Their are two people playing in the campaign. We are playing gestalt characters. My companion is a druid 11-barbarian 5/warshaper 6. It has proven to be a pretty powerful character so far though I wish she would have built a bit differently as my character is also a melee character.
Don't laugh. This is not a tear apart my current build...I know its weaker than it could be. By far. This is a help me now take it in the right direction as this campaign is slated to go well into epic levels. I built the way I did because it left the character very simple (effectively I only had to worry about warblade-as the rest of it is passive) and it gave me a huge number of feats which is what I wanted to build around. I am allowed to change 2 levels from my non warblade side. We also hit level 11 last game and I have not yet taken that level. So here is the current build:
Warblade 10 - Warrior 2/Ranger 2/Expert 2/Fighter 4. I have one level to assign to either side and can change 2 of the levels on the right. The 2 ranger levels were taken because they made a lot of sense with the way the campaign started. Please keep in mind, the Character is a dwarf and very distrustful of magic users, so taking something like wizard levels is pretty much a no. I was allowed to take an alternate set of combat style feats and so earned cleave from level 2 rng, and was allowed to swap animal empathy for another feat. I am allowed to use nearly any book, including 3rd party. Some of my feats will reflect that. My weapon is a great axe, but with rules from a 3rd party book I have given it the traits serrated and folded, so it has the stat line of a minotaur great hammer now. Here are the current feats:
1. Power attack, Endurance, Toughness, Steadfast Determination, 2 Hand Power Strike (double str bonus using 2 hand), Roll with it
2. Combat Relexes, Track
3. Cleave, Roll with it (-4)
4. Headlong Rush (DM removal of orc requirement)
5. Improved Initiative, Improved Bull rush
6. The mountain Does not Move (negation of damage at cost of temp wis point, dc = damage dealt), Shock Trooper
7. Roll with it (-6)
8. Improved Crit
9. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec
10. Melee Weapon Mastery.
Intending to take Robilars Gambit at 12 along with Armor specialization to stack with my roll with it and adamantine armor. I am, as I said, only allowed to change 2 levels of the non warblade side. However, we are allowed to fully retrain our feats one time, during a level up. I have not used this one time yet, so feat's can be completley rebuilt.
Help me kill (or simply survive lol) the enemies we have made!
Ok so, I'm a fairly novice d&d player. I know this and my build will reflect it. Not incredibly serious about min/maxing or optimization in general.
I know I'm not going to be any help here but just reading those lines I'd compare you situation to throwing a non-swimmer into the ocean miles away from any shore (much less a known shore) and telling them they are on their own. Maybe you aren't serious about min/max or optimization but to me it sure looks like the campaign you are in would require those things in spades. I'd say gestalt is a super powered option where people really should have an understanding of the game before even attempting it. Next I'll just say that a "sword sage/shadowlord dracolich" really isn't the kind of opponent I'd ever even suggest throwing at an inexpereinced player.
Now while I say I'm not going to be much help WHY do you have all of those NPC class levels in a Warblade10//warrior2/expert2/Ranger2/Fighter4 build? Certainly there are better things you could do with those four levels.
Ok so, I'm a fairly novice d&d player. I know this and my build will reflect it. Not incredibly serious about min/maxing or optimization in general.
I know I'm not going to be any help here but just reading those lines I'd compare you situation to throwing a non-swimmer into the ocean miles away from any shore (much less a known shore) and telling them they are on their own. Maybe you aren't serious about min/max or optimization but to me it sure looks like the campaign you are in would require those things in spades. I'd say gestalt is a super powered option where people really should have an understanding of the game before even attempting it. Next I'll just say that a "sword sage/shadowlord dracolich" really isn't the kind of opponent I'd ever even suggest throwing at an inexpereinced player.
Now while I say I'm not going to be much help WHY do you have all of those NPC class levels in a Warblade10//warrior2/expert2/Ranger2/Fighter4 build? Certainly there are better things you could do with those four levels.
