Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RogerWilco Jul 03, 2013 8:29:55	I've been trying to make and play several characters focussed on spy-ish skills. I've tried a Bard and a Master of Many Forms but my charop-fu is limited. I'd like some suggestions and ideas. The focus of the character should be on disguise, bluff, move silently, hide and such. I would like to be able to stay in disguise all day long and I'd like disguises to not just be "another humanoid up to 10% taller or shorter than you" but also include giants, dragons, etc. Things like detecting secret passages, reading and speaking many/unknown languages, hiding alignment and other things that might be handy for a spy/sneak type character are a bonus. I'm looking for level 15+ although it's nice if it works from low level. Race can be part of the picture, even if it's LA+1 or so. (I've been thinking about Changeling). My big problem is True Vision, See Invis and things with high spot checks and/or sense motive, especially on Angels and Demons and similar monsters. I know about the Cloak of Khyber spell or what's it's called. If anyone has any suggestions?
#2 draco1119 Jul 03, 2013 9:17:41	Unseen Seer and Cabinet Trickster are the first things that come to mind.
#3 StevenO Jul 03, 2013 9:44:10	In DnD your "ultimate spy" is going to need to break into spellcasting at some point.  Besides the two PrCs draco mentions I also think about Beguiler but there are a number of was to go depending on what your willing to accept. On a related note I seem to recall a big thread a little while ago asking about ways to defeat True Seeing.  Was that also you asking there because nothing stated in that thread has changed.
#4 Slagger_the_Chuul Jul 03, 2013 10:41:30	The ability to do everything needed for a particular role suggests the Chameleon prestige class, or the Factotum. Nondetection offers one of the most likely resistances to true seeing, making it at least require a caster level check to detect the creature or object.  Preferrably cast by yourself, instead of an item, since the DC to see through the protection is based on your caster level.
#5 Andarious-Rosethorn Jul 03, 2013 11:04:58	A Bard with Knack and Elf Dilitante does really well for this (IMO) you can fight, even unarmed you'll be pretty dangerous thanks to IC. I also reccomend taking Knowledge Devotion, and loading on Knowledge skills. Two weapon fighting won't go amis to take advantage of all the damage bonus's. You can use every skill ever printed, you can know stuff about everybody for starters. The spellcasting thing's already a go, including some absolutely fantastic spy support (amd Improvisation whihc makes your skillmonkey stuff even better). Another nice trick with bard is Eternal Wands of arcane spells not on the bard list, without any UMD check you can use any arcane spell of level 4 or lower you'd want to. I like a Wand of Heroics for being yet more of a superspy that can do just about anything (it's similar to the chameleon floating feat).
#6 taradusis Jul 03, 2013 21:32:09	Perhaps a Druid/Monk gestalt . Druid for shape shifting and Monk for stealh abilities?
#7 RogerWilco Jul 04, 2013 9:24:16	In DnD your "ultimate spy" is going to need to break into spellcasting at some point.  Besides the two PrCs draco mentions I also think about Beguiler but there are a number of was to go depending on what your willing to accept. I'm open to any suggestions. On a related note I seem to recall a big thread a little while ago asking about ways to defeat True Seeing.  Was that also you asking there because nothing stated in that thread has changed.  I think that was me as well, I've been struggling to build a character that works. I think that thread was more specific though, based on my last character attempt and focussed on the Disguise skill. I made this post in the the hope that someone had a more out-of-the-box answer than the things I've been trying. Maybe there are ways to accomplish the kind of character I'm looking for without using Disguise for example. My grasp of the 3.5 material just isn't good enough to make the odd connections. The reason I went from Bard to Master of Many Forms is because of the durations. Alter Self and Polymorph have much shorter durations than Wildshape. But then the MoMF struggles because it doesn't have any real spellcasting so things like nondetection and such are out. I will read up on all the suggestions in this thread, most don't mean anything to me right now. A general suggestion of "Wizard" isn't helping me much though. I don't see how I can achieve this with Wizard. If I think Wizard I think Polymorph, which only has 1min/level duration, and he also doesn't seem to have anywhere near the right class skills. I like the more specific advice of A-R, I don't know what he means, but that's stuff I can look up. I have looked at the Chameleon, but I can't figure out wht I'd need to add to it, or how to use it to accomplish what I want. It mostly seems to be able to mimic classes (which is nice), but not races or shapes. It's also limited to Humans and has a very short class skill list. It's also the limited choices you get per day, you can be somewhat of an arcane caster, or a sneak, not both. But maybe I just don't see the potential of the class, so please elaborate if I'm missing the point. I'm at the point where I don't know how to build such a character using D&D 3.5, that's why I posted here. I might just be barking up the wrong tree and need to look at something completely different.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Jul 04, 2013 10:00:11	...why do you need more than a few minutes disguised as something exotic? And why things like dragons when most spycraft takes place in humanoid settings? Finally, why do you need combat capable shapechanging (ie polymorph) if the goal is deception? This reads like overengineering.
