Current stats:
Str:8
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:10
Cha:16
Current Feats: Weapon Finesse, Shield Specialization (Buckler), Melodic Casting
Current Equipment: +2 chain shirt, MW Rapier, MW Whip-dagger, 2 MW instruments.
Our DM allows for re-training of feats and skills so those should not be much of a problem. At present I am pretty much the party band-aid since no one else took up a healing class -- but our DM allows us to swap spells upon level up, too, so I shouldn't be too worried about those I pick.
I'd prefer PrCs that advance either bard songs or spellcasting (or both, if possible), with a little more emphasis on attack power, since at present all I can do is sing all day long.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Books?
Pretty much all 3.5 books, except ToB and ToM, and avoid Eberron if you can.
chek the second post in the number two link on my sign. look for bard entries
I'll check it out, thanks.
Bard 6/Spellsinger 1/Divine Oracle 3/Seeker of the Song 2/Sublime Chord 8.
The idea behind this build is to A) get access to as many different spells known as I can, while remaining mostly a bard and B) getting good use both out of my spells AND my bardic song. I'll probably be taking Imperious Command, Haunting Melody, Metamagic Song, and Requiem. Anyone got a suggestion on a feat progression?
Bard Inspire Courage Optimization
thats all you need.
I also recommend you take Lyric Spell as soon as possible. This, in turn, makes Extra Music a decent feat choice, as Lyric Spell essentially allows you to treat (a lot of) Bardic Music uses as bonus spells.
Make sure to take Inspiriational Boost Spell as of of your level 1 spells... in fact, go take a look at the bardic music optimization thread and grab as much of that as possible. Level 6 will open up Song of the Heart and Words of Creation to you.
If you can prestige class, my favorite buildstub is bard6/Virtuoso2/Anything2/sublime chord2/virtuoso+8
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095
Bard Inspire Courage Optimization
thats all you need.
I disagree. I'd rather be able to do things for myself than for others.
I'd drop Spellsinger and Seeker of the Song for three levels of Lyric Thaumaturge: no CL lost (!!!), Captivating Melody as a bonus feat (!).
I also recommend you take Lyric Spell as soon as possible. This, in turn, makes Extra Music a decent feat choice, as Lyric Spell essentially allows you to treat (a lot of) Bardic Music uses as bonus spells.
I'm taking Spellsinger for the "Spontaneous Enchantment" and +1 to bardic music perform checks, and Seeker of the Song for the combine songs ability. But I'll look into Lyric Thaumaturge.
Lose the shield specialization... you're role is not to tank.. invest points in tumble/balance and if at all possible, DON'T GET ATTACKED in the first place. Being on the front lines with a d6 hitdie and light armor is not a good idea... you are not a fighter. besides, spending a precious feat for slightly better defense is a waste.
Make sure to take Inspiriational Boost Spell as of of your level 1 spells... in fact, go take a look at the bardic music optimization thread and grab as much of that as possible. Level 6 will open up Song of the Heart and Words of Creation to you.
If you can prestige class, my favorite buildstub is bard6/Virtuoso2/Anything2/sublime chord2/virtuoso+8
I'm only keeping the shield spec to keep my AC boosted temporarily. It's saved me plenty of times so far, but I intend to get better defensive options too. Not to mention the fact I'll need tons of feats to be able to keep up the progression.
I'm staying the HELL away from Words of Creation, though. I'm NOT friggin' Exalted. I'm CN and keeping it that way.
bard6/lyric theramagust2/vertuoso2/sublime chord2/vertuoso8
grab obtain familiar, and lingering melody, improved familiar(for fun), haunting mellody, and snowflake wardance(for when you need or feel like running into the fray)
I prefer this build
bard6/lyric theramagust2/vertuoso2/sublime chord2/vertuoso8
grab obtain familiar, and lingering melody, improved familiar(for fun), haunting mellody, and snowflake wardance(for when you need or feel like running into the fray)
I'd rather not have a familiar... I just KNOW the DM is going to find some way to screw me with it. Haunting Melody I plan on grabbing anyway, along with Imperious command, for auto-cowering fun.
Any suggestions on how to improve the build I devised (like Empirate's suggestions, for example)?
I disagree. I'd rather be able to do things for myself than for others.
Some bard you are. Why bother with having bardic music at all if you are not supporting your allies?
I'm taking Spellsinger for the "Spontaneous Enchantment" and +1 to bardic music perform checks,
The latter is in no way worth it, and the former doesn't sound worth it either.
and Seeker of the Song for the combine songs ability.
not worth caster level loss. Grab the Lingering Song feat and just swap between songs. More versatility that way, too.
I'm only keeping the shield spec to keep my AC boosted temporarily. It's saved me plenty of times so far, but I intend to get better defensive options too. Not to mention the fact I'll need tons of feats to be able to keep up the progression.
The slight AC boost is in no way worth a feat. Shield specialization is a turkey for a Caster, and IMHO is a turkey period. But if you're going to retrain it anyway, by all means keep it for now.
I'm staying the HELL away from Words of Creation, though. I'm NOT friggin' Exalted. I'm CN and keeping it that way.
Hey, we just suggest what gives you power. By all means stick with your Character idea.
If you still like the idea of using Imperious Command (which is awesome) make sure you have a reach weapon (whip?), b/c you can only use it against folks you threaten, and as my Bardadin has found out Bards can be rather squishy.
You're CN and want to stay it? You don't need Words of Creation for a good Bard build! A possibility for a nongood Bard is taking the ever-so-famous one-level-dip in Mindbender. The skill reqs are easy to meet with a Bard, and Telepathy is awfully useful if you like to use Enchantments like Suggestion or Charm Monster.
I can also come up with two more feat suggestions: Doomspeak for an exceedingly powerful debuff (only lasts one round, though), and Epic of the Lost King (sucks being exhausted!) both give you more ways to use your Bardic Music. If you take these and Lyric Spell, you're probably very well off with Extra Music, though.