Exactly the type of post I asked not to have. I've made clear the build is not good. I took those classes because I didnt want the headaches of dealing with a multitude of different class abilities so I thought I'd get away with just having a plethora of feats. Sounded good at the time. It is now proving to be a bit weaker than originally thought. Gestalt is something my companion (who is the dm's wife) bugged for. The campaign was not originally intended for such and this new bbeg who has been brought to bear is in response to how easily we've dealt with everything else.
My companion's character is nasty. What she can do borders on rediculous. All I was hoping to have help with is what direction to head now to help me get back in the game a bit. Seeing as the campaign wasn't meant for gestalt I figured I was doing the dm a bit of a favor by just taking classes that granted me feats. It let me stay pretty much JUST a warblade but with many extra feats available. No matter how you cut it, I'm more powerful than the original base class which was warblade. Now I need to try and make up some ground between my partner and I. If I could get a response in that Direction rather than telling me how wrong my build is, as I already know this, It would be appreciated.
EDIT: If you have a suggestion as to how to rebuild the class, staying away from caster classes, I'm sure I could convince the dm to allow me a bit of leeway as he is well aware of the overshadowing being done by the other character. Warblade 11 on one side of the build is a must. That is being taken to 20. I am playing a sub race of dwarf that is entirely melee oriented. Diving magic is acceptable but they do not dabble int he arcane.
Exactly the type of post I asked not to have. I've made clear the build is not good. I took those classes because I didnt want the headaches of dealing with a multitude of different class abilities so I thought I'd get away with just having a plethora of feats. Sounded good at the time. It is now proving to be a bit weaker than originally thought. Gestalt is something my companion (who is the dm's wife) bugged for. The campaign was not originally intended for such and this new bbeg who has been brought to bear is in response to how easily we've dealt with everything else.
I wouldn't have attacked Steven about this. He's consistently one of the most accommodating and helpful writers on this forum.
Incidentally, the interplay between a few dozen feats will make the game more complex than a handful of simple spell abilities ever could.
My companion's character is nasty. What she can do borders on rediculous.All I was hoping to have help with is what direction to head now to help me get back in the game a bit. Seeing as the campaign wasn't meant for gestalt I figured I was doing the dm a bit of a favor by just taking classes that granted me feats. It let me stay pretty much JUST a warblade but with many extra feats available. No matter how you cut it, I'm more powerful than the original base class which was warblade. Now I need to try and make up some ground between my partner and I. If I could get a response in that Direction rather than telling me how wrong my build is, as I already know this, It would be appreciated.
EDIT: If you have a suggestion as to how to rebuild the class, staying away from caster classes, I'm sure I could convince the dm to allow me a bit of leeway as he is well aware of the overshadowing being done by the other character. Warblade 11 on one side of the build is a must. That is being taken to 20. I am playing a sub race of dwarf that is entirely melee oriented. Diving magic is acceptable but they do not dabble int he arcane.
Warblade // Crusader, adding fighter levels to the crusader to allow the crusader's stance timing to not suck and to accelerate when ubercharge feats come online. Tome of Battle multiclassing can be a bit tricky if you're not careful, but it's not unmanageable (neither is its gestalting, by the way, so long as you take it slow when you go through the building process). Later, look into a prestige class on one side, depending on which set of maneuvers you're enjoying more. I'd suggest Deepstone Sentinel as something uniquely dwarven.
I'm kind of busy on a paper at the moment and can't build a full character for you, but I would stick to purely WotC feats instead of third-party ones and just go from there.
Alternative: Warblade // Cloistered Cleric -based CoDzilla dip. This WILL be stronger, but it will also use some magic. Thankfully that magic is all one-shot set-up at the start of the day and you don't need to think about it too much as most of them aren't situational.
Just to clarify though it was in no way an attack on Steven. I appreciate the fact he even took the time to read my post. The downfalls of communicating in text I suppose my tone was misinterpreted. The point of my reply was that I do not need to be told my build sucks, I know this. Im asking the talented people here to help in making it suck less not tell me how many and what mistakes I made originally is all.
It sounds like your the newbie getting throw in with the powergamer and the two don't always mix will as your post is showing.