#9 draco1119 Jul 04, 2013 14:29:56	What about RT's Face First? It looks to be a pretty effective spy. You can find it in Tempest's siggy.
#10 RogerWilco Jul 04, 2013 17:15:31	A general suggestion of "Wizard" isn't helping me much though. I don't see how I can achieve this with Wizard. If I think Wizard I think Polymorph, which only has 1min/level duration, and he also doesn't seem to have anywhere near the right class skills. I like the more specific advice of A-R, I don't know what he means, but that's stuff I can look up. First off, let's pretend, just for a moment, that durations aren't hilariously easy to extend, just for a moment. Polymorph isn't what you're gonna use. Mundane disguises is what you need to deal with True Seeing, and for what's not, low-level illusions are generally easier. Now, let's further pretend that skills actually matter when you can cast spells, even though that's pretty hard to wrap one's mind around. That's fine. A Changeling Illusionist gets Hide, Bluff, Diguise, and Slight of Hand as skills and 4 skill points a leve. Or you pick up Weildskill and get a want of Guidance of the Avatar, if you feel cheesy you could skeez your way into an Eternal Wand, too, or you could just stick with a Lesser Schema. There, you've totally invalidated the entire skill system with completely generic spells, and that's excluding more focused spells on your particular skill check. I know I said I was pretending they mattered, but I really couldn't keep it up, sorry. I have looked at the Chameleon, but I can't figure out wht I'd need to add to it, or how to use it to accomplish what I want. It mostly seems to be able to mimic classes (which is nice), but not races or shapes. It's also limited to Humans and has a very short class skill list. It's also the limited choices you get per day, you can be somewhat of an arcane caster, or a sneak, not both. But maybe I just don't see the potential of the class, so please elaborate if I'm missing the point. First off, yes you can get more than one feature. The real awesome parts, though, are the floating feat and spells from any list. It's pretty legit, gettng spells from half-casters that get high-level spells early, like Disciple of Thrym, or whatever it's called from It's Cold Outside. This is much more specific than "use Wizard". You do speek in riddles somewhat. I assume "It's Cold Outside" means Frostburn. I'll try to decipher the other things you seem to say, but I don't believe you're being very specific, for example, I still have no clue how the Chameleon would help me accomplish my goal better compared to a Bard or Wizard for example. As I said, my char-op fu is not very good. Please enlighten me how to extend durations. And my other tread already touched on the very limited options there are for mundane disguises, unless someone has a great idea, I've basically given up on that route. ...why do you need more than a few minutes disguised as something exotic? And why things like dragons when most spycraft takes place in humanoid settings? Finally, why do you need combat capable shapechanging (ie polymorph) if the goal is deception? This reads like overengineering. The Polymorph isn't for the combat potential, but to get shapes and species beyond Humanoid, although it might be a useful bonus. I'd like it if I could maintain disguises for 24 hours, but for non-humanoid shapes a few hours is probably enough as well. I can come up with a lot of scenarios where a few minutes will not be enough. Say I'm trying to win the trust of some Cloud Giants, pretend to be a long lost relative, sit through a banquet in my honour and armwrestle a few of them, etc. What about RT's Face First? It looks to be a pretty effective spy. You can find it in Tempest's siggy. I will look at that.