For an example build, try:
Bard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 6 / Fatespinner 4
No caster level loss, great versatility regarding spell selection, but a bit focused on prereq skills before 11th level. Also, cannot be exalted, so loses access to Words of Creation for Inspire Pwnage. Instead of Sublime Chord 3-6, you can easily work in another four levels in some PrC with full arcane casting. Unseen Seer?
Or:
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 2-9
Loses only one caster level and is very versatile where Bardic Music and spell selection is concerned. Able to go the Inspire Pwnage optimization route (but you don't want that due to alignment reasons). This latter build is originally by archerpwr. I like mine better! :D
Here's another build, stolen from carnivore, that's basically a gish built on a Bardic chassis:
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8 or Knight phantom 8
Loses 3 caster levels, but makes up for it in combat prowess (BAB +17, OK HD).
Some bard you are. Why bother with having bardic music at all if you are not supporting your allies?
Because I want magic songs but I don't care about them? One of the reasons I even took up Seeker of the Song is because it has damaging songs in it.
not worth caster level loss. Grab the Lingering Song feat and just swap between songs. More versatility that way, too.
It's not like the CL loss hurts that much. Besides, if I get combine song and lingering song and use them together, there's less actions needed to get them off right there. Sometimes you might be too pressed to use one or the other, so why not use both?
The slight AC boost is in no way worth a feat. Shield specialization is a turkey for a Caster, and IMHO is a turkey period. But if you're going to retrain it anyway, by all means keep it for now.
Normally I wouldn't have bothered with it, but for the low levels, it has actually saved my hide plenty of times.
I've seen a bard with the Inspire Courage optimization...it was just silly. Keep in mind, those bonuses work on you too. That +8 attack/damage made a pretty sorry unreliable tank a complete bamf, and a bard with no combat feats a good secondary.
If you still like the idea of using Imperious Command (which is awesome) make sure you have a reach weapon (whip?), b/c you can only use it against folks you threaten, and as my Bardadin has found out Bards can be rather squishy.
Agreed. Bards are NOT tanks, which is why I'm not too keen of the Inspire Courage route. And I already use a whip. =P
The Spellsinger PrC I've looked into myself, and found it wanting. The spontaneous Enchantment looks very nice at first, until you notice the abysmally low save DC. Got me fooled at first, too. Forget it! It won't work except on 1st level Commoners. The +1/level to Bardic Music checks is only nice if you have access to a lot of effects that are keyed off your BM Perform check (like Fascinate and Suggestion, which aren't so hot). Furthermore, the Feat requirements are rather subpar, and you'll probably be feat-starved.
You're CN and want to stay it? You don't need Words of Creation for a good Bard build! A possibility for a nongood Bard is taking the ever-so-famous one-level-dip in Mindbender. The skill reqs are easy to meet with a Bard, and Telepathy is awfully useful if you like to use Enchantments like Suggestion or Charm Monster.
I can also come up with two more feat suggestions: Doomspeak for an exceedingly powerful debuff (only lasts one round, though), and Epic of the Lost King (sucks being exhausted!) both give you more ways to use your Bardic Music. If you take these and Lyric Spell, you're probably very well off with Extra Music, though.
For an example build, try:
Bard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 6 / Fatespinner 4
No caster level loss, great versatility regarding spell selection, but a bit focused on prereq skills before 11th level. Also, cannot be exalted, so loses access to Words of Creation for Inspire Pwnage. Instead of Sublime Chord 3-6, you can easily work in another four levels in some PrC with full arcane casting. Unseen Seer?
Or:
Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 2-9
Loses only one caster level and is very versatile where Bardic Music and spell selection is concerned. Able to go the Inspire Pwnage optimization route (but you don't want that due to alignment reasons). This latter build is originally by archerpwr. I like mine better!
Here's another build, stolen from carnivore, that's basically a gish built on a Bardic chassis:
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Eldritch Knight 8 or Knight phantom 8
Loses 3 caster levels, but makes up for it in combat prowess (BAB +17, OK HD).
OK, I'm pretty sure there should be a 10 behind it. Otherwise it sounds too pointless to even be there (I actually assumed there was a 10 there until I looked more closely). Sounds like Spellsinger is going to fall, unless the DM rules it was a typo. I might just switch Mindbender 1 for it otherwise.
The reason I like Sublime Chord is due to the fact that it advances Bardic Music AND arcane spellcasting -- but it opens up more options on the latter, namely access to spells beyond 6th level, and also increasing your spell selection. I don't know any other class that does this. Plus, the extra song abilities don't sound half bad, either.
In any case, my character has reached level 6 already, and took another level in Bard, so I can't use any build with Bard levels beneath that. Also, if I'm going to switch levels before 10th, they will likely be the Spellsinger and Divine Oracle levels. Lyric Thaumaturge sounds cool, except that the real good stuff only start showing in the latter levels. The same happens to the Virtuoso -- the only two songs I'd really like to see are both in the last two levels. The upside, of course, is that the Virtuoso depends on his Perform check much more.
Because I want magic songs but I don't care about them? One of the reasons I even took up Seeker of the Song is because it has damaging songs in it.
Are you sure you want to be in CharOp rather than CharDev? using bardic music for direct damage is about as un-optimised as you get.
Because I want magic songs but I don't care about them?
"Some bard you are" is right.
One of the reasons I even took up Seeker of the Song is because it has damaging songs in it.
Burning Refrain is garbage and Dirge of Frozen Loss Refrain is mediocre. The only good reason to take two levels in seeker of the song is Combine Song, which you clearly don't care about. If you're only taking it for the flavor, then I also wonder why you're in Char-Op.
Are you sure you want to be in CharOp rather than CharDev? using bardic music for direct damage is about as un-optimised as you get.
Yes, because I'd rather be more direct than a support monster; we've already got one of those in the party. I'm okay with using Bardic Music to enhance my spellcasting or to dominate people or whatever. I just don't like Inspire Courage that much. Is that a crime?
