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| #1parhaiusMay 08, 2012 11:25:37 | Okay, folks. I need some help. I'm trying to optimize (at least as much as I can) a build for a wizard... the problem is, several things about the campaign prevent me from using many of the standard optimization tricks. In addition, I have a pretty clear character concept, and I'd like to make the optimization build fit that as closely as possible. The idea is an elf wizard (yeah, yeah, I know, shooting myself in the foot already, blah blah) that seeks power for power's sake. He doesn't really care about the source of the power, good or bad, lawful or chaotic, so long as it is eventually his. The culture he comes from has very little respect for divine casters and divine sources of power in general, so being a cleric or druid is not an option. Therefore, he decided to become a wizard to maximize his own power. A couple of notes about the campaign: the books allowed are core, the Complete series, the terrain series (Frostburn et. al.), and the Races of the (X) series. I've already decided that since he doesn't want to leave out any sources of arcane power, he's going to be a generalist (yeah yeah, shooting the foot again, I've run out of feet, etc), but is going to take the 1st level Elf Wizard substitution level from Races of the Wild to make up for the loss of spells for not being a specialist. I'd like to throw in some levels of Abjurant Champion eventually, since he wouldn't discount martial power as a viable path (as he would put it, "How many powerful mages have been laid low by the simple stroke of a blade?"), but other than that, I'm wide open to suggestions. Here's a possible build I've come up with. Feel free to tear it apart. Stats: Randomly rolled. Books Used: PHB, DMG, RotW, CA, CM Race: Elf (don't complain, this is one of the few non-negotiables here) Levels: 1: Elf Wizard (1)(Generalist Wizardry, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, Improved Initiative) 2: Wizard (2) 3: Elf Wizard (3)(Natural Link, Skill Focus: Spellcraft) 4: Wizard (4) 5: Wizard (5)(Extend Spell) 6: Wizard (6)(Spell Focus: Transmutation) 7: Wizard (7) 8: Fatespinner (1) 9: Fatespinner (2)(Spell Focus: Enchantment) 10: Fatespinner (3) 11: Fatespinner (4) 12: Abjurant Champion (1)(Split Ray) 13: Abjurant Champion (2) 14: Abjurant Champion (3) 15: Abjurant Champion (4)(Chain Spell) 16: Abjurant Champion (5) 17: Archmage (1) Arcane Reach 18: Archmage (2) Mastery of Shaping (Spell Penetration) 19: Archmage (3) Mastery of Elements 20: Archmage (4) Spell Power |
| #2deoxhydroxinateMay 08, 2012 13:42:47 | First thing I noticed is generalist and you don't want to leave spells "out". There are simple ways to fix that, especially the Illusion school spells: Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration and Shades. You could still effectively give up those schools and still cast spells from them. A thought given your concept (power for the sake of power), what about Rainbow Servant? You stated that the elf doesn't much care for divine powers, but the 10th level ability in Rainbow Servant allows you to add every single cleric spell to your spell list and although he may not care for the divine side of things, being able to tap into their own power source and use it to augment his own fits thematically. For Archmage - The best ability (IMO) that this class gets through High Arcana is Spell Like Ability. At higher levels, this is essentially a free Time Stop, Shapechange, Gate (really, whatever your heart desires). I've personally found that Arcane Reach isn't bad, but is rarely actually needed (though it is fun to deliver Otto's Irrisistable Dances). Mastery of Elements and Shaping, are good choices however. Another thought would be (since you have access to the Races series) would be the Stoneblessed PrC, choose the Gnome path, and hop right into Shadowcraft Mage (since you now qualify as a gnome racially). You'll lose out on 3 caster levels of progression, but assuming you take full casting elsewhere, that won't be an issue since you'll still have all the 9ths you want (you'll only be limited by spells per day, not known since you're a wizard). IIRC there's an elven substitution level for 1st level wizard. You could take that along with the Unearthed Arcana Domain Wizard variant and the Collegiate Wizard feat for a frightening number of spells available. Another thought is initiative. You already have Improved, but you could also grab the Hummingbird (which nets another +4) and with Elven tricks, essentially double that bonus. So, with Improved, Hummingbird and the extra, your modifier is +12 before adding dexterity. Make sure to throw those battlefield control spells before anyone has a chance to act. I'll think of a few other things when I've a bit more time; hope that helps so far. |
| #3draco1119May 08, 2012 14:17:36 | First thought: you don't have the Combat Casting prerequisite for Abjurant Champion. Second thought: if he doesn't care where the power comes from, why not make him a N or CN wizard/Druid/arcane hierophant? I realize divine casting is frowned upon, but this seems appropriate for a dilligaf character. |
