Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 arcana_zero May 31, 2009 23:30:29	A player in my new game is interested in playing a bard, and although i have a lot of experiance, i have almost none with bards. Is it possible for Bards to be highly effective? The material we're using is the entire complete series, the spell compendium, all environment books, and the PHB2. Im not looking for multiclassing advance, as my player wants to have no more than 1 PrC if that. I'm essentially looking for advice for feats and tactics to recomend to my player. Thanks.
#2 dandu May 31, 2009 23:44:00	Bard Inspire Courage Optimization Your character may look something like this by the end of it, but with Dragonfire Inspiration instead of regular attack/damage bonus http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445
#3 blightersbane May 31, 2009 23:56:06	hey hows the psionic power control sound vs. the bard? Blightersbane
#4 Senevri May 31, 2009 23:57:20	Core bards struggle, but can manage, especially as a fifth wheel. Expanded library bards are made of awesome and win. From Spell Compendium: Improvisation is awesome. Arcane Thesis awesome. Extend, repeat, twin etc it. Inspirational Boost is okay, especially early on. Complete Mage's Lyric Thaumaturge is actually pretty good, thanks to it's 5th-level ability and it's access to Sor/Wiz list. You want Dolorous Blow(SpC), don't you? Be sure to check with your DM how 5th level ability is interpreted when it comes to spells with duration longer than instantaneous. Can get pretty obscene, if it applies for the duration, with, say, Sonic Weapon. Healing Hymn from Complete Champion is very very good. You can easily get your Perform Check really high (say, at level 10, 13 ranks + 5-6 improvisation + cha), and with Melodic Casting, you can cast, say, a Cure Light Wounds, which will heal an equivalent of 10d6 HP or so, then. With War Weaver levels, it applies to EVERYone in the party, too. It's a shame you don't have access to the Heroes books. War Weaver + 4 levels of Fiendblooded = delay death + beastland ferocity for everyone. Typical 11th level choice is to pick two levels of Sublime Chord(CArc) and then progress it with a more-or-less full casting PrC. You can, in fact, even create a fully-competent Bard meleer or a Bard Mailman, but bard is at it's best as a buffer. hey hows the psionic power control sound vs. the bard? It's NOT. It does nothing. Silence, however, can shut down a bard quite nicely.
#5 dandu Jun 01, 2009 0:00:20	Battle Blessing from Complete Champion is very very good. You can easily get your Perform Check really high (say, at level 10, 13 ranks + 5-6 improvisation + cha), and with Melodic Casting, you can cast, say, a Cure Light Wounds, which will heal an equivalent of 10d6 HP or so, then. Doesn't that only work with Paladin spells?
#6 Senevri Jun 01, 2009 0:02:26	Doesn't that only work with Paladin spells? I meant Healing Hymn. Fixed.
#7 terronus Jun 01, 2009 12:17:32	Bard Inspire Courage Optimization Your character may look something like this by the end of it, but with Dragonfire Inspiration instead of regular attack/damage bonus http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445 I always like to take two levels of seeker of the song. While I'm not usually allowed words of creation, you can sing both versions of inspire courage at once (Dragonfire Inspiration doesn't say you have to use the energy).
#8 arcana_zero Jun 01, 2009 23:03:25	Core bards struggle, but can manage, especially as a fifth wheel. Expanded library bards are made of awesome and win. From Spell Compendium: Improvisation is awesome. Arcane Thesis awesome. Extend, repeat, twin etc it. Inspirational Boost is okay, especially early on. Complete Mage's Lyric Thaumaturge is actually pretty good, thanks to it's 5th-level ability and it's access to Sor/Wiz list. You want Dolorous Blow(SpC), don't you? Be sure to check with your DM how 5th level ability is interpreted when it comes to spells with duration longer than instantaneous. Can get pretty obscene, if it applies for the duration, with, say, Sonic Weapon. Healing Hymn from Complete Champion is very very good. You can easily get your Perform Check really high (say, at level 10, 13 ranks + 5-6 improvisation + cha), and with Melodic Casting, you can cast, say, a Cure Light Wounds, which will heal an equivalent of 10d6 HP or so, then. With War Weaver levels, it applies to EVERYone in the party, too. It's a shame you don't have access to the Heroes books. War Weaver + 4 levels of Fiendblooded = delay death + beastland ferocity for everyone. Typical 11th level choice is to pick two levels of Sublime Chord(CArc) and then progress it with a more-or-less full casting PrC. You can, in fact, even create a fully-competent Bard meleer or a Bard Mailman, but bard is at it's best as a buffer. It's NOT. It does nothing. Silence, however, can shut down a bard quite nicely. So how about a level and feat breakdown with suggested major spells. FYI, i AM the DM, im doing research for one of my players. I wanted them to be able to play what they wanted and feel cool, but also make sure i could nudge them into effectivness.
#9 Dictum_Mortuum Jun 02, 2009 2:49:25	So how about a level and feat breakdown with suggested major spells. FYI, i AM the DM, im doing research for one of my players. I wanted them to be able to play what they wanted and feel cool, but also make sure i could nudge them into effectivness. In the last adventure i played a straight bard with a familiar. The other players where pretty optimized, dealing loads of damage, but i was probably the MVP :p It worked like this: Inspire courage optimization: This is important. If you think of it the bard is actually dealing damage, more than the inspire courage amount per hit. That's because the bonus to hit will actually help some players deliver their blows. I'm only saying this because the bard is sometimes viewed as worthless from the other party members. Healing Hymn: Be aware that if you select this you won't be able to use the powers of suggestion and mass suggestion, too. That's because it replaces fascinate. However i picked this, thinking of either using the eberron campaign setting's replacement ability (swap some of your songs for a feat from a list) or half-elven bard's (i was a deepwyrm half-drow, by far the most powerful half-elven race) 6th level substitution level. I also took cure light wounds and some circlets of mages (MIC) - maybe i should have taken memento magica instead. Now, it gives you a +perform ranks to your heal check (not +perform check as it was mentioned earlier), but it did the job pretty good. Imp Familiar: I have a deep love for familiars. With UMD and some eternal wands, it could make little wonders, like benign transpositioning dying allies with the team's low mobility - tanky psychic warrior, stabilize people with a healing belt, stealing an important map with invisibility on and glove of storing. It also saved me from an iron maiden trap, using benign transposition and then just flew out of there.