Burning Refrain is garbage and Dirge of Frozen Loss Refrain is mediocre. The only good reason to take two levels in seeker of the song is Combine Song, which you clearly don't care about. If you're only taking it for the flavor, then I also wonder why you're in Char-Op.
How could I "clearly not care about" Combine Song if that's the only reason I'm even dipping into Seeker of the Song? Read the posts above.
"Some bard you are" is right.
So, if I were a cleric and I said I didn't want to heal people, you'd say "some cleric you are" because I'm not a walking band-aid? It's one thing to say "this class is not meant for this" when we're talking about a pure Wizard going melee with no buffs, but you're seriously stereotyping the Bard as a "support only" class, which is something I really couldn't care less for.
On to other suggestions.
Not really a bard build idea, but rather a great bard tactic idea that I give out to most bards. Get a +1 Sudden Stunning (DMGII) slashing weapon, like a rapier or longsword, or even bladed gauntlets or something. Costs about 4300 gold plus base weapon cost. Then look into the spell Whirling Blade from Spell Compendium. Its a level 2 transmutation spell that basically allows you to make melee attacks against all creatures you choose in a line out to 60' from you. Now, if you spend your swift action to activate Sudden Stunning, you can pick one of the targets that you hit with your Whirling Blade and force it to make a REFLEX save with a DC of 10+cha+1/2 level. At your level, thats about a DC 18ish, depending on your cha. Failure means the target is STUNNED for 1d4+1 rounds, which might as well be dead. Its a worthwhile cheap investment, because the DC scales with your level AND your primary ability modifier, so investing in a Cloak of Cha rewards you even more. On top of all that, your Whirled Blade does get the benefits of your bard song, and you can later enchant it with other fun enhancements such as Wounding or Spell Storing to do very mean things to people from a good safe distance. Another thing, since it ONLY hits targets you designate in the line, its friendly fire friendly, so you don't have to reach for that perfect angle to hit your foes but not your friends. Just give it a Whirl and it bounces off every foe and misses every friend. Great spell, even better when comboed with Sudden Stunning as a bard.
This actually a pretty good equipment idea. Which reminds me, what happens if you use a reach weapon with Whirling Blade? Can it attack everyone within reach in a 60-ft. line, or only those within the line itself?
This could make for some serious ownage with a whip.
This actually a pretty good equipment idea. Which reminds me, what happens if you use a reach weapon with Whirling Blade? Can it attack everyone within reach in a 60-ft. line, or only those within the line itself?
This could make for some serious ownage with a whip.
Unfortunately, when using Whirling Blade with a reach weapon, it doesn't make a double wide line effect. You can do that with Metamagic though.
Also, while a Whip IS a slashing weapon, it doesn't do any real damage to anything wearing any armor or having a small amount of natural armor. If you used a whip dagger, it would do more damage. You are probably gonna want to Whirling Blade with something a little better though, since you don't gain any of the advantages of a whip when using the spell. Having a rapier in your offhand works just as well, since you are only required to hold it as a focus rather than actually wield it.
Unfortunately, when using Whirling Blade with a reach weapon, it doesn't make a double wide line effect. You can do that with Metamagic though.
Also, while a Whip IS a slashing weapon, it doesn't do any real damage to anything wearing any armor or having a small amount of natural armor. If you used a whip dagger, it would do more damage. You are probably gonna want to Whirling Blade with something a little better though, since you don't gain any of the advantages of a whip when using the spell. Having a rapier in your offhand works just as well, since you are only required to hold it as a focus rather than actually wield it.
That's odd... the spell itself doesn't make any specific mention to it. It doesn't make reference to the weapon's reach anywhere, or whether it affects things, either. I asked another friend of mine who happens to DM for my group often, and he said as much too. Strangely, the fluff part of the spell is the only thing that seems to contradict this understanding, as it mentions the weapon spinning and whirling around -- how do you restrict range with a whip?
Bard 6/Virtuoso 4/Seeker of the Song 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +6
Edit: Depending on how much you would want to use the undead, Dirgesinger from Libris Mortis might be a choise...
Basically, add +16 to your attacks (, skills, checks ) a lots. Stacks with song. ( which will not be uber, though. )
It's also +20 damage on a Diamond Mind strike, but you didn't have ToB..
I just don't like Inspire Courage that much. Is that a crime?
Not really. Not liking it and not being a Factotum instead? That's the crime.
Seriously, Bards that don't share their Bardic Music are called one thing: dead meat (a.k.a. ham). This is what Bards do, they play the 5th wheel and they do it damn well.
I don't know if this may interest you, it sticks pretty close to your original build, and you said that you were interested in the later levels of Virtuoso.
Bard 6/Virtuoso 4/Seeker of the Song 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +6
Edit: Depending on how much you would want to use the undead, Dirgesinger from Libris Mortis might be a choise...
Pretty interesting, although the Sublime Chord levels sound kinda dead if they're not present in sufficient amounts. What I really, really like on the Sublime Chord is gaining access to Wizard/Sorc spells without being a Wizard (specifically on the campaign world this character is in, because Wizards are basically shunned by society at large. Long story), it seems kinda pointless if the spellcasting isn't going beyond 6th level... Gonna take a look at the Dirgesinger, though, it sounds cool.
Can you get something out of this?
Basically, add +16 to your attacks (, skills, checks ) a lots. Stacks with song. ( which will not be uber, though. )
It's also +20 damage on a Diamond Mind strike, but you didn't have ToB..
Whoo, Improvisation. I'm familiar with the spell. I don't know many other occasions in which boosting my CL that high is going to help that much, though.
Not really. Not liking it and not being a Factotum instead? That's the crime.
Seriously, Bards that don't share their Bardic Music are called one thing: dead meat (a.k.a. ham). This is what Bards do, they play the 5th wheel and they do it damn well.
One, our DM restricted a lot of classes on this particular campaign world (no Warlocks or Monks, for example). Two, I'm afraid I don't even know where the Factotum is from...