EDIT: If you have a suggestion as to how to rebuild the class, staying away from caster classes, I'm sure I could convince the dm to allow me a bit of leeway as he is well aware of the overshadowing being done by the other character. Warblade 11 on one side of the build is a must. That is being taken to 20. I am playing a sub race of dwarf that is entirely melee oriented. Diving magic is acceptable but they do not dabble int he arcane.
Pure Fighter would be more feats although having the couple levels of Ranger may not be bad. I wonder why you wouldn't have used Rogue instead of Expert. Crusader could be interesting but as Tempest mentions initiator level may get to be difficult.
Edit: I never said your build sucks. I see a full Warblade on one side of the gestalt which tells me it should be good at something and I never made any evaluations based on the feats/abilities listed. Now when I asked about the NPC levels that did imply there is an area that could easily be improved upon. In most things even the best in the world need critical advice if they want to get better.
I'll just note that I believe there is a lot of room between the supreme optimization min/maxing that some board member think is REQUIRED for a character and the "why would you do that?" level which includes adding NPC classes in a build. Throwing NPC levels into a gestalt build is really telling me that you have no business with such a build which is really the DMs fault more than your own. Like I said in my situation evaluation you are getting thrown off the deep end and it really shows when you are asking for help with gestalt character who has NPC levels.
It sounds like your the newbie getting throw in with the powergamer and the two don't always mix will as your post is showing.EDIT: If you have a suggestion as to how to rebuild the class, staying away from caster classes, I'm sure I could convince the dm to allow me a bit of leeway as he is well aware of the overshadowing being done by the other character. Warblade 11 on one side of the build is a must. That is being taken to 20. I am playing a sub race of dwarf that is entirely melee oriented. Diving magic is acceptable but they do not dabble int he arcane.
Pure Fighter would be more feats although having the couple levels of Ranger may not be bad. I wonder why you wouldn't have used Rogue instead of Expert. Crusader could be interesting but as Tempest mentions initiator level may get to be difficult.
Edit: I never said your build sucks. I see a full Warblade on one side of the gestalt which tells me it should be good at something and I never made any evaluations based on the feats/abilities listed. Now when I asked about the NPC levels that did imply there is an area that could easily be improved upon. In most things even the best in the world need critical advice if they want to get better.
Oh I absolutely need advice, no question about that. The 'NPC' classes are the unearthed arcana versions. Therefore I get feats from every level of them. Warrior feats at 1 and 2. Expert feats at 1 and 2. Expert also allowed me to chose 10 class skills. Fighter gave me feats at 1 and 2. Ranger gave me feats at 1 and 2 because wild emp was allowed to be subbed out and I chose a variant list of combat style feats that allowed me to pick up cleave.
The biggest reason I went this route is because all I wanted to do was play a warblade. I didnt want to muddle up the build with multiclassing all over. I wanted to avoid casting which complimented the sub race of dwarf I am playing(dm made). The other player in the game, wife of the DM, pressured him to allow gestalt. For the first 7-8 levels I didnt notice much difference between us. Now he is throwing things in that are to be challenging to her and I'm getting a bit left behind. The game is fantastic, the dm weaves an amazing tale. I think whats happening now is a bit of his frustration with her destroying encounters in a single round over the last 3 levels. He is tweaking everything and its going to result in the guy who didnt want to gestalt(me) but went along with it to keep the other player happy, and not really realizing what shed be able to accomplish, getting left behind.
Bottom line: Is the build salvageable over the next 10 or so levels? If not, are their any sensible ways I can stay competitive and useful on the non warblade side without going into caster classes?
I am liking the crusader idea. It would have been nice to just start that way to begin with. Warblade/Crusader. Even if I only swap 2 levels as originally specified by the dm it would give me an ini level 7 on the crusader side which seems pretty useful. I'd lose a number of feats, but that would be an easy fix. I had my weapon enchanted with Wrathful Healing in the last game so I'm thinking I can do away with all of the roll with it feats. That opens up 3 right there... I also have the DM approval to rewrite a class like 'Eternal Blade', using the abilities of the class but I have to flavor it to fit a dwarf. Like...ancestral axe or some such.'