#10 dr_rocktopus Jun 02, 2009 3:09:37	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18656513&postcount=93 You may need to adjust this, but it's a basically mindwrecking build. Simple version goes: Bard, early entry at 4th -> War Weaver 5-> Bard 1 ->Sublime chord 10 But this is far far far less powerful. Which is to say that it glues together two of the most powerful prestige classes in the game, and throws in some generally inaccessible bardic buffs to boot. You know, just to screw with you. It's also compatible with the healing hymn tech laid out above, letting you do fun and strange things on the cheap.
#11 Senevri Jun 02, 2009 5:34:07	Yeah, that build is good - and not setting specific 'til lv 16. Silverymoon and War Weaver are both out, though, according to original book limitations. However, you can in fact, replace those with several different class choices. Sacred Exorcist, Abjurant Champion, Divine Oracle... even just plain ol' Bard 'til you get SubChord, after which you need a prc or two. I don't recall my Complete PrCs well enough to recommend a prestige right now, sorry.
#12 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 02, 2009 6:55:51	With a Bard there are 2 very good prestige classes that take your Bard in two different directions based on your preference. For a martial character who is willing to give up spellcasting - go into Dread Pirate. It will give full BAB, some nice abilities, and improve your inspire courage (at an accelerated rate). For a focus on spellcasting, Sublime Chord gets your Bard those much desired 9th level spells by level 19.
#13 dandu Jun 02, 2009 7:16:50	For a martial character who is willing to give up spellcasting - go into Dread Pirate. It will give full BAB, some nice abilities, and improve your inspire courage (at an accelerated rate). Dread Pirate full BAB combat Dread Pirate Inspire Courage
#14 dbay Jun 02, 2009 17:43:02	ah, Bards. Easily my favourite class. The trick to bards is that, though they are highly versatile, they arent good enough at any one thing to take that role by themselves, so they work great paired up with other members. Take the Bardic Knack alternate class feature for the win. It gives you half your level in ranks to every skill. Combine this with Improvisation from the SC, and you have ranks in every single skill equal to your level. Want to build a catapult and use it, too? go ahead! Want to use your downtime to weave baskets? go for it! The spell Master's Touch makes you proficient with any weapon, which is really handy sometimes. Obtain Familiar is a great feat, too- the Bard will get a far superior familiar to that of any wizard. The Sublime Chord PrC is really good too, if you don't mind the reduced BAB. The feat Melodic Casting from complete mage is absolutely necessary for any bard. It replaces concentration with perform and lets you cast spells while using bardic music If you play your cards right, you can fill any party role almost as good as a dedicated character would. You can heal, fight, cast arcane (especially with sublime chord), wear armour, use any weapon, get a familiar, buff, sneak lie, whatever. Haven't found a way to get sneak attack or trapfinding yet, though.
#15 xakypshalorn Jun 02, 2009 18:44:54	Haven't found a way to get sneak attack or trapfinding yet, though. Let's see... Bard X (minimum 4) Rogue 1 Unseen Seer X Grants 1d6 natural sneak attack, plus up to 3 more from unseen seer, nearly full bardic spell progression, bonuses to caster level of divinations (Oh, and lookie here, the caster level losses Unseen Seer acrues are only 3, add one for Rogue, and Practiced Spellcaster fully repairs your casterlevel, leaving you still having the +3 Divination) Additionally you can pick up a few free divination spells known from any list, which can be a huge boon to any caster, of course, but especially the bard. Of coursed, mixed into that build you can toss sublime chord if you so choose, you should have plenty of time to complete unseen seer after however many sublime chord levels you choose to take. (I'd probably recommend 2 if you did.)
#16 Dictum_Mortuum Jun 03, 2009 4:24:47	The problem is that you are losing on inspire courage that way Xakypshalorn.
#17 xakypshalorn Jun 03, 2009 10:13:54	You don't necessarily have to lose much of it. The typical dip into unseen seer is 3 levels, Chaos Music will make that and the rogue level back up. Edit: Of course I do agree, sneak attack is the suboptimal way to go for a bard. Your better off going Dragonfire Inspiration, maxing inspire courage benefits, and giving the whole party at least as many extra d6's of damage as a rogue would be getting on their own, if not several more. I was just responding to the guy's comment lol.
#18 cragghunter Jun 03, 2009 10:31:27	Let's see... Bard X (minimum 4) Spellthief 1 Unseen Seer X Grants 1d6 natural sneak attack, plus up to 3 more from unseen seer, nearly full bardic spell progression, bonuses to caster level of divinations (Oh, and lookie here, the caster level losses Unseen Seer acrues are only 3, add one for Spellthief, and Master spellthief fully fixes your caster level , leaving you still having the +3 Divination) Additionally you can pick up a few free divination spells known from any list, which can be a huge boon to any caster, of course, but especially the bard. Of coursed, mixed into that build you can toss sublime chord if you so choose, you should have plenty of time to complete unseen seer after however many sublime chord levels you choose to take. (I'd probably recommend 2 if you did.) Fixed that for you.;)