#11 RogerWilco Jul 05, 2013 9:56:33	This is much more specific than "use Wizard". You do speek in riddles somewhat. I assume "It's Cold Outside" means Frostburn That is correct. I'll try to decipher the other things you seem to say, but I don't believe you're being very specific, for example, I still have no clue how the Chameleon would help me accomplish my goal better compared to a Bard or Wizard for example. Chameleons have great access t oskills and can have most spells in the game. Remember, they don't care about the wizard or cleric list, it's just arcane or divine. That gives you a lot of sweet spells that other people don't get, and you can get them early. I see that it can be used to access spells early, but I don't see how that helps my specific case. If I look at a Chameleon10 with Arcane and Stealth focus I don't see what advantages it would have over for example an Arcane Trickster10 for the specific problem I'm trying to solve. As I said, my char-op fu is not very good. Please enlighten me how to extend durations. My favorite method is Incantatrix, but you can do a lot with Residual Metamagic and any reducers or bypassers, such as Anima Mage. General reducers like Easy/Practical Metamagic or Arcane Thesis are also pretty awesome.  But you're not going to be able to combine that with Chameleon unless you'd have some Incantatrix/Chameleon Gestalt, but when you have Gestalt available I think there are better options. And my other tread already touched on the very limited options there are for mundane disguises, unless someone has a great idea, I've basically given up on that route. Why? The size limit is both laughable and easy to get around, especially if you're a Changeling, even without magic. I know about that table. What my other thread about disguise learned me, is that there are very few ways to boost (mundane) disguise, and even the magical ways to do so are limited. At level 15 Spot will often be in the +25-30 ranges so to reliably disguise, you need a disguise of about 45-50, with Disguise Self and Polymorph/Alter Self I can easily get 50+, mundane only it's a struggle, and with a penalty like -50 it would be hard to have a positive result. If you can show me how to get Disguise in the 100+ range at level 15, only then do I accept your premisse. The Polymorph isn't for the combat potential, but to get shapes and species beyond Humanoid, although it might be a useful bonus. I'd like it if I could maintain disguises for 24 hours, but for non-humanoid shapes a few hours is probably enough as well. I can come up with a lot of scenarios where a few minutes will not be enough. Say I'm trying to win the trust of some Cloud Giants, pretend to be a long lost relative, sit through a banquet in my honour and armwrestle a few of them, etc. Persistomancy is your friend, but really, it's not going to be needed as much. Also, you're a wizard, if you can't Charm or Programmed Image your way out of the room to "freshen up," you aren't really trying. It seems the answer really is to go full arcane caster, even for a rogueish character. Is that what you're trying to say?
#12 Andarious-Rosethorn Jul 05, 2013 10:48:53	Unseen Seer's way better than Arcane Trixter for what you want, both in mechanics and in general spy theme. Something like Chamelion Rogue 1 with Able Learner Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 would be a very nice start for a Spy. You'd have Int as your primary stat, a ton of SKills on your list, almost full casting and some neat off list spell access (Hunter's Eye, yum). That said there's a few neat things about Chamelion you should consider, when casting spells. Your DM may allow an arguement that since Unseen Seer exists for example you can cast ANY Divination spell that is low enough level on any list if you choose Arcane focus. Similarly there is a class feature in Complete Mage that would allow a Cleric to take virtually any Abjuration, Divination or Necromancy spell from the Sorc/Wiz list so those are all in for Arcane. In Complete Divine there's a feat that allows arcane casters to select a domain and add the spells to their list, so basically all domain spells can be called arcane. A DM's likely to call cheese on any or all of this though since technically those spells are not "On the class list" the can simply be amended to it.
