Hi folks, the idea is to create a tank with NO magic items, and no classes with arcane or divine spells, anything else, supernatural, spell-like, incarnum, is available.
At the moment (Constant updates):
Race: Dragonborn Water Orc (Str +4, Con +4, Des -2, Int -2, Cha -2, Wis -2) Open to more ideas, must be a Medium Humanoid with 0 LA, (Something with good Con or NA modifier)
Classes: Crusader 4/ Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Incarnate 2/Hellreaver 2, open to more ideas... (We start at lvl 10)
Items:
Armor: Heavy Plate (+9 AC)
Shield: Steel Tower Shield (+4 AC)
Second Shield: Steel Shield (+2 AC)
Weapon: Something for range tripping, open to any ideas...
For the remaining items I'm open to any ideas, remember, no magic items...
Feats:
Improved Trip (from Barbarian)
Power Attack
Open to any ideas...
Available sources, any 3.0 or 3.5 handbook.
And I would say go for a warblade/crusader build. Just get Tome of Battle, and use that. Are you okay with Incarnum? That can substitute for magic if you want, and Incarnum abilities can work well... but your statement on that wasn't clear. Don't focus on exotic weapons (with certain notable exceptions...), exotic shields, or exotic armor at all. Focus on maneuvers and feats that improve your existing class features (which means ignore fighter except as a dip).
Okay, you do realize that this concept is NOT well supported by D&D rules, which assume you have access to abilities that can only be obtained by magical items at certain levels? And you realize that AC is only one of many, many, many ways in which you can be attacked, and in order to tank, you probably want to be able to have high defenses in non AC things, AND be a credible threat that is hard to ignore, which is difficult to do with NO access to magic?
And I would say go for a warblade/crusader build. Just get Tome of Battle, and use that. Are you okay with Incarnum? That can substitute for magic if you want, and Incarnum abilities can work well... but your statement on that wasn't clear. Don't focus on exotic weapons, exotic shields, or exotic armor at all. Focus on maneuvers and feats that improve your existing class features (which means ignore fighter except as a dip).
Just no magic items, or arcane/divine spells...
EDIT: I've edited the main thread for a better understanding...
EDIT 2: I think that there are ways to obtain non-AC defenses with no "spells" or magic items... there aren't supernatural, spell-like or incarnum effects to obtain that ¿?
That being said, there are few things to 'focus' on - shields and flanking. IF there are other players in the group intending to play an armored warrior, you can get quite a bit of benefit from taking feats which support cooperative flanking and shield use. ( Check PHB2 and Heroes of Battle. )
*edit* if no ToB, isnt' Gatling Chaingun Tripper pretty much this?
Anyway, here are some handbooks for you to read. They talk about most of the classes that I would suggest for doing this sort of thing:
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
If it helps here's a link to a half finished character I was experimenting with in google docs awhile back (All of his immunities are gained by level 10): docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1sFCash...
...Uhhh, that uses generic warrior in a game with a normal barbarian... which is really, really, really, not encouraged, since most DM's will ban that, and the rules say you can't do that..
If it helps here's a link to a half finished character I was experimenting with in google docs awhile back (All of his immunities are gained by level 10): docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1sFCash...
...Uhhh, that uses generic warrior in a game with a normal barbarian... which is really, really, really, not encouraged, since most DM's will ban that, and the rules say you can't do that..
The rules say it is not reccomended, not that it is illegal.
Edit: Also, without getting into the debate about what "most" DMs allow, the build works within the constraints given by the OP at the time of posting.
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
Of course the specific handbooks to these classes are these:
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
Of course, since Crusader has better hit dice and skills, that would probably be your first class. They also mention incarnate 'dip' as the main way to go, and people are talking about the Hellreaver class from Fiendish Codex II. I don't know how to do a build for this, precisely, as neither of these three classes are my strong suit... but I would think with that thread, a guide to each of the base classes, a few interesting web enhancements, and Fiendesh Codex II, you might end up with something useful. Definitely consider some kind of reach weapon as your main way of fighting though!
Yea, Incarnate/Crusader/Hellreaver looks AWESOME.
You could go for incarnate 4 / crusader 6. That allows you to invest 3 essentia into a soulmeld and get up to crown, hands, and feet for chakra binds. If you take expanded soulmeld capacity, you can put 4 essentia into therapeutic mantle for 10 points of healing on every attack with martial spirit.
If you take crusader after incarnate with this distribution, the 5 maneuvers you select at the 1st level of crusader can be up to 2nd level, instead of just 1st level. This does cost you 4 hit points and 8 skill points.
Azurin
1. Wolf Totem Barbarian
2. Crusader
3. Incarnate
4. Wolf totem barbarian
5. Incarnate
6. Crusader
7. Hellreaver
8. Hellreaver
9. Crusader
10. Crusader
(Crusader rest)
Basically lets you get Improved Trip without having to pay Combat Expertise. You'd be focusing on Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades, and Tripping with a reach weapon, as well as things that let you autoheal, like Therapeutic Mantle, as long as you can get a ruling that it works with the Crusader's healing abilities. You'd be starting with five feats: one from Azurin, four from levels, one of which has to be Power Attack.
I'm thinking maybe...