Factotum is from Dungeonscape. Uses inspiration points to add his INT to pretty much anything X times per combat (And X can be quite high with font of inspiration feat). Can eventually use inspiration points to cast wizard and cleric spells if he wants to.
I just checked it out. Interesting class, but at this point I'd rather not ditch my bard.
Also, the DM has been looking out for silliness since our weird Paladin of Something has been stacking Smite Good with the Destruction domain Smite, Charging Smite and cavalry feats. So I'd better not fully optimize the inspiration. I've grabbed Song of Creation and Inspirational Boost, though, so as it is I'm not leaving my party hanging.
What about templates? Any good ones with relatively low LA and that could be acquired over the campaign? Since LA buyoff is allowed in this particular campaign and pretty much everyone in my party is getting one, I figured I might as well look into that venue too.
If you're wanting a "direct damage bard" - ie: the spells are what's interesting you...
Why a bard? An optimized bard is about the buff.
You could play a beguiler (from PHB2) and get your d6 HD, light armor, awesome skills, and be the face - but you're a direct damage caster that focuses on illusions and enchantments. Which is what it sounds like you're digging on.I appologize for not directly answering your query - but it seems as though you're saying "hey, guys, I need an optimized bard," "OK, dude... do this, this and this..." "Well, no... I want my bard to focus on this non-traditional approach..." So you're wanting optimization that focuses on features your class wasn't designed to properly showcase. As such... pause to consider another option, maybe? I think beguiler might work for you. ;)
Also, in regards to the whip; Imperious Command with a reach weapon is a nice idea - but won't work with a whip or whip-dagger. Why? Because whips don't threaten anything. They're essentially ranged weapons, per the PHB. [shrug] This is why the whip/combat reflexes/trip-master build doesn't work.
anyway i agree with the other: focusing on damage is a useless thing...leave the damage to the BSF :D damage is for INT 8 guys :D :D we are bards we make ppl do what we want :D why fighting a powerful dragon when u can easily force him with diplomacy to be ur pet? eheheheh :D
anyway here u are some handy links:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952766 generic
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=795369 high damage and support
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-340926 a lot of builds here
bard relies on cHA so if u want some nice template try Spark (magical-blooded) from dragon 306 pag. 64 (+2 CHA -2 WIS retains all others race modifier has ome minor spells like spell-like ability 1/day and some other things....)
anyway i agree with the other: focusing on damage is a useless thing...leave the damage to the BSF damage is for INT 8 guys we are bards we make ppl do what we want why fighting a powerful dragon when u can easily force him with diplomacy to be ur pet? eheheheh
anyway here u are some handy links:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952766 generic
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=795369 high damage and support
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-340926 a lot of builds here
I'm afraid Dragon Magazine is not an option... But I'll check the links, thanks.
Just a few thoughts, dude.
If you're wanting a "direct damage bard" - ie: the spells are what's interesting you...
Why a bard? An optimized bard is about the buff. You could play a beguiler (from PHB2) and get your d6 HD, light armor, awesome skills, and be the face - but you're a direct damage caster that focuses on illusions and enchantments. Which is what it sounds like you're digging on.
I appologize for not directly answering your query - but it seems as though you're saying "hey, guys, I need an optimized bard," "OK, dude... do this, this and this..." "Well, no... I want my bard to focus on this non-traditional approach..." So you're wanting optimization that focuses on features your class wasn't designed to properly showcase. As such... pause to consider another option, maybe? I think beguiler might work for you.
Also, in regards to the whip; Imperious Command with a reach weapon is a nice idea - but won't work with a whip or whip-dagger. Why? Because whips don't threaten anything. They're essentially ranged weapons, per the PHB. [shrug] This is why the whip/combat reflexes/trip-master build doesn't work.
Okay, perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear.
I'm not aiming for pure damage crunch. Otherwise I'd go for a sorcerer or wizard or something like that. I'm aiming for versatility and flavor. Namely, I don't want my bard songs to be something I used to do that lost usefulness as I leveled up. Conversely, I don't want my spellcasting to be useless, either. But I'm NOT going for a melee build. That's why I'm keeping the Sublime Chord as the backbone of this build, with the Seeker of the Song dip for combine song.
Basically, I'll be picking more offensive or multi-purpose spells when I get to the Sublime Chord levels. I'll check on the Imperious Command/Whip combo, though.
EDIT: Imperious command makes no mention whatosever of threatening.
I'm afraid Dragon Magazine is not an option... But I'll check the links, thanks.
Okay, perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear.
I'm not aiming for pure damage crunch. Otherwise I'd go for a sorcerer or wizard or something like that. I'm aiming for versatility and flavor. Namely, I don't want my bard songs to be something I used to do that lost usefulness as I leveled up. Conversely, I don't want my spellcasting to be useless, either. But I'm NOT going for a melee build. That's why I'm keeping the Sublime Chord as the backbone of this build, with the Seeker of the Song dip for combine song.
Basically, I'll be picking more offensive or multi-purpose spells when I get to the Sublime Chord levels. I'll check on the Imperious Command/Whip combo, though.
EDIT: Imperious command makes no mention whatosever of threatening.
12d6 of sonic/fire damage to all party members melee attacks....doesn't seem to me that songs become useless at higher lvls
anyway i think i would enjoy better ur character if u choose to specialize in handling every kind of situation....buff, battlefield control, debuff, diplomacy...gilberness+bluff.
atm 'm filling the role of the buffer,cleric,party-face and also battlefield controller (our mage is stupid and decided to be the glass-cannon
) all-in-one and i never did a single 1 point of damage with my own hands :D12d6 of sonic/fire damage to all party members melee attacks....doesn't seem to me that songs become useless at higher lvls
anyway i think i would enjoy better ur character if u choose to specialize in handling every kind of situation....buff, battlefield control, debuff, diplomacy...gilberness+bluff.
atm 'm filling the role of the buffer,cleric,party-face and also battlefield controller (our mage is stupid and decided to be the glass-cannon ) all-in-one and i never did a single 1 point of damage with my own hands
The damage you speak of is from a Dragonfire Adept combo, isn't it?
