjuring specialist mage of some kind. . Will have to go crack a few books,
Buffer: I would have a War Weaver in there....Maybe something like Focused Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Paragonostic Apostle 2 (this guy can drop a quiescent weave on most of the BBEG party that will make your PCs cry...especially if only one or two of the PCs has True Seeing, can also snag spontaneous divination)
Sniper: Rogue 1/Sorceror 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (Spellwarping Wings of Flurry and Frost Breath to lock down the Ogre and open up the dance floor)
Tank: Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (Illumian w/aeshkrau, make him a pouncing charger, take versatile spellcaster to power wraithstrikes with Duskblade spells....with his own buffs plus the War Weaver buffs this guy should be a wrecking ball)
Summoner: Focused Conjurer/Malconvoker 5...........bring in some fun.
Battlefield Control 1: Focused Conjurer/full casting something (Abjrupt Jaunt and such and lay down some nasty battlefield spells, the war weaver's buffs should be able to give your guys what they need to get through the stuff on the battlefield)
Battlefield Control 2: Some chain tripper, the casters will be able to give him Greater Enlarge Person if he needs it, he should be flying and invisible and who knows what else as well. Maybe the Mage Slayer line of feats would be good too for your casters.
Just some basic ideas. A bigtime healer would be a nice addition as well.....maybe another Bardic War Weaver focused on healing.
Edit: Human Paragon 1/Martial Focused Transmuter 2/Lion Totem Barb 1/Human Paragon +2/Dread Commando 5 (Just for the team initiative bonus really...you could do whatever you want as long as you get Dread Commando 5 in there....I just wanted him to have pounce and wraithstrike...could go Dual Wield or something) with his team initiative plus someone putting Nerveskitter through the Weave, and a bunch of the characters nabbing Improved Initiative via the Heroics spell, these guys could be lethal in the first round
Use a DC optimized whatever to cast hold monster or similar on the hulking hurler to toss away the ranged power.
Use a pair of counterspell clerics like this to completely negate the favored soul and psychic warrior.
So, we've got to target the hurler's will save to drop him out of combat, two counterspells to drop both casters completely, and a lockdown to negate all melee ability. If you feel like it add in more lockdown as needed to beef up the melee damage. You can make due with only 3 or four enemies though.
Added bonus idea: Make all of the NPCs use legion devil (FC2) as the base creature for a pretty heft increase in the power of the encounter for a small increase in EL.
A group of bad guys who ALL have pretty much full casting should be quite the challenge.
Buffer: I would have a War Weaver in there....Maybe something like Focused Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Paragonostic Apostle 2 (this guy can drop a quiescent weave on most of the BBEG party that will make your PCs cry...especially if only one or two of the PCs has True Seeing, can also snag spontaneous divination)
Sniper: Rogue 1/Sorceror 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (Spellwarping Wings of Flurry and Frost Breath to lock down the Ogre and open up the dance floor)
Tank: Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (Illumian w/aeshkrau, make him a pouncing charger, take versatile spellcaster to power wraithstrikes with Duskblade spells....with his own buffs plus the War Weaver buffs this guy should be a wrecking ball)
Summoner: Focused Conjurer/Malconvoker 5...........bring in some fun.
Battlefield Control 1: Focused Conjurer/full casting something (Abjrupt Jaunt and such and lay down some nasty battlefield spells, the war weaver's buffs should be able to give your guys what they need to get through the stuff on the battlefield)
Battlefield Control 2: Some chain tripper, the casters will be able to give him Greater Enlarge Person if he needs it, he should be flying and invisible and who knows what else as well. Maybe the Mage Slayer line of feats would be good too for your casters.
Just some basic ideas. A bigtime healer would be a nice addition as well.....maybe another Bardic War Weaver focused on healing.
