So our DM said we could take any race and class out of phb and campaign setting.
Thats a bit difficult I think since I want to play a rouge that does a good amount of dmg.
We are lvl 5 atm so I need your help with building up a rogue.
Maybe our dm would allow me the swashbuckler dip if I could explain why.
Can u plz help me?
Greets so far Steffanie
Maybe our dm would allow me the swashbuckler dip if I could explain why.
"I saw some swash that needed buckling."
Rogue2/Swashbuckler3/Roguex
Feats: Daring Outlaw, Craven
Take the Penetrating Strike ACF
"I saw some swash that needed buckling."
Rogue2/Swashbuckler3/Roguex
Feats: Daring Outlaw, Craven
Take the Penetrating Strike ACF
Xaxa funny joke. ;)
Thy for your reply but those feats are in CR and CS books. Which I am not allowed to use I think or I have to ask my dm.
And where is the Penetrating Strike Feat?? in?
And should I go with two weapon fighting oder stay on solo rapier?
Greets Steffanie
This would allow you to use Kukris, meaning that you could get use out of Telling Blow.
Maximize Use Magic Device, try to find wands or scrolls of grave / golem strike.
Personally, I found myself tumbling past the fighter and the enemy he's engaging into a flanking position at the start of most fights, so Acrobatic... whichever it was, from Player's Handbook 2, which gives you +6 to hit after tumbling past an opponent, might be a good choice.
Of course, back then, we thought a natural 1 stopped attacks and that power attack was worthless.
PenStrike is an alternate class feature(ACF) from i think dungeon scape, lets you sneak attack undead and such for half the dice.
Thx but I think my DM will only allow the "Mainstream Books".
Two Weapon Fighting is the staple of a damage rogue build. Swash dip or Factotum dip is a good idea. 2 levels of Ranger would give TWF for free, too, as well as martial weapon proficiency.
This would allow you to use Kukris, meaning that you could get use out of Telling Blow.
Maximize Use Magic Device, try to find wands or scrolls of grave / golem strike.
Personally, I found myself tumbling past the fighter and the enemy he's engaging into a flanking position at the start of most fights, so Acrobatic... whichever it was, from Player's Handbook 2, which gives you +6 to hit after tumbling past an opponent, might be a good choice.
Thx for your advice that sounds really good. I just saw that the Factotum is from Dungeonscape too.
I think I try to confince my DM that I can use the Complete Warrior or Scoundrel books too and the PHB2 since that is "Mainstream" too.
I'm playing a Rogue 7/Dread Commando 5 and it's working fantastic. I chose to go TWF with a spear and unarmed strikes and haven't looked back since. Look into getting Kyton Armor, a Rogue's vest and Bracers of Murder as well as the Deadly Precision weapon enhancement and see if your DM will let you get a set of Bracers of The Hunter made into gloves for a total +3D6 to Sneak Attack, the ability to reroll 1s and a some bonuses to hit for flanking as well as sneaking and hiding.
Hehe nice but the most stuff that you mentioned I've never heard before ;D
But I will try too look up those too, but I dont have the Heros of Battle book.
Can u tell me plz where I can find those items you mentioned?
A common tactic is a mid game one-dip of swordsage for mobility maneuvers and assassin's stance which adds considerable damage. Tell me more about the allowed sources list, and the nature and intent of your GM. What power level is the campaign, what part of FR, which books in addition to the campaign setting, etc. Basically, a full run-down of the why-and-how of the game.
Is swordsage from the tome of battle?
So I searched for the mail from my GM again and the books he mentioned we can choose class, race and feats were:
PHB1, Forgotten Realms Campgain Setting, Magic of Faerun and Faiths & Pantheons.
For the rest he said we had to talk about it. I think he will give his ok if the build isnt overpowered and not to freaked out like 5 classes in one build or something like that. And I think if I stick to the books that are not (dont know how to say that) totally off the hook and off the campaign setting he will probably allow it.
Umm dont know what power lvl our campaign is. :/
And the part of the FR were at the beginning shadowdale but then we found a spelljammer and took off into space.
It should be noted, that some unenlightened DMs consider a straight Rogue flanking to be overpowered, so much depends on the group. Flank, TWF, hit is plenty. Also, learn what your skills can do, and what the synergies are. My DM initially thought my rogue was overpowered with it's single-wielded +1 Shocking Rapier and 6 sneak attack dice at level 11. While rest of the group were at level 16+.
Of course, back then, we thought a natural 1 stopped attacks and that power attack was worthless.
Atm our fighters are the ones who deal the major dmg. One of them took the whole focus und spec feat stuff and he is dishing out a good amount of dmg with his great sword.