The point of gestalt is to broaden your characters abilities. Warblade//fighter is seriously redundant and actually, I don't know that you get much techincally. Your warblade bonus feats are "As a fighter" and I don't think would stack...
Sticking in your "Can only swap 2 levels" i'd recomend dropping 2 of your fighter levels for Barbarian 1/some sort of prestige class 1. Bear Warrior would be an interesting choice, but it might also be a good time to bring in Kensai or something. (asking for a house rule on alignment to be either a lawful barbarian or chaotic kensai). Occult Slayer is also a favorite of mine, and fits your theme nicely.
If your DM is cool letting fighter/warblade stack for bonus feats swap the two warrior levels for barbarian/prestige class.
* Note favored enemy arcane caster is a variant option for rangers that is awesome, and fits the flavor. It clarifies that it applies to anything with an SLA.
If you can swap as many levels as you want, consider Warblade 20//Rogue 20 for a more varied and capable character. You can now deal with any traps, get a nice bonus to combat, and get boat loads of skill points.
Feat Choices. I'm just going to let you know which ones suck, and maybe suggest some good ones instead. Not sure how many you can change.
Suck - Toughness, Cleave, Improved Crit
Consider - Extra Rage (If you get that barb level), Leap Attack, Improved trip (and get a reach weapon. I assume your dex is decent because you took combat reflexes), Shock Trooper.
Note - The weapon focus line generally isn't worth it, but you have loads of feats, so it may be alright if you've got room.
Feats:
1) Power Attack
2) Improved Bullrush*
3) Combat Reflexes*, Combat Reflexes
4) Improved Trip*
5) Warblade Bonus Feat
6) Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)
7) Shock Trooper* (Complete Warrior)
9) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Warblade bonus feat
Oh I absolutely need advice, no question about that. The 'NPC' classes are the unearthed arcana versions. Therefore I get feats from every level of them. Warrior feats at 1 and 2. Expert feats at 1 and 2. Expert also allowed me to chose 10 class skills. Fighter gave me feats at 1 and 2. Ranger gave me feats at 1 and 2 because wild emp was allowed to be subbed out and I chose a variant list of combat style feats that allowed me to pick up cleave.
Now this is what I was looking for when I asked why. I know I use the terms "warrior, arcanist, and rarely divine caster" it stub builds as place holders but when I looked at your stub build I go the the actual DMG "classes" with those names.At the very least try to replace your npc classes, even with something like fighter or rogue, since they aren't ment to reflect a PC but more of random npcs. If your okay with the idea of divine might I suggest adding some cleric in (even one level) if that's not kosher then fighter is a good pick (for feats) and ranger (as was pointed out) might I ask for your stats since I have an idea brewing?
Through various wondrous items, a tome or two, racial stats of this DM made dwarf sub race, current stat line is as follows:
STR: 28
DEX: 20
CON: 24
INT: 16
WIS: 12
CHR: 8
Since it seems like you are charging a lot I would get quick draw and hurling charge. As well I would get into deep warden PRC as fast as I could the con to AC is not a huge jump but 2 points just might help save you.
None of those will actually help.
- Quickdraw is worthless - you can get its effect through a Crystal of Return, and anything that it's a prerequisite for is a waste in almost every single case (I can think of a few corner cases, almost all using Master Thrower, but these are toy builds, nothing serious.)
- Hurling Charge is a waste. It requires a second weapon (expensive), which you throw creatively disarm yourself of (using Dexterity, unless you also spend feats on Brutal Throw). This means that you're forced to spread your ability scores and wealth around quite a lot more than you would be otherwise.
- Similarly, real damage comes from Power Attack and two-handers. Try to get those to work with thrown weapons some time and you'll see the problem.
- The only benefit Hurling Charge really gives is an extra attack on a charge, which you can get from Pounce already, which is pretty easy to get. Bonus points if you're using Complete Cheeseball's Barbarian dip, which can also be used to get Whirling Frenzy (much better than Hurling Charge on its own, and here it's combined with Pounce.)