#13 piggyknowles Jul 07, 2013 8:36:45	All this talk and no mention of Vecna-blooded from MMV? It's a +1 template that, among other things, gives you a blanket immunity to divinations that can't even be pierced by divine intervention (unless the deity is Vecna). If you really want to, there are a number of circumstances where you can LOSE a god blooded template, too. You retain some aspects of it, though. In the case of Vecna-blooded, you can lose the template and still retain the immunity to divinations, meaning you can dump your LA while still keeping the best aspect of the template. Watch out for flying books if you pull that last one. (If that's no good, just buy off the LA early). To become Vecna-blooded, you need to be capable of casting 2nd level arcane spells and have a decent intelligence (you have to answer riddles that are represented by an Int check), so the previous suggestions still apply.
#14 taradusis Jul 08, 2013 2:29:08	How about the the Spymaster kit from Complete Adventurer? Allows you to maintain Cover Identities. Cover Identity gives a bonus to Disguise,Bluff and Gather Info. Covers can be maintained in your sleep and for years. A new Cover can be learned if your old Cover is blown. Is a feat ,no magic aura.
#15 Scythal Jul 08, 2013 3:06:45	18 ranks + 4 Cha + 10(Wieldskill) + 20(GotA) + 2(Masterwork tools) + 10(Taking a ten) = 64 without me trying at all, and totally without illusions or continued effects. What does GotA stands for?
#16 RogerWilco Jul 27, 2013 5:32:03	Thanks for all the good replies. sorry for not replying any more, I had real life intervene a bit. Most of the suggestions being made I've never heard of before. Wieldskill, Guidance of the Avatar, Unseen Seer, Spymaster, Vecna-blooded, etc. I will have to google those to see what they mean and where I can find them.
#17 The_Fred Jul 27, 2013 6:11:29	Some of those are a little obscure, to be fair. Wieldskill is from Magic of Faerun IIRC (a 3.0 book) and your DM may not allow you to use it if you don't follow Gond. Guidance of the Avatar is I think from a web supplement. However, if you are not playing "open sources" and your DM bans GotA, you can still use Divine Insight (Spell Compendium) which is not as good, but still pretty useful (+5 +1/2 levels... or maybe +1/level, I forget... to a max of +15, whereas GotA is +20).
#18 RogerWilco Jul 27, 2013 6:30:06	So, I've done some googling and book browsing and found the mentioned spells, PrCs and such. I think the Unseen Seer indeed has a lot of potential for the kind of thing I want: 5 levels would give me permanent nondetection (to foil True Seeing), and two Advanced Learning for Wieldskill and Guidance of the Avatar, without having to take Cleric levels. It also gives full arcane caster progression, which is nice. So 5 levels of Unseen Seer seem like a good core for a build. Now I would need to figure out how to easily enter this class, preferably without losing caster levels and getting sneak attack or skirmish from somewhere and a boat load of skill points and relevant class skills. Any suggestions? Rogue2/Wiz3 would do it, and get me Evasion, but probably there are better solutions out there. The next problem then would be how to make the Polymorph and possibly Shapechange at a later level last longer. Persistent Spell seems an obvious route to go, if I could make the spell slot level penalty lower. I have 15 levels to work with, 5 of which are spent on Unseen Seer, so Incantatrix wouldn't fit and is only once a day. Any suggestions? And then I probably need to worry about not having my attack bonus and saves be really low. I really like the suggestions, I'm now starting to see an alternative way for me to realize my goal. Please if you have ideas to further this, please reply, it's greatly appreciated, even if sometimes it might take a while for me to reply.