Edit: Human Paragon 1/Martial Focused Transmuter 2/Lion Totem Barb 1/Human Paragon +2/Dread Commando 5 (Just for the team initiative bonus really...you could do whatever you want as long as you get Dread Commando 5 in there....I just wanted him to have pounce and wraithstrike...could go Dual Wield or something) with his team initiative plus someone putting Nerveskitter through the Weave, and a bunch of the characters nabbing Improved Initiative via the Heroics spell, these guys could be lethal in the first round
i like this idea.... but would adjust like this:
Buffer: Focused Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Paragonostic Apostle 2
Sniper: Rogue 1/Sorceror 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Tank: Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (Illumian w/aeshkrau)
Summoner: Focused Conjurer 7 /Malconvoker 5
CR 12: Elder Air Elemental(CR 11), + Pixie Warlock 6(CR 10)
Tag-Team Hit and Run specialists ...... use Ambush +Hit and Run tactics to wear down PCs... never stand and Fight unless with the rest of the BBEGs
CR 12: Dread Wraith(CR 11) + 2x Hellwasp Swarm(CR 8) ..... irritating tactics.... Incorporeal Touch Attacks(2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain) and Swarms are fun vs Melee types
CR 12: 6 x Huge Elemental various types(2x Air, 2x Fire, 2x Earth)
:D
Hell, it worked for the Ginyu Force...
i like this idea.... but would adjust like this:
Buffer: Focused Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Paragonostic Apostle 2
Sniper: Rogue 1/Sorceror 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Tank: Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (Illumian w/aeshkrau)
Summoner: Focused Conjurer 7 /Malconvoker 5
+1 on the idea. I can't offer specific advice on most of the builds, but here's my two cents for a couple:
I'd build the summoner as follows:
Focused Conjurer 3(Rapid Summoning Variant)/Master Specalist 2/Malconvoker 5/Master Specalist +X
Battlefield Control 1: Focused Conjurer/full casting something (Abjrupt Jaunt and such and lay down some nasty battlefield spells, the war weaver's buffs should be able to give your guys what they need to get through the stuff on the battlefield)
With a party literally filled w/casters, maybe the Battlefield controller could go Incantrix..... dropping 4 schools is a tough break but who needs versatility when the rest of your party is full of casters?
Also perhaps a IOSFV for the second BC....... that would be serious ownage against this party.
Buffer: Focused Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Paragonostic Apostle 2
Sniper: Rogue 1/Sorceror 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Tank: Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (Illumian w/aeshkrau)
Summoner: Focused Conjurer 7 /Malconvoker 5
Throw in a human Divinity seeker. (as frankly *NOT* having one of these show up would be somewhat ~disapointing~) and i'm already about 90% of the way to having an evilgasm.....
wow. you go away from the keyboard for a few hours, and look at the response. i like the idea of them all being Legion Devils,
Buffer: Focused Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Paragonostic Apostle 2
Sniper: Rogue 1/Sorceror 6/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Tank: Duskblade 3/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5 (Illumian w/aeshkrau)
Summoner: Focused Conjurer 7 /Malconvoker 5
Throw in a human Divinity seeker. (as frankly *NOT* having one of these show up would be somewhat ~disapointing~) and i'm already about 90% of the way to having an evilgasm.....
Replace the bold with this:
Sniper: Rogue 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen seer 7 (hunter's eye)
Tank: Lockdown 3.0 at level 12. Just use a +1 CL item or spell (such as create magic tattoo from SC) to get 7 ML for two size categories from expansion.
Replace the bold with this:
Sniper: Rogue 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen seer 7 (hunter's eye)
Please don't. Archer's build will deal better damage and probably be a better skill monkey, but for a combat encounter with a high level party, the rule is that casters should be doing better than dealing damage. The Spellwarp Sniper class is honestly really only viable because of the spells Wings of Flurry and Frost Breath. Use them. Abuse them. Take the biggest fightery guy from the other party, and lock him down all battle WHILE dealing some damage.
If you absolutely want Hunter's Eye:
Rogue 1/Sorceror 4/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (Able Learner to make the skills less painful)
Edit: Also, if this is one encounter, or even a series of encounters split up over days or months you really don't need to go Focused Transmuter for the Buffer. I would actually use:
Elven Generalist Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Paragnostic Apostle 2
Take the Hummingbird familiar and double its bonus to initiative, this, along with Nerveskitter and some Dex, maybe even improved initiative, should basically ensure you go soon enough to drop the Quiescent Weave, and that could be gamesetmatch right there. Also, the last couple levels could be anything, I just shoved Paragnostic Apostle on there cause I like it, there may be better full casting classes for 2 levels.