- Deepwarden is EXPENSIVE to get into and this build isn't designed to make good use of it. Also, Stone Warden is restricted by armor.
- 2 AC is meaningless, particularly after you're using Shock Trooper. The best way to defend against this would be to employ non-AC defenses, such as Wall of Blades or stacked miss chances through equipment.
- An example of how powerful miss chances can be: I once played a character whose AC never topped 11. He was harder to hit than a hypothetical character with infinite AC. Why? Miss chances. Infinite AC is still hit on a 20, or 5% of the time. You can reach 5.6% of the time with just two spells (Mirror Image and Displacement) and there's others out there as well.
This does bring up a very interesting point however. Gestalt Bloodstorm Blade's actually pretty friggin' cool.
I was actually looking at this PRC. Giving me some range would be a good thing.
Also it was mentioned that the feats Cleave, Toughness, and Improved Crit are bad. Toughness was taken as a pre req and I completely agree that by itself is trash. I needed it for Roll with it however, and that feat has my DR sitting at -/9 at the moment, combined with my adamantine armor. The improved crit can be replaced with Keen, but my weapon is already a +5 equivalent, being a +2 Great axe with wrathful healing. Seeing as the weapon has the attributes of folded and serrated, giving it a 19-20 crit with X4 multiplier (minotaur great hammer), is improved crit really that bad? I mean if I crit on a charge using ruby nightmare blade isn't a 17-20 chance to do X6 damage worth while? Which leads to cleave. Hitting that hard has opened up countless times for Cleave use, although that is not the reason I took the feat. The reason was that I already had power attack and the ranger combat style I chose was from Pathfinder and it was really the only thing worth taking at that level.
The Dm has AGREED to completely let me rebuild the non warblade side of my class and re-do my feats. He does ask that I continue to stay away from any caster classes if possible, because if I am suddenly an 11th level caster of some sort then the story wise it would be hard to justify. Since the 11th level was gained last game, I can take a caster level for that. He is trying to be as accomodating as he can, but neither of us want to fudge a bunch of details to have things make sense with whats happened so far. This character has been played since level 1, their has been a lot of development.
He has gone as far as to tell me he'd love to start a new game lol. He is not liking his wifes character at all...but its his wife, thats not a fight I'd want to have =P.
Also, as far as things like Pounce... One of the maneuvers I selected was Pouncing Charge but I guess a 1 level barbarian dip to replace that and open up a maneuver slot might not be so bad. I do agree with the statement of Complete Cheesy though. On the other hand, the character is very volatile personality wise and every charge is made with a mad frothing at the mouth war cry... so I guess it would fit the bill.
Feat wise, you'll have
1 Power Attack
2F Cleave
3 Point Blank Shot
3F Improved Bull Rush
5WB Improved Initiative
6 Leap Attack
8F* Shock Trooper
9 Stormguard Warrior
9WB Ironheart Aura
This of course is just an example but I feel it's a better feat selection than what you've got going now and it's leading into you getting Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit in the near future.
You'll want Pounce of course and Whirling Frenzy option as well if you want to go with that.
In terms of maneuvers, you'll want to pick some good Iron Heart ones of course (focus on the single target maneuvers that will work with the BSB; the spins aren't ideal here), along with the ubiquitous Wall of Blades (and possibly Iron Heart Surge). However, DEFINITELY look into White Raven - one of the good charges (open with Battle Leader's and upgrade as necessary), Leading the Charge, and White Raven Tactics are all you really need to bring a LOT of oomph to the table, particularly if you're no longer competing with your partner for damage (rather, she'll relish your turn, since you can basically say "You go again!"). If space permits, and depending on your skills, a Diamond Mind counter or two would not go amiss.
You could also look into a con build using some of the tricks Tempest_Stormwind used on his build Captain Constitution, since you have a good con, and are a dwarf. That build you can find in his sig and i beleie it is still relevant for a character that is gestalting since it is more SAD based.
That's Andarious' build; I'm merely showcasing it. But yes, it's in my sig, along with several others. No gestalts except one intended as an iconic antagonist though (i.e. a gestalt villain can challenge nongestalt PCs and keep them guessing).