Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lokilokss May 21, 2008 22:17:28	I'm in a game with several unique house rules: 1. They roll traits on a table I got this: demonic ancestry (Human without the human race benefits) +2 to all stats +2 to saving throws detect as evil cannot be good cannot be lawful 2. They don't give 2x for two handed weapon power attacks 3. The highest level we'll get to will probably be around 11 or 12 MAX 4. We use Core + Completes 5. We're in a desert setting 6. We're using spell points per the UA variant. 7. And last but not least: Metamagic spell level increases are 1 level lower than listed. (Divine Metamagic is only reduced by one). Party members are: 1. Paladin (6) 2. Ranger (6) 3. Mage (6) 4. Me This means that I'm having to cast Undetectable Alignment on a regular basis I'm expected to be able to heal (but I'm not averse to having to memorize them and use spontaneous cause wounds) A lot of things about the character are set: Class levels: 1 level Fighter then 5 levels Cleric Stats (Including Ancestry) Str: 14 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 18 Cha: 22 +2 for race +1 (4th level) + 2 for Cloak of Charisma HP: 44 Feats: Quicken Spell Divine Metamagic Quicken Equipment: Cloak of Charisma +1 Full Plate 1 Camel Money: 6,175 gp Available for Optimization: Alignment Deity Domains Spells 1 Bonus Fighter Feat 2 Regular Feats Skill points 6,175 gold I'm looking to try to be a melee cleric with quickened buffing, but I'm fine with other ideas as long as I'm not a walking healbox/buffbox. My attempt CN Boccob Planning, Trickery Extend Spell (free from planning) Power Attack Divine Might Extra Spell Turning Lots of Diplomacy with 5 ranks in Bluff, & Sense Motive Cool on Full Plate (Sandstorm) Bracers of Armor +1 Thanks in advance, LokiLoks
#2 erhnamdj May 21, 2008 23:30:55	Please, oh please, I beg of thee! Do not take that fighter level! You'll have the same base attack without it at cleric 6 and a higher one at cleric 7 thanks to your quickened divine power. You say 'detect as evil.' Does that mean you are evil or just show up that way on alignment detection spells? If it just means the latter, just play whatever alignment you like and ignore it. You put 'extra spell turning' as a feat. Do you mean extra turning? Since they've nerfed power attack, I would avoid taking it. With the spell points system, it won't matter whether you channel heals or inflicts, you only need to spend one of your prepared slots on either. Bracers of armor don't stack with full plate. Why buy both? And I would probably switch your Strength or Constitution with your Wisdom and switch your level up point to that.
#3 lokilokss May 21, 2008 23:57:48	I'm stuck with the Fighter 1, and it's extra turning feat that I was meaning. The plan was to be able to cast as many DMM quickened spells/day as possible. I detect as evil, and given we have a strict paladin (he doesn't accept anything that could be construed as evil) I wasn't aware that the bracers didn't stack, so I'll drop that idea. The original idea behind the fighter class was to get the bonus feat so I could get to divine might. I might be able to switch it to some other fighter type. I can't pick any lawful or good for my alignment. (only 1 deviation from evil and 1 deviation from chaotic allowed) I think I may be able to switch my stats around, but the Cha and the int have to stay as is. Thanks so much for your reply!
#4 gavinfoxx May 22, 2008 0:05:59	Why not play chaotic neutral?
#5 phoenix00 May 22, 2008 1:13:21	why oh why the fighter level. If you must need a feat slot, do ordained champion instead and switch out a domain for a fighter feat. Remember Ordained Champion gives you another domain so it isn't really a loss. Also Full bab. And the later levels of ordained champion will allow you to quicken spells for free.
#6 erhnamdj May 22, 2008 1:16:22	Yeah, beg, pleed, bribe. Do whatever it takes to get rid of that fighter level.