| #4KruskMay 08, 2012 14:57:47 | Elf is a fine wizard race, who is giving you crap? Your longbow prof will be really handy at low levels. I personally would go gray elf, if possible, but elf isn't bad. Your feats and classes seem fine, but the important part of a wizard are his spells. Which do you have? |
| #5New-ShadowMay 08, 2012 16:10:55 | First off, are you planning on going epic in this campaign? 'Cause you're going to need to in order to get even some of the dual casting classes that would fit this guy flavor wise (as while stuff like Incarnum/Soul Binds (Magic of Incarnum) or in some cases Vestiges (from Tome of Magic) and the Maritial Disciplines (from Tome of Battle) you can dabble in, for the price of a feat; stuff like being a Cerebremancer (for Psionics), a Noctumancer (Shadowcaster PrC, from Tome of Magic), an Eldritch Theruge (for a Warlock, the PrC itself is from Complete Mage), or even an Ulitimate Magus (arcane prepared/spontainious hybrid PrC, also from C.M.), you would need actual levels in a class to take them). Other ideas include Magelord from Lost Empires of Faerun, at least a level of Dragonslayer from Draconomicon, and a few from Swiftblade ( found here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20...)from the Wizards 3.5 D&D archives, with Unseen Seer (and getting the Ranger spell Hunters' Eye from PH2, if you can) and Arcane Trickster (from DMG) augmenting Magelord. If Dragon magazine and Psionics are allowed (and since I see all Completes, I have to ask), see if you can get access to the Cerebremetamagic feat from Dragon 349 and the Psi-spell feats and Mind Mage PrC from Dragon 313 as they definately give the feeling that you expirement with far different magics than anyone knows/is used to. Two other PrC's, from Complete Divine of all things, are Void Mage and Rainbow Servant, which can be interesting to play. Also, while you are geting Divine spells from the Coutals (from R.S.), they are neither Divine casters (just Arcane casters with Divine spell access) nor are they a true Divine spell source. You would have to stay non-evil and non-chaotic to get in, though. If you are going epic, get on the path to E.T. asap, as not only are the Warlock invocations and Eldritch Blast spontainious (countering a Wizards biggest non-physical weakness) they are inexhaustable and, in some cases, last 24 hours. After that, go for Noctumancer, as the dispelling synergy with a Warlock can be devestating as you never run out of Warlock dispells, with the right invocations of course. Anima Mage, the Binder/arcane caster hybrid, might be a good idea after those two PrC's, but after that the choice is up to you. Bear in mind, if you take levels in all the classes I suggested, you will be chaining yourself to a Neutral alignment, but since you don't care where your power comes from... Second, your build is missing a required prereq. feat it needs for A.C., Combat Casting. Personally, I would drop Imp. Init., Chain Spell, Split Ray, the 7th level of Wizard, and 2 Fatespinner levels for the 1st levels in the Swiftblade, Dragonslayer, and Spellsword (from Complete Warrior). Your build will look like this: 1: Elf Wizard (1)(Generalist Wizardry, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, Dodge) 2: Wizard (2) 3: Elf Wizard (3)(Natural Link, Mobility) 4: Wizard (4) 5: Wizard (5)(Extend Spell) 6: Wizard (6)(Combat Casting) 7: Swiftblade (1) 8: Fatespinner (1) 9: Fatespinner (2)(Spell Focus: Enchantment) 10: Dragonslayer (1) 11: Spellsword (1) 12: Abjurant Champion (1)(Skill Focus: Spellcraft) 13: Abjurant Champion (2) 14: Abjurant Champion (3) 15: Abjurant Champion (4)(Spell Focus: Transmutation) 16: Abjurant Champion (5) 17: Archmage (1) Arcane Reach 18: Archmage (2) Mastery of Shaping (Spell Penetration) 19: Archmage (3) Mastery of Elements 20: Archmage (4) Spell Power You would get the Iron Will feat needed for Dragonslayer from an Otugh (sp?) Hole from Complete Adventurer (I think). I'l spare the details (as you're probably tired of the Wall of Text), but having more HP and an extra attack is always a good idea, among other things. If some of these things aren't possible, than I apologize and will endevor to help you in any way I can. (This was started at 1pm or so Central time, so I apologize if this contains unhelpful info due to a changed direction from other posters.) |