I'm just sick of people going all "Inspire Courage silliness! INSPIRE COURAGE SILLINESS WINS ALL AND EVERYTHING! YOU SHOULDN'T DO ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT!!" on me. I mean, it IS cool, but not what I'm specifically aiming for.
I'm partly reduced as the party face due to two facts. One, our resident Paladin of Something tends to try and nab the role for himself, and two, we have a vampire NPC in our party, who just so happens to be very good at dominating people. I'm picking up Glibness soon, though I'm still unsure on whether I'll grab Wanderer's Diplomacy or not... I pretty much help quite a bit with healing, given that our cleric (the vampire NPC I mentioned earlier) is very low-level because of her stupidly high LA template.
As it is, with two feats I'm doing a good job of debuffing (Haunting Melody + Imperious Command -- do note, if I stop the fear song and start it again, my targets have to make another save or cower for another round. Repeat until they **** their pants). I don't intend to be a primary blaster until I reach higher levels, and even so by then I'll probably be picking more utilitarian spells.
The problem I see with focusing on buffs is that you are hardly self-sufficient. What happens if your friends are all agonizing and you're left with the angry mob? Are you going to say, "I can, uh... make you guys heroic if you spare my life? Please?"
There's a limit on what one can achieve with Enchantments, and although it is high, I'd rather not bet all my money on one trick.
Versatility is what I'm primarily going for.
The damage you speak of is from a Dragonfire Adept combo, isn't it?
I'm just sick of people going all "Inspire Courage silliness! INSPIRE COURAGE SILLINESS WINS ALL AND EVERYTHING! YOU SHOULDN'T DO ANYTHING MORE THAN THAT!!" on me. I mean, it IS cool, but not what I'm specifically aiming for.
I'm partly reduced as the party face due to two facts. One, our resident Paladin of Something tends to try and nab the role for himself, and two, we have a vampire NPC in our party, who just so happens to be very good at dominating people. I'm picking up Glibness soon, though I'm still unsure on whether I'll grab Wanderer's Diplomacy or not... I pretty much help quite a bit with healing, given that our cleric (the vampire NPC I mentioned earlier) is very low-level because of her stupidly high LA template.
As it is, with two feats I'm doing a good job of debuffing (Haunting Melody + Imperious Command -- do note, if I stop the fear song and start it again, my targets have to make another save or cower for another round. Repeat until they **** their pants). I don't intend to be a primary blaster until I reach higher levels, and even so by then I'll probably be picking more utilitarian spells.
The problem I see with focusing on buffs is that you are hardly self-sufficient. What happens if your friends are all agonizing and you're left with the angry mob? Are you going to say, "I can, uh... make you guys heroic if you spare my life? Please?"
There's a limit on what one can achieve with Enchantments, and although it is high, I'd rather not bet all my money on one trick.
Versatility is what I'm primarily going for.
no just DragonFire Inspiration feat that converts xmorale bonuses in xd6 of damage
Well i don't think some1 is suggesting u to become a moving +xd6 inspire courage pet :D if u take melodic casting feat as i did and as every1 suggested me u can sing spells while u do inspire courage so u can do buff/battlefield control at the same time avoiding boredom.
with SC levels ur spells are not only buffs u can pick also some God's spells :D
and btw bard class has some interesting spells too who said u are just the buffer? but doing damage is really really a boring and stupid role leave it to fighters they are stupid for a reason :D
I never found myself helpless when alone....i always had a way to handle the situation:
1. Diplomacy vs intelligent beings
2. Bluff+gilbness: hey big dragon i'm your father :D (1st idiotic thing came into my mind xD)
3. Affascinate song + suggestion.....
4. spells....i try to handle it and if the situation become too risky i just teleport away....
anyway here's the build i'm using atm
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15271079&postcount=42
i didn't took the prerequisite feats for ur-priest cuz my DM said it wasn't necessary :P :D
1. Diplomacy vs intelligent beings
2. Bluff+gilbness: hey big dragon i'm your father (1st idiotic thing came into my mind xD)
3. Affascinate song + suggestion.....
4. spells....i try to handle it and if the situation become too risky i just teleport away....
1. Doesn't work on creatures already attacking you.
2. Better for creating a diversion to run away, doesn't work on targets with no int score, not gonna do much if you're surrounded
3. Same problem as Diplomacy.
4. Not all Bards gain access to teleport, you know.
no just DragonFire Inspiration feat that converts xmorale bonuses in xd6 of damage
I don't qualify. My character is a plain human.
if u take melodic casting feat as i did and as every1 suggested me u can sing spells while u do inspire courage so u can do buff/battlefield control at the same time avoiding boredom.
Not a lot of battlefield control available to me at present, but I'll take a look at that venue.
anyway if alway run around while being invisible i doubt when u will be alone some1 will attack u before giving u the opportunity to fascinate/diplomacy/bluff him....i really doubt...anyway do as u wish
d.fire just try to convince ur DM to houserule Draconic heritage prerequisite to apply also to bards...that's gives u a lot of roleplaying hints: a draconic heritage who-ho-oh:D draconic flavor who doesn't want this? :D
4) SC is here 4 smth? or not? :D
The build will be something like this:
1) Bard - Magical Aptitude, Storm Magic
2) Bard
3) Bard - Melodic Casting
4) Bard
5) Bard
6) Stormsinger 1 - Doomspeak
7) Stormsinger 2
8) Stormsinger 3
9) Stormsinger 4 - Lyric Spell or Lingering Song (depends on preference)
10) Stormsinger 5
11) Sublime Chord 1
12) Sublime Chord 2 - Lyric Spell or Lingering Song (depends on preference)
13) Stormsinger 6
14) Stormsinger 7
15) Stormsinger 8 - Any feat
16) Stormsinger 9
17) Stormsinger 10
The next threee levels can be anything of your choice as long as they add caster levels. Stormsinger has a few interesting songs that you might want to look at.