So after your posts and some considerations here is my first raw build:
Race: Stronhearted Halfling (Cause of bonus feat and stats)
Stats: Plenty Dex Int and Con. Str and Wis average. Cha low.
Classes:
Rogue 1
Fighter/Ranger 2
Swashbuckler 3?
Rogue X?
Feats: TWF, Telling Blow, Weapon Focus, Combat Expertize/Feint?
Thank you all for your kind help,
Greets Steffanie
Get TWF and Telling blow no earlier than third level, since your BAB will be low. If you go fighter, get WF, if that is your choice, at level 2, since it's most useful at low levels. Combat Expertise is unneeded except as a prerequisite, in my opinion, as Defensive Fighting with 5 ranks in tumble will give you -4 atk/+3 AC. Combat Reflexes, however, is very nice, when you get it to work.
get VEXING FLANKER at level 1, if possible. It gives you +4 instead of +2 to hit while flanking, which is where you should be, in combat. nothing is more frustrating in Melee than missing. (except, not getting to act at all! )
A simple combat reflexes trick:
1. in stealth, move behind a nice group of melee opponents.
2. most of the time, those opponents shall charge your party's fighters on their turn- thus leaving your threatened area! You get an attack of opportunity against each and every one of them.
3. Since they declared their actions, they are now a charge distance away from you, and won't be hitting you.
To Boost your damage output:
Taking 4 levels of Swashbuckler allows you to get up to +16 BAB, which allows for a full four attacks at level 20. Daring Outlaw gives you full Sneak Attack Dice. Swashbuckler also gives Insightful Strike, which adds Int Bonus to damage. This also gives you handy Grace and Dodge bonuses.
The Invisible Blade gives 3d6 Dagger Sneak Attack in 5 levels and also gives full BAB for those levels, making that a good alternate choice as well. It also gets Int to AC.
Swordsage gives access to all kinds of goodness, including the Assassin's Stance and access to the Shadow Blade Feat (dex to damage as long as you are in a Shadow Hand Stance, which Assassin's is and are wielding a Shadow Hand preferred weapon, which Daggers are). If you take 2 levels of it you also get Wis to AC.
By taking three levels of Scout, you get access to the Swift Ambusher Feat, which allows Rogue levels to stack with Scout levels for Skirmish dice. Scout 3/Rogue 17 gives you a Skirmish of 5d6/5AC with a Sneak Attack of 9d6. Using the Acrobatic Backstab Skill Trick (when you tumble through someone's square, you can Sneak Attack them) and Improved Skirmish (+2d6/+2AC when you move at least 20 feet in a round), you can tumble through someone and hit them with a single attack for +16d6 with a significant AC bonus to boot. Two-Weapon Pounce can allow you to double this up.
Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks, which translates to more damage.
The Craven feat lets you apply +Your Level damage on any Sneak Attack.
To Guarantee Sneak Attacks:
Flanking is the easiest way. You can improve this with enough levels of Swashbuckler (Improved flanking for +4 to hit). The Island of Blades Swordsage Stance lets you flank by just having an ally adjacent to a foe, rather than on the opposite side. The Distracting Ember Swordsage Maneuver grants you automatic Flanking for a turn.
Acrobatic Backstab lets you Sneak Attack when you tumble through someone, but that only applies to a single attack, making it not worthwhile unless you're running the Swift Ambusher build.
Invisible Blade gets the ability to Feint as a Free Action once per round.
The Shadow Blade prestige class only gets Sudden Strike dice, but amongst its abilities is a swift action that makes his melee attack hit them without their Dex bonus.
Nagle Charge and Nagle Throw from the Planar Handbook let you hit a target without his dex, but it only works once per target and requires you either Charge or Throw. (Charge is good for Swift Ambusher)
Telling Blow lets you apply Sneak Attack and Skirmish dice when you Crit, which can be powerful when combined with an Improved Critical or Keen Edge Kukri (threat range 15-20).
If you want, look at my Invisible Blade build I posted on this forum last week. It combines a lot of these things into one build.
What do you think of that kind of build?
I made up that start:
Race: Stronghearted Halfling
1: Rogue EWP(Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise
2: Fighter Combat Reflexes
3: Fighter Daring Outlaw, TWF
4: Swashbuckler Class Feat (Weapon Finess)
5: Swashbuckler Class Feat (Grace +1)
6: Swashbuckler Improved Trip, Class Feat (Insightfull Strike)
7: Rogue ??
8: Rogue ??
X: Rogue ??