#7 lokilokss May 22, 2008 11:21:24	The tables that we use to roll up the character's special feature are based on the starting level class. That means the first level must be the fighter or variant thereof. Ordained Champion has requirements that make it at the earliest a second level choice. If there's a Fighter variant that I can use that would be preferred, that may be doable. Chaotic Neutral is fine, Neutral Neutral is fine, and actually I'm not THAT averse to being evil, but if I have a character that's going to be a cleric calling out to the unbelievers in my deity's name, using my deity's symbol, I'd imagine that deity mustn't be associated too strongly with Evil lest the paladin freak out. Please help me make something out of the frustrating limitations I have. Just think of it this way, In order to get +2 to all saves & stats, you had to be a fighter type for level 1. After that, it's open except that I want to be a cleric type. Regarding changing stats, They're pretty much fixed, I could move 2 points from con into dex or strength and that's it.
#8 erhnamdj May 22, 2008 13:05:29	Please help me make something out of the frustrating limitations I have. Just think of it this way, In order to get +2 to all saves & stats, you had to be a fighter type for level 1. After that, it's open except that I want to be a cleric type. Regarding changing stats, They're pretty much fixed, I could move 2 points from con into dex or strength and that's it. I would take all 10's for starting stats before I'd takea fighter level in a cleric build (And subesquently jack those up with aging). Are all of your major arteries all in the same place as on a human? You could have him become so overwhelmed by the conflicting forces of evil and neutrality that he takes his own life... Just a thought. Now, what you could do is go for an Ur Priest build. That's on your list of books. I can't really think of anything else right now. Maybe you could use that fighter level to qualify for a level of prestige paladin found in Unearthed Arcana (Also here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) Yeah, ignore that. It requires lawful good, which you can't pull off either.
#9 lokilokss May 22, 2008 13:27:46	prestige paladin must be LG. URpriest? I haven't read up on those builds, and I will do so. It seems to me that one of the major benefits of the UR priest is their ability to convert lower spells into higher ones. Since we're using spell points this becomes moot/less effective I'd think. Thanks ppl
#10 erhnamdj May 22, 2008 13:33:37	prestige paladin must be LG. URpriest? I haven't read up on those builds, and I will do so. It seems to me that one of the major benefits of the UR priest is their ability to convert lower spells into higher ones. Since we're using spell points this becomes moot/less effective I'd think. Thanks ppl It's only used because of its faster spell progression. You could even switch ardent for your cleric levels and take practiced manifester. Can you use the psionic classes found in the xph or srd?
#11 gaffer May 22, 2008 13:45:39	You could just ignore the fighter level and continue on as normal.
#12 erhnamdj May 22, 2008 13:53:28	You could just ignore the fighter level and continue on as normal. Well, you're no fun.
#13 gaffer May 22, 2008 14:06:23	Well, you're no fun. Not really, but we're running out of options. Every sort of hybrid that's been thrown out gets shot down. IMO, take the Fighter level and make use of the feat/weapon proficiencies, then be a standard DMM: Persist cleric.
#14 lokilokss May 22, 2008 18:26:38	I would ask all that say, "Get rid of the Fighter level" to consider it a challenge to try to take advantage of the fluke. I'm sure that the fighter bonus feat may have SOME benefit, the specific one being that I can get to Divine Might via the extra feat power attack. If the Fighter level is too much of a hindrance to the thought process. Please help me make a level 5 cleric with the same stats and some extra hp. MOST IMPORTANTLY, the characters will probably not gain more than 5-6 levels, so don't think about powering out to 20. Assuming that we did ignore the fighter, you're recommending DMM persist, All of my reading has shown that DMM persist is far better in late levels than DMM quicken. Another option I've looked at for melee: Str + Destruction Domains > Pow. Attck > Div. Might > Ex Turn > Ex Turn What about divine vigor or divine shield? What about Travel Domain, War, Knowledge? I'm at a loss now, I've spent hours pouring and pouring over these forums and I'm not sure what all I should do. Assuming that I were to try to do the Ur-Cleric how would one do it given these circumstances? Thanks again for your effort