IMHO, if you want to go for full versatility, I would really recommend the Fochuclan Lyrist.
Bard 4 / Rogue 2 / Druid 1 / Stormsinger 3 / Sublime Cord 2 / Fochluclan Lyrist 8
Yes your BAB will only be 14 but with Polymorph in your spell list as well as druid buffs can make you really effective as a melee combatant.
With Stormsinger 3 you could stll do damage from afar if you choose to do so. Your buffing prowess will improve more so with druid buffs albeit only level 4 druid spells, and your bardic music is not neglected as fochuclan lyrst increases those as well.
Or you can save your druid spells for healing, or summonning. Also, you could perform trapfinding for the party if the party rogue is incapacitated or not present.
Just my few cp.
I apologize for casting Raise Dead on the thread, but I haven't had much time to check it out lately.
EDIT: Stormsinger doesn't look very attractive... it's a 3-level dip just to get the class feature I want, requires two feats (one of which will never see practical use), plus the thunderstrike both requires an attack roll AND allows a save...
EDIT:
Ever take a step back, look at what you wrote, and realize that you just might have been channeling PhoenixInferno? Man, is there a small shrine to that guy around here? I feel like I should leave a tithe or sacrifice a small lamb or calf.
What more do you want? Its clear you've done a bunch of homework, its clear you've been given a lot of good ideas. You can't just dip your canteen into the eternal font of wisdom and hope to get every drop. Is there something you want clarified? Different options you want weighed? Some part of your build you just can't stitch together in a way that doesn't leave a horrible scar? Some gimmik you hope to acomplish if maybe, just maybe, there exists some obscure feat in some even more obscure sourcebook chiseled out in stone buried at the bottom of an ancient Incan temple? What? Direct us, so that we may direct you, because unlike some of my PCs, I personally don't have any levels in Mindbender.
:D :D :D :D :D rotfl:D :D :D :D :D
What more do you want? Its clear you've done a bunch of homework, its clear you've been given a lot of good ideas. You can't just dip your canteen into the eternal font of wisdom and hope to get every drop. Is there something you want clarified? Different options you want weighed? Some part of your build you just can't stitch together in a way that doesn't leave a horrible scar? Some gimmik you hope to acomplish if maybe, just maybe, there exists some obscure feat in some even more obscure sourcebook chiseled out in stone buried at the bottom of an ancient Incan temple? What? Direct us, so that we may direct you, because unlike some of my PCs, I personally don't have any levels in Mindbender.
I was mostly looking for suggestions on what to do. Right now I'm trying to weigh my options so they don't seriously screw me up.
As it is, my character is now a Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge1. He's staying that way. One of my major decisions at the next point is A) whether I'll take levels in Stormsinger or not (if so, I'll probably take 3 of them for Thunderstrike, then go Seeker of the Song2/Sublime Chord2) and B)what class to take after Sublime Chord.
The problem with Stormsinger is that Storm Magic just won't be seeing much play, IF ANY, on this character. So I'm hesitating on taking it. The upside is that Perform checks are incredibly EASY to boost (specially with the inspiration trick), so if I DID take it, the damage would be VERY considerable. However, progressing beyond that point might be a touch moot.
As for point B), Virtuoso seemed like an option, but not only does the loss of a caster level seem bad, the Virtuoso's class features after that just aren't going to be very useful. I'm not sure if I'd want to continue with Lyric Thaumaturge, and I don't know my way around arcane PrCs enough to make assumptions on the next best step.
I was mostly looking for suggestions on what to do. Right now I'm trying to weigh my options so they don't seriously screw me up.
As it is, my character is now a Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge1. He's staying that way. One of my major decisions at the next point is A) whether I'll take levels in Stormsinger or not (if so, I'll probably take 3 of them for Thunderstrike, then go Seeker of the Song2/Sublime Chord2) and B)what class to take after Sublime Chord.
The problem with Stormsinger is that Storm Magic just won't be seeing much play, IF ANY, on this character. So I'm hesitating on taking it. The upside is that Perform checks are incredibly EASY to boost (specially with the inspiration trick), so if I DID take it, the damage would be VERY considerable. However, progressing beyond that point might be a touch moot.
As for point B), Virtuoso seemed like an option, but not only does the loss of a caster level seem bad, the Virtuoso's class features after that just aren't going to be very useful. I'm not sure if I'd want to continue with Lyric Thaumaturge, and I don't know my way around arcane PrCs enough to make assumptions on the next best step.
I just posted a pretty sweet caster-style build. It's fairly feat heavy, but here's the gist: Bard7/Heartwarder3/Sublime Chord1/Heartwarder7/Sublime Chord2. The idea is that you play a bard with a 28 charisma, 9th level spells and no penalty to bardic abilities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a versatile bard build forged from equal parts awesome and win.
I was mostly looking for suggestions on what to do. Right now I'm trying to weigh my options so they don't seriously screw me up.
As it is, my character is now a Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge1. He's staying that way. One of my major decisions at the next point is A) whether I'll take levels in Stormsinger or not (if so, I'll probably take 3 of them for Thunderstrike, then go Seeker of the Song2/Sublime Chord2) and B)what class to take after Sublime Chord.
The problem with Stormsinger is that Storm Magic just won't be seeing much play, IF ANY, on this character. So I'm hesitating on taking it. The upside is that Perform checks are incredibly EASY to boost (specially with the inspiration trick), so if I DID take it, the damage would be VERY considerable. However, progressing beyond that point might be a touch moot.
As for point B), Virtuoso seemed like an option, but not only does the loss of a caster level seem bad, the Virtuoso's class features after that just aren't going to be very useful. I'm not sure if I'd want to continue with Lyric Thaumaturge, and I don't know my way around arcane PrCs enough to make assumptions on the next best step.