Or should it be
Race: Stronghearted Halfling
1: Rogue EWP(Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise
2: Fighter Combat Reflexes
3: Swashbuckler Daring Outlaw, Class Feat (Weapon Finess)
4: Fighter TWF
5: Swashbuckler Class Feat (Grace +1)
6: Swashbuckler Improved Trip, Class Feat (Insightfull Strike)
7: Rogue ??
8: Rogue ??
X: Rogue ??
So what do you think.
Greets steffanie
EDIT: Just read that you dont provoke aoo when using spiked chain so the improved trip feat is not really nessecary besides the +4 bonus on trip attempts. Mb taking telling blow instead of improved trip?
If you can indeed take Daring Outlaw, just stick to Rogue/Swashbuckler. No need to get all complicated about it.
Hm but with 2 lvls of fighter I could get more bab and 2 feats or isnt that worth 2 lvls?
EDIT;
So lets see if that works. I swith stronghearted halfling for human to avoid the small size when tripping medium opponents. And I need 2 lvl fighter to get the two bonus feats.
The feats that I need are: EWP SpikedChain, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip, Daring Outlaw, Combat Reflexes -> Expert Tactician. That would be the core feats that I would need.
So for example I my group attacks a group of humanoids. I could either use the reach of my spiked chain to attack and use the reach as advantage do dmg with SA and Insightfull Strike as long as the opponent is flanked. Or I could use the Spiked Chain to trip the opponent, attack him right again thanks to improved trip and than attack him again thanks to expert tactician. All with SA and Insightfull strike.
And later if I get TWF and Amor Spikes I could even get more attacks. Am I correct so far?
Greets Steffanie
:P
Help my plz I got only 4 days left till we play again.
Greets Steffanie
this one again. But me time is running out. :/Hm but with 2 lvls of fighter I could get more bab and 2 feats or isnt that worth 2 lvls?
EDIT;
So lets see if that works. I swith stronghearted halfling for human to avoid the small size when tripping medium opponents. And I need 2 lvl fighter to get the two bonus feats.
The feats that I need are: EWP SpikedChain, Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip, Daring Outlaw, Combat Reflexes -> Expert Tactician. That would be the core feats that I would need.
So for example I my group attacks a group of humanoids. I could either use the reach of my spiked chain to attack and use the reach as advantage do dmg with SA and Insightfull Strike as long as the opponent is flanked. Or I could use the Spiked Chain to trip the opponent, attack him right again thanks to improved trip and than attack him again thanks to expert tactician. All with SA and Insightfull strike.
And later if I get TWF and Amor Spikes I could even get more attacks. Am I correct so far?
Greets Steffanie
-> Trip and then SA possible?
I like the 2nd set better, as it nets finesse earlier, and few things are more frustrating than missing.
To elaborate, from a flanking position, you can go 2hw reach weapon trip -> free attack -> primary attacks with 2h weapon -> 5ft step closer -> off-hand attacks with armor spikes / unarmed / whatever.
I am not certain if you can switch to TWF mode with spiked chain after using it in 2H mode, but I'm quite certain you can't.
although reach+2hf+twf at close range may be otherwise inaccessible
You can TWF with Spiked armor.
Yes. However, I am unsure of your need for spiked chain, outside the versatility of being able to attack both close and at reach, plus being able to switch between twf and 2hf... although reach+2hf+twf at close range may be otherwise inaccessible.... *shrug*
I like the 2nd set better, as it nets finesse earlier, and few things are more frustrating than missing.
To elaborate, from a flanking position, you can go 2hw reach weapon trip -> free attack -> primary attacks with 2h weapon -> 5ft step closer -> off-hand attacks with armor spikes / unarmed / whatever.
I am not certain if you can switch to TWF mode with spiked chain after using it in 2H mode, but I'm quite certain you can't.
Hm I thought it would be a good way to deny the dex bonus to my enemy as an alternative to flanking.
To elaborate, from a flanking position, you can go 2hw reach weapon trip -> free attack -> primary attacks with 2h weapon -> 5ft step closer -> off-hand attacks with armor spikes / unarmed / whatever.
Yes that was the way I wanted to act. I could deal a good amount of dmg and help my meele mates attacking the prone target.
I saw in some other thread that someone used a greatsword and armorspikes with his rogue.
You can TWF with Spiked armor.
And can I do TWF with Spiked Chain and Spiked armor? ;)
Yes, that was what I was saying.
Ok thank you I will try and build my final setup.
....
To elaborate, from a flanking position, you can go 2hw reach weapon trip -> free attack -> primary attacks with 2h weapon -> 5ft step closer -> off-hand attacks with armor spikes / unarmed / whatever.....