Please don't. Archer's build will deal better damage and probably be a better skill monkey, but for a combat encounter with a high level party, the rule is that casters should be doing better than dealing damage. The Spellwarp Sniper class is honestly really only viable because of the spells Wings of Flurry and Frost Breath. Use them. Abuse them. Take the biggest fightery guy from the other party, and lock him down all battle WHILE dealing some damage.
If you absolutely want Hunter's Eye:
Rogue 1/Sorceror 4/Unseen Seer 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5 (Able Learner to make the skills less painful)
Except that spellwarped sniper turns AoEs into single target. That party has lots of low reflex saves so multiple target is flat out better. Spellwarp sniper is bad because it makes you worse. If you're going to attack a single person you should be metamagicking scorching ray (empowered scorching ray is 18d6 versus 11d6 wings). I don't give a crap about wings of flurry. You have better action denial than using it on one person and better damage for the spell slot at this level than it. Spellwarped sniper blows.
@OP: Spellwarped sniper is a trap UNLESS you're using it with a reflex save or die that happens to deal damage and the target has a crap touch AC, but high reflex save. For the record I don't know of any fifth level or lower reflex save or dies.
I like to basically ensure I can cost someone their turn, instead of leaving it up to saves, which may or may not go as planned. You are, in general, right about the fact that usually low touch AC means low reflex, so the desirability of SS is greatly reduced. I think for this situation SS is warranted, but, either way the battle shouldn't be very hard.
I would rather split ray a spell that is almost auto-hit and completely lock down two members of the opposing team, or even just focus on one guy with a force spell (instead of commonly resisted fire). But I guess it's up to whoever is going to play him.
I like to basically ensure I can cost someone their turn, instead of leaving it up to saves, which may or may not go as planned. You are, in general, right about the fact that usually low touch AC means low reflex, so the desirability of SS is greatly reduced. I think for this situation SS is warranted, but, either way the battle shouldn't be very hard.
You should be able to get at least 3 PCs with a single flurry. If even one fails the save then you're winning the action economy. Assuming they all have moderately good reflex saves (they won't) for 50% chance to save the odds are 12% all three save. Split ray still has to deal with touch AC. Straight up WoF is more economic in almost all cases. This isn't an exception. Remember, the cost isn't just ray vs AoE, but also the levels lost in other PrCs for the ability.
@OP: Use unseen seer for bonus damage. If you happen to want WoF for lockdown instead of evard's or ray of dizziness or slow (it is fairly good for what it is) just switch wizard with sorcerer and get some WoF (and grab wings of cover as well).
Wings of flurry is a good spell. Spellwarped sniper is a bad PrC.
I don't think he wants to kill the players... Let's try to keep that in mind.
*points at archer's first post in thread which does next to no offensive stuff but counters most of the party's offense*
Warforged Wizard/ Effigy Master/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil?, has 2-3 powerful construct minions and made some modifications to himself (Maug grafts from FF?), directs his minions and dispels/counterspells while flying with protection spells/veils.
Focused Specialist Conjurer/ Master Specialist/ Mindbender 1/ Thaumaturgist, using Arcane Disciple for the Lust domain to qualify for the last two. Likes to use Freezing Fog and cold effects, probably give him Beckon the Frozen and other feats/tricks from Frostburn such as Snowsight + Obscuring Snow. Mindsight + Maze = Int will never be a dump stat again. Staff of the Iceberg low on charges FTW. I have no idea what Planar Cohort to give an evil Thaumaturgist, maybe a Ghaele anyway with the Corrupt Creature template (BoVD).
Water Gnome (Dragonborn?) Druid, Companion Spellbond, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, Quicken Spell?. Fleshraker companion, cast Venomfire, Venomous Volley (both via DMG spell research rules if necessary), etc. with other typical Druidzilla tricks.
Maybe an Archivist Batman/God, some sort of support caster/debuffer with lots of enchantments would be nice.
Pixie Warlock/ Hellfire Warlock, Fiendish Heritage, Ability Focus: Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Chain + Noxious Blast spam every round. A Scroll of Nondetection means See Invis/True Seeing must roll a caster level check to work on him, make the scroll at the highest caster level he can UMD.