Whats wrong with continueing to take SC to conclusion? Its not a bad class, even though most people never take more than 2 levels of it. Some of the abilities are kind of neat. I'm just saying, its another alternative to Virtuoso, and it has full casting AND full song progression, plus you don't have to worry about meeting the prereqs for another PrC. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Whats wrong with continueing to take SC to conclusion? Its not a bad class, even though most people never take more than 2 levels of it. Some of the abilities are kind of neat. I'm just saying, its another alternative to Virtuoso, and it has full casting AND full song progression, plus you don't have to worry about meeting the prereqs for another PrC. Sounds like a good deal to me.
and btw SC at 10th lvl gets songs of cosmic fire that would suits Koroimaken's needs for a damage dealing bard...AoE 20 foot radius with 100ft range that deals damage equal to your perform check halved by a successful reflex save of 20+CHA is definitely better than that single target thunder song....
and btw SC at 10th lvl gets songs of cosmic fire that would suits Koroimaken's needs for a damage dealing bard...AoE 20 foot radius with 100ft range that deals damage equal to your perform check halved by a successful reflex save of 20+CHA is definitely better than that single target thunder song....
Yeah, but you don't get it until level 20, and by then, ~50 damage from a perform check is less than phonomonal, especially when ~20 of that is reduced by fire resitance that ~70% of enemies you face will have, unless they are outright immune. Even then, the radius on it is so small, that anything you try to hit with it that is huge+ or large with reach will be able to full attack you with a 5' step, never a situation you want to put yourself in. There are lots of better ways to do significant damage as a bard without putting yourself in harms way.
Pretty interesting, although the Sublime Chord levels sound kinda dead if they're not present in sufficient amounts. What I really, really like on the Sublime Chord is gaining access to Wizard/Sorc spells without being a Wizard (specifically on the campaign world this character is in, because Wizards are basically shunned by society at large. Long story), it seems kinda pointless if the spellcasting isn't going beyond 6th level... Gonna take a look at the Dirgesinger, though, it sounds cool.
Sublime Chord is a "separate spellcasting" prestige class, like Ur Priest or Chameleon.
At each level it grants you new spells and caster level almost as a "base class" do, therefore what everyone is suggesting is:
take two levels of Sublime Chord (nothing really intreresting in the class beyound that) and advance its casting through another prestige class.
You will still be able to cast 9th level spells, plus you will have some nice features instead of a bunch of dead levels.
Also, I am surprised no one mentioned dragonfire ispiration yet. That alone would give you a VERY good reason to optimize inspire courage, even if you are not a great team player.
EDIT: eh, I should notice there is a second page in a thread... Shame on me
Just a thought.
Sublime Chord is a "separate spellcasting" prestige class, like Ur Priest or Chameleon.
At each level it grants you new spells and caster level almost as a "base class" do, therefore what everyone is suggesting is:
take two levels of Sublime Chord (nothing really intreresting in the class beyound that) and advance its casting through another prestige class.
You will still be able to cast 9th level spells, plus you will have some nice features instead of a bunch of dead levels.
Also, I am surprised no one mentioned dragonfire ispiration yet. That alone would give you a VERY good reason to optimize inspire courage, even if you are not a great team player.
EDIT: eh, I should notice there is a second page in a thread... Shame on me
I actually noticed it later. Thanks for reminding me, though.
I just posted a pretty sweet caster-style build. It's fairly feat heavy, but here's the gist: Bard7/Heartwarder3/Sublime Chord1/Heartwarder7/Sublime Chord2. The idea is that you play a bard with a 28 charisma, 9th level spells and no penalty to bardic abilities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a versatile bard build forged from equal parts awesome and win.
+5 charisma IS tempting, so I'll look into the Heartwarder. As I recall, though, the PrC's other class abilities are... less than phenomenal. Still gonna take another look. Why three levels of SC, though?
Also, I believe SirLavandino's query has been adressed by Wyvernhand's reply.
Hmmm, could you squeak into Iot7V after grabbing your 2 SC levels? That would take you all the way to level 19, although it wouldn't advance music. This would add a strong defensive characteristic to the character while progressing spellcasting. That way, you could hide behind flashy veils while Inspiring and Casting away.
Just a thought.
No Bardic Music progression sounds like I wouldn't be a Bard by then. But I'll take a look.
+5 charisma IS tempting, so I'll look into the Heartwarder. As I recall, though, the PrC's other class abilities are... less than phenomenal. Still gonna take another look. Why three levels of SC, though?
Heartwarder's other abilities are less than phenomenal, that's true, but for an optimized bard spellcaster, you just can't beat a free +5 to cha. The great thing is, because Sublime Chord has it's own spellcasting progression, you can have Heartwarder stack with that instead of Bard. It's a great way to get both a 28 cha and 9th level spells.
As for why three levels of SC instead of just two, the honest answer is that I wasn't sure what to do next. In the thread where I posted that build, I was looking for suggestions.
Maybe I could go with Virtuoso after all, because of the fact it continues the Inspire progression (with Dragonfire Inspiration, if my DM allows it, this could get pretty nice). But I don't know yet...
1. Bard - Bardic Music, Spellbreaker Song alt feature, Dodge, Mobility
2. Bard
3. Bard - Inspire Competence, Spell Focus (Enchantment)
4. Bard - Cha +1
5. Bard
6. Bard - Suggestion, Melodic Casting
7. Lyric Thaumaturge - Bardic Music Progression, Bonus Spells
8. Lyric Thaumaturge - Captivating Melody, Cha +1
9. Heartwarder - Cha +1, Words of Power
10. Heartwarder - Heart of Passion
11. Sublime Chord - Bard Progression, Alternate Spellcasting
12. Sublime Chord - Song of Arcane Power, Extend Spell, Cha +1
13. Heartwarder - Cha +1
14. Heartwarder - Lips of Rapture
15. Heartwarder - Cha +1, Versatile Spellcasting
16. Heartwarder - Voice of a Siren, Cha +1
17. Heartwarder - Cha +1
18. Heartwarder - Tears of Evergold, Lingering Song
19. Heartwarder - Cha +1
20. Heartwarder - Fey Metamorphosis, Cha +1
A lot of those feats are merely suggestions as well. If you wanted to focus less on bardic music and more on casting, for instance, you could replace Words of Power with Spell Focus (Conjuration) then trade Lingering Song for Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration). You'd probably want a more effective metamagic feat for conjuration than Extend Spell, though. Empower is always a good one. You might trade Versatile Spellcasting for Sculpt Spell at that point, but I find VS so useful that I wouldn't do it. Especially considering the lack of 3rd level spells in this build.