The thing was that I thought I could sneak attack right at the prone target... -_-
But as I read so far a prone target is not denied his dex so it is no a target for sneak attacks.
I am still a bit slow or unexpierienced in such things but...
I could like you discribed first trip the target -> attack it once -> make a 5ft step to flank? and get the +2 bonus on hit plus sneak attack and insightfull strike AND? the +4 to hit from my target being prone? -> and my attack with the spiked armor from TWF?
Is that all possible? ;D
SteffiK, you definitely need a flanking position to get your extra damage int. Certainly, if you're a mere 5ft. step away from flanking position, you can and should go there, but the point I was making was that you can trip and hit at range, but your TWF attacks won't reach from there, so you need to take a 5ft step to get closer, to get those in.
Stats rolled:
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 17
Wis: 9
Cha: 8
Race: Human male
Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Rogue15
Lvl(*=Bonus Feat,#=Bonus Stat)
1*: Rogue1 SA +1d6, trapfinding, *EWP(Spiked Chain), Combat Exptertise
2: Rogue2 Evasion
3*: Rogue3 SA +2d6, trap sense +1, Imp. Trip
4#: Swash1 Weapon Finesse, #+Int
5: Swash2 Grace 1
6*: Swash3 Insightful strike, Daring Outlaw
7: Fighter1 TWF
8#: Fighter2 Imp TWF, #+Wis
9*: Rogue4 Uncanny dodge, Combat Reflexes
10: Rogue X ... with feats like(Telling Blow, Greater TWF, ...???) and bonus stats +dex....
or... I switch the Fighter2 with Ranger2 loosing a feat but gaining things like track and favored enemy and twf for free.
Thx in advance for your help. ;)
Greets Steffanie
Ftr 2 vs. Ranger 2... In every situation, except when you really need the feats, you should go with Ranger - in PF it has the same HD, but retains better skills.
Improved TWF is not worth it, IMO, and certainly no high priority. You can pick that up at level 15 or something, when you have all the other feats you want.
Also, FE: Undead or Constructs will give you a bit more oomph vs. those... although in PF, you can Sneak Attack anything that has discernable anatomy - Joints, for an example. Only incorporeal, oozes and elementals are immune to SA.... basically, type generally doesn't allow a blanket immunity.
I'd go with more Swashbuckler and less Rogue.
The Rogue is more fitting with my concept of the hero being a "Dirrrrty Harry" typo charakter.
But could you tell me how much more Swashbuckler I should take and what I should reach?
I think we're all forgetting the hidden gem that is Swashbuckler 4, Seduction...
Look above, seduction sounds okay but it would fit more to a female char. And since mine will be male and more the IbeatyoutoabloodypulbifyoudonttellmethingsIwanttoknow type seduction is not the option I would choose.
But thanks for your link I didnt know that one yet.
I disagree with true_shinken, mainly due to Rogue Talents.
Ftr 2 vs. Ranger 2... In every situation, except when you really need the feats, you should go with Ranger - in PF it has the same HD, but retains better skills.
Improved TWF is not worth it, IMO, and certainly no high priority. You can pick that up at level 15 or something, when you have all the other feats you want.
Also, FE: Undead or Constructs will give you a bit more oomph vs. those... although in PF, you can Sneak Attack anything that has discernable anatomy - Joints, for an example. Only incorporeal, oozes and elementals are immune to SA.... basically, type generally doesn't allow a blanket immunity.
PF is Pathfinder???
FE Undead would make sence. I think I will take that, PE evil would be nice and fitting to the dirty harry style. But thats not on the list. :/
I think I will swap Fighter with Ranger, is there some kind of Urban Ranger?
Like a headhunter?
Greets and many thanks so far.
Steffanie
The Rogue is more fitting with my concept of the hero being a "Dirrrrty Harry" typo charakter.
Where on this picture is the spiked chain :D ?
I miss at least the "investigator" feat, 10 grayguard levels and a 50 charges draining blasterficer to come close to Clint.
Tireless and troll-blooded are included.
If you want to be "Dirty Harry" type it will be a different kind of optimization than "good damage". I doubt it will include spiked chains and armor spikes.
Or did I miss a fashion show with Clint?
Blasphemic, Dirty Harry as a swashbuckler, I find.
To contribute, do you use the 3.0 version of "expert tactician"? The 3.5 one does not grant an attack, afaik.
I prefer the 3.5 version: +2 circumstance bonus to damage and hit to any target you hit with an AoO for 1 round - for the entire party.
To make a related quote: "Most circumstance bonuses stack", so 'nouth said...
I agree on the swashbuckler one. Roge 3-4. I'd drop fighter.