Flying single-classed Fighter Archer, Spell Storing Arrows with Shivering Touch may be too much so give him some glaring weaknesses.
Half-Fiend (Pyro/Cryo?) Hydra, Large and In Charge, Snatch, Improved Snatch, Multisnatch, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, and some decent heavy fortification armor/barding. Spring Attack/Bounding Assault would get all its bites on each attack. Whirlwind Attack would let it make all his bites against everyone in reach. Robilar's Gambit gives it a 12-bite AoO every time it's attacked. Pick a feat theme because it probably won't have enough, and/or throw on some Fighter levels.
Any melee lockdown build, but make it undead and with as many fear effects as you can get. Maybe give him an advanced Ghostly Visage for the paralyzing gaze.
The Fellowship
Constructed out of a vile desire and powered by the fuel of hate, these mechanical robots of doom and destruction are reserved as the finest hunters should there be a force needing to vanish.
1: Warforged Earth focused Shugenja 12; 1 controls the field by warping into a desirable war zone for his comrades to do their bidding in.
2: Warforged Fangshield Ranger 4/ Warforged-Fighter 1/ Soul Eater 7; 2 is all about bringing foes down as quick as possible with negative levels.
3: Warforged Dragonfire Adept: 3 also contributed to battlefield control while laying down napalm to foes.
4: Warforged Wu Jen 9/Master of the Unseen Hand 4; 4 handles any body causing trouble by sending them on a free flight home.
5: Warforged Artificer 13; 5 constructs his effigy creations and lets them loose onto those who would better themselves against his heart of steel.
6: Warforged Illusionist; 6 lives in the shadows and loves to see his world grow.
7: Warforged Druid/Landforged Walker; 7 manipulates the world around him for battlefield control and summoning.
8: Warforged Cleric 2/Hexblade 1/Master of Shroads 10; 8 knows nothing of decay but can't wait to show an enemy what it means to be scarred.
9: Warforged Cleric 13; 9 is the ringleader and calls upon all the wicked forces within the universe to assist him.
Essentially what you have are 9 Megaman bosses: Earth, Soul, Dragon, Force, Mechanical, Shadow, Plant, Death, & Evil. If they all work together in bogging down the players and surrounding them with several different attacks, they should be a sufficient challenge.
Thoughts?
NateNate seems to have hit nail squarely on the head. i can *totaly* see that lot making the characters lives "intersting", in the chinese sense.
The way i see this building is that at first, it's a single Divinity seeker, accompanied by the now campaign standard set of RedShirts(tm).
this will be a bit of a non-event. Frankly we've run into them often enough, they're starting to become part of the scenery.
Stage 2, (after the set up for the adventure i've got planned, and probably at the most inconvinient time possible) is for the single divinity seeker to turn up again. this time s/he's undead, ****** off, and is probably going ot offer the party some form of deal. IE, give me a HOOGE bribe, and i'll leave you all alone. i expect that there's going to be one heck of an argument at this. at least half the party wil actualy contemplate just bribing him/her/it, and the other half will just want to kill it off again.
Whilst the argument is going on, (and it will) "adventure specific item #1" will go missing.
stage 3, Sometime *after* they find out that the item is missing, and sometime before it's needed, the pc's are going to find out where the DS is staying, and "pay it a little visit". Probably going to be the compulsory "sneak-em-up" stage, OR a mini-dungeon. This is where there's going to be some foreshadowing. Ie, one room done out for a VERY VERY small winged character. some Very small, but Very powerful blast marks (Pixie Warlock). a HUGE forge, and a massive pile of Warforged "spares". (also, as an upside, this would be a good place to try out those undead warforged. ...)
now the bit that i'll have to go away and research. What DOES the lair of a half-feind (horrid?) Cryo-hydra look like?
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NateNate: Please accept this virtual slice of Lemon Meringue Pie. Fresh from oven.
Surreal: one steaming Hot Cup of Jamacan Blue mountain.
darksamuari: nice idea, however the pack of 6 Gnome Monks with Swarm Fighting sort of took your thunder there. Seriously. Still gets flashbacks to that one. :-)