Ending with a Charisma of 28 and 9th level spells with a bard build is pretty sweet, if you ask me. At any rate, I hope this helps.
Here's an improved version of the build. CG Human with Cha of 18.
1. Bard - Bardic Music, Spellbreaker Song alt feature, Dodge, Mobility
2. Bard
3. Bard - Inspire Competence, Spell Focus (Enchantment)
4. Bard - Cha +1
5. Bard
6. Bard - Suggestion, Melodic Casting
7. Lyric Thaumaturge - Bardic Music Progression, Bonus Spells
8. Lyric Thaumaturge - Captivating Melody, Cha +1
9. Heartwarder - Cha +1, Words of Power
10. Heartwarder - Heart of Passion
11. Sublime Chord - Bard Progression, Alternate Spellcasting
12. Sublime Chord - Song of Arcane Power, Extend Spell, Cha +1
13. Heartwarder - Cha +1
14. Heartwarder - Lips of Rapture
15. Heartwarder - Cha +1, Versatile Spellcasting
16. Heartwarder - Voice of a Siren, Cha +1
17. Heartwarder - Cha +1
18. Heartwarder - Tears of Evergold, Lingering Song
19. Heartwarder - Cha +1
20. Heartwarder - Fey Metamorphosis, Cha +1
A lot of those feats are merely suggestions as well. If you wanted to focus less on bardic music and more on casting, for instance, you could replace Words of Power with Spell Focus (Conjuration) then trade Lingering Song for Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration). You'd probably want a more effective metamagic feat for conjuration than Extend Spell, though. Empower is always a good one. You might trade Versatile Spellcasting for Sculpt Spell at that point, but I find VS so useful that I wouldn't do it. Especially considering the lack of 3rd level spells in this build.
Ending with a Charisma of 28 and 9th level spells with a bard build is pretty sweet, if you ask me. At any rate, I hope this helps.
Indeed, it's sweet. Unfortunately, I won't be able to use it for three reasons.
1)My character is Chaotic Neutral, and he's hanging with the bad guys. Even if he did shift to CG it wouldn't last long...
2)Heartwarder is FAR too feat-intensive. While I -can- retrain my feats, it takes IC game time to do so -- quite a bit, in fact. There are lots of feats I want to take and Heartwarder doesn't help with -that-.
3)I don't want to end up as a fey! My character already gets far too much flak for being a womanizer and not pulling much weight in combat.
Also... Why bother with Lingering Song when an instrument with continuous Animate Instrument is strictly better? Why so much focus on Conjuration? I know it's a good school, but there are better things to spend feats on than Spell Focus -- like Subsonics, for example.
EDIT: Anyone know good templates for Bards?
How about adding
dread witch from heroes of horror?
How many levels do you have left againg?
How about adding
dread witch from heroes of horror?
On the build, 6 levels. At present, my character is level 7 (Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge1). I'm considering three levels of Stormsinger from there, or three levels of Virtuoso, or even continuing Lyric Thaumaturge for three levels. Then, 2 levels of Seeker of the Song for Combine Song, 2 levels of Sublime Chord for the spellcasting + Arcane Song Power, and from there, I'm stumped.
EDIT: Dread Witch doesn't really synergize... last I checked it was a stand-alone base caster class.
On the build, 6 levels. At present, my character is level 7 (Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge1). I'm considering three levels of Stormsinger from there, or three levels of Virtuoso, or even continuing Lyric Thaumaturge for three levels. Then, 2 levels of Seeker of the Song for Combine Song, 2 levels of Sublime Chord for the spellcasting + Arcane Song Power, and from there, I'm stumped.
EDIT: Dread Witch doesn't really synergize... last I checked it was a stand-alone base caster class.
Well, if Heartwarder is out because of the alignment restriction, I might suggest one more level of Lyric Thaumaturge, 2 levels of Virtuoso (if you can qualify by then), 2 levels of Sublime Chord and finish out with Virtuoso adding the caster levels to your Sublime Chord to get the 9th level spells. So the end build would look something like: Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge2/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8. If you can swing the requirements, you might also want to consider Loremaster or Archmage instead of Virtuoso. Both those can add some serious power to the build.
Dread Witch doesn't really synergize... last I checked it was a stand-alone base caster class.
What's a "stand-alone base caster class"? Maybe you're confounding it with the Dread Necromancer base class, which is from the same book...
Well, if Heartwarder is out because of the alignment restriction, I might suggest one more level of Lyric Thaumaturge, 2 levels of Virtuoso (if you can qualify by then), 2 levels of Sublime Chord and finish out with Virtuoso adding the caster levels to your Sublime Chord to get the 9th level spells. So the end build would look something like: Bard6/Lyric Thaumaturge2/Virtuoso2/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso8. If you can swing the requirements, you might also want to consider Loremaster or Archmage instead of Virtuoso. Both those can add some serious power to the build.
+1, this is a very good advice.
What's a "stand-alone base caster class"? Maybe you're confounding it with the Dread Necromancer base class, which is from the same book...
I thought it was a base caster class like Sorcerer or Wizard. Nonetheless, I don't think I'll take it... It's cool, but doesn't really fit this guy's concept: he's more of a behind the scenes kind of guy, not a terrorizer.
+1, this is a very good advice.
Loremaster I think might be possible, but I recall Archmage being tricky. I'll check it out.