Or, if you want to do real damage on one attack mostly, there was a post suggesting skirmish + rogue:
Swashbuckler 3, Scout 3-4, Rogue X having swift ambusher to advance skirmish with rogue levels.
I'd take any of these "dual-class-advance-both-partly" feats only, if I advance the site that benefits most:
Swashbuckler getts sneak attack - better than rogue getting dodge bonus,
or (to pick the example from the first page of this thread)
Rogue getting skirmish - better than scout getting, uhm, nothing.
As Mick put it: You can't always get what you want.
In the end it is your character - the more advice you are getting, the more choices there will be. The decision is yours.
Whatever I wrote does not make any sense - You figured that, hopefully.
If so, why did I post?
I wanted to ask one question and I will put it into 4 words:
Deutschsprachige Schweiz // Suisse francophone ?
Bloodhound (CA) or Justicar (CW) are similar to this. You also have the Urban Ranger in Unearthed Arcana.
If you want to be a Barbarian and a Monk go for the feat "Ordered Chaos" in Fiendish Codex 1.
You could also go Kinslayer PrC from Drow of the Underdark which gives Rage.
Hope this helps
I miss at least the "investigator" feat, 10 grayguard levels and a 50 charges draining blasterficer to come close to Clint.
Tireless and troll-blooded are included.
Yeah, I recall that when Dirty Harry's wounds spontaneously closed --- oh wait.
No. Fandom aside, the character's status as a Mortal Badass puts him strictly into level 6-10 category. Excessive number of Hero Spots = hit points.
As for those advocating swashbuckler --- keep in mind, a Pathfinder Rogue effectively gets a free feat at every even level. For me, at least, that makes the slightly worse BAB so worth it.
[IMG]removed/IMG
Where on this picture is the spiked chain :D ?
I miss at least the "investigator" feat, 10 grayguard levels and a 50 charges draining blasterficer to come close to Clint.
Tireless and troll-blooded are included.
If you want to be "Dirty Harry" type it will be a different kind of optimization than "good damage". I doubt it will include spiked chains and armor spikes.
Or did I miss a fashion show with Clint?
Blasphemic, Dirty Harry as a swashbuckler, I find.
To contribute, do you use the 3.0 version of "expert tactician"? The 3.5 one does not grant an attack, afaik.
I prefer the 3.5 version: +2 circumstance bonus to damage and hit to any target you hit with an AoO for 1 round - for the entire party.
To make a related quote: "Most circumstance bonuses stack", so 'nouth said...
I agree on the swashbuckler one. Roge 3-4. I'd drop fighter.
Or, if you want to do real damage on one attack mostly, there was a post suggesting skirmish + rogue:
Swashbuckler 3, Scout 3-4, Rogue X having swift ambusher to advance skirmish with rogue levels.
I'd take any of these "dual-class-advance-both-partly" feats only, if I advance the site that benefits most:
Swashbuckler getts sneak attack - better than rogue getting dodge bonus,
or (to pick the example from the first page of this thread)
Rogue getting skirmish - better than scout getting, uhm, nothing.
As Mick put it: You can't always get what you want.
In the end it is your character - the more advice you are getting, the more choices there will be. The decision is yours.
Whatever I wrote does not make any sense - You figured that, hopefully.
If so, why did I post?
I wanted to ask one question and I will put it into 4 words:
Deutschsprachige Schweiz // Suisse francophone ?
Deutschsprachige Schweiz (Aargau)
And I dont want to copy the one and only Harry I want to play the type of char that harry is in my opinion. He is good but not everytime lawfull since he has to be as dirty as his prey or enemys.
Like a head Hunter?
Bloodhound (CA) or Justicar (CW) are similar to this. You also have the Urban Ranger in Unearthed Arcana.
If you want to be a Barbarian and a Monk go for the feat "Ordered Chaos" in Fiendish Codex 1.
You could also go Kinslayer PrC from Drow of the Underdark which gives Rage.
Hope this helps
Bloodhound and Justicar looks nice but Justicar needs to be lawfull. And I was aiming for CG. I have to take a look at Urban Ranger. Thx in advance.
Yeah, I recall that when Dirty Harry's wounds spontaneously closed --- oh wait.
No. Fandom aside, the character's status as a Mortal Badass puts him strictly into level 6-10 category. Excessive number of Hero Spots = hit points.
As for those advocating swashbuckler --- keep in mind, a Pathfinder Rogue effectively gets a free feat at every even level. For me, at least, that makes the slightly worse BAB so worth it.
Hm ok and where can I find that Pathfinder Rogue? Which book I mean.
Greets and thx Steffi