#19 piggyknowles Jul 27, 2013 9:48:16	So, I actually have been working on a way to get ten levels of Unseen Seer and precision damage onto a build without losing any caster levels, and this is what I've come up with: Simple Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Ruathar 3/Simple Wizard +2/Unseen Seer 10 Simple wizard is a variant from UA that gives you a fighter bonus feat in place of Scribe Scroll and metamagic/item creation feats. Master Specialist is a prestige class from Complete Mage that gives some fairly minor bonuses - its main selling point is that you can enter it after level 3. Ruathar is a 3-level prestige class from Races of the Wild that basically makes you an "elf-friend."  It is easy to enter, progresses spellcasting at all three levels, and has an excellent skill list, including every skill you need to get into Unseen Seer. Basically, it picks up sneak attack via Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).  Because Assassin's Stance is a third level stance, you can't actually take Martial Stance to nab it until your IL is 5 (which on a non-initiating build means 10 levels in other classes).  However, that ordinarily would mean waiting until your level 12 feat comes around, which means that you would not have it available in time to progress with the first level of Unseen Seer.  This build instead uses Master Specialist to delay when you take your fifth level of wizard (which grants you a bonus feat thanks to the Simple Wizard variant), so that you can take it at 10th-level and use it to nab Assassin's Stance. For another mostly full casting build with Unseen Seer, I'm also a big fan of... Wizard 5/Ruathar 1/Unseen Seer 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Unseen Seer +1 Like the above build, Ruathar is used to meet the skill requirements for Unseen Seer.  Unseen Seer is used to boost your divination CL and nab whatever crazy skill-boosting divination you want (most likely Wieldskill, Guidance of the Avatar or Divine Insight - I actually prefer the latter, since it lasts an hour per level, so you can precast it, and it gives an insight bonus instead of a competence bonus). Nar Demonbinder is from Unapproachable East, and gives you up to 8th-level spontaneous arcane spells in seven levels.  It's an interesting class.  The spell list is primarily focused on summoning and binding and the like, but what's really nice is how it feeds into Ultimate Magus.  Ultimate Magus is from Complete Mage, and progresses both spontaneous and prepared arcane casters simultaneously.  It also lets you burn spell slots from one class to power metamagic for the other.  So, for instance, you could cast Draconic Polymorph from your wizard levels, and burn a Nar Demonbinder spell to persist it. The end result is 19 levels of wizard casting (9th-level spells) and full Nar Demonbinder casting (8th-level spells), with almost uninterrupted progression and decent skills.
#20 RogerWilco Jul 27, 2013 10:04:17	I'll read up on the Martial Stance stuff, I don't fully follow you there, but then Tome of Battle is one of the few books I don't have and need to borrow. The rest I understand, thanks for posting, the Ruathar would even fit well with what I was thinking about.
#21 piggyknowles Jul 27, 2013 10:38:34	For a basic summary... Initiating classes (swordsage, warblade, crusader) get access to maneuvers, which are sort of like spells.  They require a certain initiating level to learn and use - just like you need to be a 5th-level wizard to learn a 3rd-level spell, you need to be a 5th-level swordsage to learn a 3rd-level shadow hand maneuever. Maneuvers are split into a few basic categories (boosts, counters, strikes, etc.), but the big one to know is stances, versus everything else.  A stance is a special kind of maneuver.  It takes a swift action to activate, and you can only have one stance going at a time (unless you're a Master of Nine).  Once you're in a stance... you're in that stance.  It's not like a spell with a duration.  You can remain in that stance all day long, until you decide to switch or end it.  (Some stances have conditions - some require, for instance, that you maintain constant contact with the ground - but for the most part they last as long as you want.) One such stance is Assassin's Stance, a third-level stance from the Shadow Hand discipline.  It says that, while you are in the stance, you have +2d6 sneak attack.  Period, across the board. Now, one of the coolest things about ToB is how they understand multiclassing.  Multiclassing is really, more than anything else, what sets 3.5 apart from other systems.  