Azurin
1. Wolf Totem Barbarian
2. Crusader
3. Incarnate
4. Wolf totem barbarian
5. Incarnate
6. Crusader
7. Hellreaver
8. Hellreaver
9. Crusader
10. Crusader
(Crusader rest)
Basically lets you get Improved Trip without having to pay Combat Expertise. You'd be focusing on Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades, and Tripping with a reach weapon, as well as things that let you autoheal, like Therapeutic Mantle, as long as you can get a ruling that it works with the Crusader's healing abilities. You'd be starting with five feats: one from Azurin, four from levels, one of which has to be Power Attack.
The Wolf Totem Barbarian is 2nd and 5th level substitution, so you mean this?
Azurin
1. Crusader
2. Wolf Totem Barbarian
3. Incarnate
4. Incarnate
5. Wolf totem barbarian
6. Crusader
7. Hellreaver
8. Hellreaver
9. Crusader
10. Crusader
And are the Barbarian levels really worth it? Specially the second one, I mean, the Improved Trip could be useful in a fight but the Track feat I think isn't worth it since most probably is that in the party are going to be a Druid or Ranger or something with better survival checks than me...
And reread that build that I gave you! You end up with TWO levels of Barbarian (for trip ONLY!), TWO levels of Hellreaver, and TWO levels of Incarnate, and the rest are Crusader.
And reread that build that I gave you! You end up with TWO levels of Barbarian (for trip ONLY!), TWO levels of Hellreaver, and TWO levels of Incarnate, and the rest are Crusader.
Yeah, Yeah, I understood you the first time xD, I like tripping. What I'm saying is that you only need 1 level of Wolf Totem Barbarian, not two, to get the Improved Trip feat...
And reread that build that I gave you! You end up with TWO levels of Barbarian (for trip ONLY!), TWO levels of Hellreaver, and TWO levels of Incarnate, and the rest are Crusader.
Yeah, Yeah, I understood you the first time xD, I like tripping. What I'm saying is that you only need 1 level of Wolf Totem Barbarian, not two, to get the Improved Trip feat...
Nope
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/varia...
Wolf Totem Class Features
A barbarian dedicated to the wolf totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
- A 2nd-level wolf-totem barbarian gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
Also if your DM is nice, you might be able to get the benefit of a spirit totem and a normal totem. That would let you trade Fast Movement for Pounce from Lion Totem, and Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip from Wolf Totem.
OKEY, Now I understand your build :p
Immortal Fortitude + Diamond Defense + Strike of Righteous Vitality = unkillable by HP damage, more or less. Especially with steadfast determination which makes you not fail fort saves on a nat 1.
Actually, I'd recommend 3-4 levels of incarnate, as you get +1 soulmeld cap at 3, 4 gets BAB, saves and more essentia, but isn't otherwise, er, essential.
Immortal Fortitude + Diamond Defense + Strike of Righteous Vitality = unkillable by HP damage, more or less. Especially with steadfast determination which makes you not fail fort saves on a nat 1.
Diamond Defense is only for Swordsages or Warblades man...
I haven't done the math - what I suggested is easiest with an Eternal Blade (as they're diamond+divine) , but, basically you need IL 15 of not-crusader, and IL 17 of crusader.
Won't quite fit your build, unless you switch to an Elf (is wood elf or wild elf any good here? ) and spend a feat for a point of Essence, then take Eternal Blade from 11-20. In that case, you'd get crusader of 10+4+(6/2)=17, but only at level 20, and Warblade of 10+(10/2)=15.
Either is valid and has the same progression - you still will only get IL 17 at level 20, so depends on how important delayed damage pool and furious counterstrike are to you. EB gets a lot of int-to-X stuff, so it depends on stats.
You know, off hand I don't think I've ever seen a Magic of Incarnum Vow of Poverty build, which seems like it could work out fairly well.
I think there are magical items in the setting, just the OPs character hates using them or gaining the benefits of them or owning them. If that's the case, VoP is a TERRIBLE idea -- he needs some flexibility, and to be able to use that Mithral Full Plate, and that adamantine Duom..
Well... the setting is a world where the Church (DivineMagic) has the control, and them banned the arcane magic.
There ARE arcane magic, magic items, wizards, and so on, but to a much lesser extent, and very rarely seen (and punished)
My character just hates the church in general, and given it's nature, would be very strange to have any magic items, he trust in his own abilities, blah, blah, blah xD
The AC bonuses from Vow of Poverty absolutely blow mundane mithral full plate out of the water (+15 by 20th level) and frankly I could care less about bypassing adamantine damage resistance if I can't get past simple magic DR. A mundane simple weapon can include a longspear, which takes care of reach or he can simply use natural weapons from Magic of Incarnum. With a few stats to AC by using something like Swordsage or Monk plus say... Fist of the Forest, he should as close to decent as he can get without using magic items.
==Aelryinth
I don't see why you wouldn't have magical equipment in a divine caster heavy world. Churches make PLENTY of magic items, and clerics of the smith and war gods would certainly make all the material a fighting man would need.
==Aelryinth
That part is simply a choice he made for his character. It isn't an optimized choice, but it can _be_ optimized certainly. His character hates the church so he isn't going to use anything touched by them-- a fighter isn't going to be able to distinguish between the rare arcane items and the vast majority of church produced. While it will be tough, if he goes with Vow of Poverty it shouldn't completely cripple the character.
Heck, if he asks, it's possible that the DM might even allow him to use any mundane equipment with the feat. I could see allowing that as a DM myself-- I doubt it would break the feat if the other characters were using magic items.