| #6parhaiusMay 08, 2012 16:48:03 | Wow, damn. Lot o' great stuff so far. I really appreciate the feedback! Now then... 1. Yup, I'm a idjit. I forgot Combat Casting. 2. When I said the Complete Series, I meant the books with "Complete" in the title (e.g. Complete Arcane). So yes, psionics are in. Huh, guess I forgot to mention that Psionics Handbook is okay too. Oops. 3. Dragon Magazine stuff is not allowed in this campaign, and neither are any books not specifically listed above, at least for character creation. Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium are the only two books in play I haven't listed so far, but they are not available for starting characters. 4. The DM finds the Warlock class stupid, so that, also, is not in play. Pity, really. 5. The Druid class is effectively not in play for my character, as the DM only allows Sylvan elves to become Druids. And this character is definitely not Sylvan. Geez, at this point, I should re-title the thread "Help me make this generalist wizard build not a gimp. Please!" ![]() I do like the Collegiate Wizard idea listed, as that would effectively allow me 10 1st level spells in my spellbook as a 1st level Wizard. Not bad. I also like the Hummingbird idea, but that's from Dragon Magazine, so is a no-go. In terms of taking levels of actual martial classes, I don't think I'm gonna do that. This is not meant to be a gish build, and I definitely do not want to give up caster levels for any reason. Were I going for gish, though, the ideas listed for it certainly have merit. Looking back at my original build, the thing that bugs me the most (other than missing Combat Casting. Duh.) is the 6th and 7th Wizard levels. I'm sure I can throw something else useful in there. The question is, what? As for spell selection, I'm not quite sure yet. The only starting spell I know for a fact I'll be taking is Mage Armor. Beyond that... *shrug*. With all that said, I definitely like the suggestions I've seen so far, and if I had more open resources for this, belive me, I'd try to do all of it. Please, keep it coming! |
| #7draco1119May 08, 2012 18:36:26 | 5. The Druid class is effectively not in play for my character, as the DM only allows Sylvan elves to become Druids. And this character is definitely not Sylvan. In that case, either Ultimate Magus or Stoneblessed & Shadowcraft Mage are very good options for "caster only" stuff... As are the Theurge and Eldritch Theurge, and the Cerebremancer. Looking back at my original build, the thing that bugs me the most (other than missing Combat Casting. Duh.) is the 6th and 7th Wizard levels. I'm sure I can throw something else useful in there. The question is, what? Spellsword, if you're going Abjurant Champion. Less chance of spell failure, +1 BAB, and a caster level is nothing to sneeze at. As for spell selection, I'm not quite sure yet. The only starting spell I know for a fact I'll be taking is Mage Armor. Beyond that... *shrug*. Believe it or not, Mage Armor isn't as good for an Abjurant Champion as you think it is. Since it's a Conjuration, not an Abjuration, it isn't as useful as some others, like Shield. |
| #8parhaiusMay 09, 2012 5:26:32 | Spellsword, if you're going Abjurant Champion. Less chance of spell failure, +1 BAB, and a caster level is nothing to sneeze at. While Spellsword might be good for a 1-level dip somewhere along the way, this has 2 issues with taking it as early as 6th level: 1. It requires a minimum BAB of +4, which, as a straight wizard, I wouldn't have until after 8th level 2. It requires proficiency in all armors and all martial weapons, effectively mandating a 1-level dip in fighter, paladin, or some other martial class. As stated previously, I don't want to give up any caster levels, so I don't think this is a good idea. I was toying around with another idea for this character, actually. It keeps the Abjurant Champion levels, but includes Geometer to help store all those spells I'd be getting from the Collegiate Wizard feat. Here it is: 1: Elf Wizard (1)(Generalist Wizardry, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, Collegiate Wizard) 2: Wizard (2) 3: Elf Wizard (3)(Natural Link, Improved Initiative) 4: Wizard (4) 5: Wizard (5)(Extend Spell) 6: Wizard (6)(Skill Focus: Spellcraft) 7: Geometer (1) 8: Geometer (2) 9: Geometer (3)(Combat Casting) 10: Geometer (4) 11: Geomoeter (5) 12: Abjurant Champion (1)(Spell Focus: Enchantment) 13: Abjurant Champion (2) 14: Abjurant Champion (3) 15: Abjurant Champion (4)(Spell Focus: Transmutation) 16: Abjurant Champion (5) 17:Archmage (1) Mastery of Shaping 18: Archmage (2) Arcane Reach (Spell Penetration) 19: Archmage (3) Spell-like Ability: Time Stop 20: Archmage (4) Mastery of Elements Whaddya think? Better/worse? |
| #9draco1119May 09, 2012 8:00:43 | 1. It requires a minimum BAB of +4, which, as a straight wizard, I wouldn't have until after 8th level Sorry; I'd forgotten it had those as preregs. I was toying around with another idea for this character, actually. It keeps the Abjurant Champion levels, but includes Geometer to help store all those spells I'd be getting from the Collegiate Wizard feat. Here it is: Am I misremembering the Archmage? I thought it was only 3 levels long? |
| #10parhaiusMay 09, 2012 8:11:39 | Well, according to the srd and the DMG, Archmage is 5 levels long. So... hopefully they aren't wrong. ![]() |
| #11deoxhydroxinateMay 09, 2012 10:43:36 | Archmage is 5 levels long, 5/5 spell progression and "High Arcana" to choose each level. |