It has an incredibly flexible and broad system of multiclassing.  ToB feeds into this by building rules for multiclassing right into the system. So, as I mentioned, you need a certain initiator level to take various maneuvers.  Your IL is equal to your levels in any ToB classes, plus 1/2 your levels in non-initiating classes.  That last bit is pretty cool, because it means you can be a decent warblade even if you don't spend all 20 levels as one. There are also feats, Martial Study and Martial Stance, which let you pick up maneuvers and stances.  You can even take these if you don't have a single level in an initiating class, making them a nice way to add a little bit of ToB to a build - but you still must meet any pre-requisites for taking the maneuver (ie, I couldn't use it to pick up a 9th-level maneuver at level 3).  If you don't have any levels in warblade/swordsage/crusader, then you just use 1/2 your level as your initiator level. So, bringing it all together, you can net +2d6 sneak attack onto a build without it by taking Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).  This requires that you know at least one Shadow Hand maneuver and have an IL of 5.  You can pick up the requisite maneuver by taking Martial Study for anything Shadow Hand (Cloak of Deception turns you invisible as a swift action, Shadow Jaunt gives you a nonmagical dimension door effect, both are fine choices), then following it up with Martial Stance once you have IL 5 - which, again, happens at level 10 for you, since your IL = 1/2 your levels in non-initiating classes.
#22 RogerWilco Jul 27, 2013 11:02:19	I am starting to think something along the lines of Wizard4/Spellthief1/UnseenSeer5/Something5 With Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster feats. Any suggestions where to go from there and what Something5 should be? Maybe something with Incantatrix? this would require Iron Will and Extend Spell feats, and then Persistent Spell as the first bonus feat? Do I understand correctly that for Persistent Polymorph, I would need to be able to make Spellcraft Checks of 48 (18 + 3x10) as Incantatrix 3? So that would make the build Wizard4/Spellthief1/UnseenSeer5/Incantatrix3/Something2 I had found Spelldancer, but the feat requirements are very steep. Is there a way to make the Wieldskill and Guidance of the Avatar spells at will or something like that? Would specialisation help on this character, maybe as Diviner? Edit: thanks piggyknowless for the explanation. I wish that they had done that multiclassing trick more in 3E.
#23 piggyknowles Jul 31, 2013 17:45:53	I put this build together for someone else over on the GitP forums, but it occurs to me that it applies here... Half-elf, Bard 7/Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal 3/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8 Take the Soothing Voice ACF from Races of Destiny, which lets you calm emotions with a diplomacy check.  Vigilant Sentinel gives you the ability to read minds with no save using a Sense Motive check, and also gives you some sneak attack to advance with Unseen Seer, gives you permanent nondetection, and boosts your disguise checks.  Unseen Seer is obvious, and Sublime Chord gives you 9th-level spells. Nothing too fancy, just a straightforward build focusing on infiltration, spying and the like.
#24 RogerWilco Aug 01, 2013 4:42:37	I put this build together for someone else over on the GitP forums, but it occurs to me that it applies here... Half-elf, Bard 7/Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal 3/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8 Take the Soothing Voice ACF from Races of Destiny, which lets you calm emotions with a diplomacy check.  Vigilant Sentinel gives you the ability to read minds with no save using a Sense Motive check, and also gives you some sneak attack to advance with Unseen Seer, gives you permanent nondetection, and boosts your disguise checks.  Unseen Seer is obvious, and Sublime Chord gives you 9th-level spells. Nothing too fancy, just a straightforward build focusing on infiltration, spying and the like. Thank you for the advice. The Vigilant Sentinel of Aerenal looks interesting, I don't have a lot of the Eberron books but I found it elsewhere. It doesn't advance spellcasting though. Why two levels of Sublime Chord, is the Song of Arcane Power so useful? Are you using this for a lot of long term buffs or something like that? I tried Bard before, I might look at it again. Your build gets into Unseen Seer very late though, for what I'm looking for. But it does give some interesting ideas, I'll to see if some of that can be useful to me.