- Changeling Hexblade/Spellsword
- Elf Werewolf Rogue
- Halfling Scout/Swashbuckler (though he's thinking of playing a Kalashtar Telepath instead)
- Half-Orc Barbarian/Eye of Grummsh
- And myself (undecided).
Now my plight. We allow every source under the sun as long as we can get a hold of it and generally the DM and myself don't always double check all the character sheets in the game because even though the group is new to it, they're starting to get the hang of the game (that and we only meet once a week and generally don't see each other otherwise).
Imagine my surprise that when the Hexblade (who has a history of owning a Troll slave named Dipshit with his characters) said his Troll slave was swinging a great sword. I paused as this sets alarms off in my head and tentively asked whether his slave had any levels in fighter or a similar class. The Hexblade replied with a simple "no; it said he had one in his entry."
That's right; the guy bought a War Troll slave without even fully reading it's entry or telling us before hand. Not only that but he spent a lot of his gold "pimping" out the newly dubbed Skullcrusher's gear.
On top of this, chances are we're losing the Half-Orc. He's only 11 and apparently this past session (in which the DM scattered the party to the four winds and had the Half-Orc and the Halfling wind up in a den of Black Dragons) was sufficiently firghtening enough to make him want to go home to his mother. So his mother is talking to my own about not letting him play anymore.
Now for where you all come in;
My character is a blank slate. My last guy got retconned out of existence by sheer accident (which was meant to get rid of the War Troll. I mean, we can't just flat out tell him no when he went through all the work writing it's stuff down and out and it's really the fault of my own and the acting DM for not double checking everyone's sheets.) so I'm free to build anew. The problem I present to you is....how do I put the party's future back into it's own hands with my free ticket?
The War Troll is effortlessly slaughtering CR 8 things left and right and word is the DM is going to up the Ante to make the game harder for the Hexblade and his slave. This means that the rest of the party, which IS ECL 8, is going to be royally screwed if the attention of the encounters ever turns to us.
So I put the future of the rest of the party in your guy's hands, to come up with a concept that will either make the War Troll stop eating up the Lime Light or to make the rest of the party hang there with him to allow us to better weather the storm which is to come.
Stipulations:
- ECL 8
- All books/material allowed
- 27,000 starter gold (no limit on what it's spent on)
- Gestalts and LA buy off allowed
- Flaws and Traits allowed
- Don't just say Druid or point me towards the "being God" line of threads.
- Cheese or broken is alright, just not as rank as Pun-Pun's odor.
- The party tends to lean towards evil.
Heck, he should have the thing turn and slaughter the party. Why would it work for guys that are obviously inferior to it? It might just decide it wasn't being paid enough, and demand more loot... as in your party's, if you're lucky.
Straight from their description:
Although their unruly nature and sheer power makes these mercenaries difficult to control
WTF dude... war trolls are CR 12. Despite how much work this guy did, your DM needs to get rid of that freakin' thing. That kind of stuff should be OK'd by the DM before you do that much work, and this is a lesson that he gets to learn.
Heck, he should have the thing turn and slaughter the party. Why would it work for guys that are obviously inferior to it? It might just decide it wasn't being paid enough, and demand more loot... as in your party's, if you're lucky.
Straight from their description:
We long ago established that any and all slaves bought by the party came from Neogi and generally go "When I say Jump you say How High!"
And chances are incredibly good that getting rid of the War Troll outside of it dying naturally in game won't happen.
Too bad you're not 1 level higher, or you could just keep a Teleport prepped to get the hell out of dodge when the fit hits the shan.
You could always just buy a scroll of it, though. :D
You could also go with a Psion (Egoist) with Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer. Play a LA 0 outsider of some kind, and use that to Teleport away. You'll also be able to WTFPWN everything. Just make sure to keep one use of it left.
Anyway, try suggesting to your DM that you DO have the slave turn on you guys, then when you kill it (hopefully) and go back to this Neogi guy, have him pay back the player the amount he paid for the troll, which was obviously defective as it didn't obey orders. That way both groups are happy. The troll is gone, and the player didn't waste the cash.
Now, as for you, you need to be something that can kill a war troll...
Wow, what is your DM's way of judging how much a minion/slave costs? That thing should have been really expensive.
Anyway, try suggesting to your DM that you DO have the slave turn on you guys, then when you kill it (hopefully) and go back to this Neogi guy, have him pay back the player the amount he paid for the troll, which was obviously defective as it didn't obey orders. That way both groups are happy. The troll is gone, and the player didn't waste the cash.
Now, as for you, you need to be something that can kill a war troll...
A War Troll is only 14, 400 gold.
Lords of Madness presents rules for buying slaves, it being (CR)^2 x 100 gold
And it probably won't be happening. The player is pretty fond of the new Troll and it was very difficult to get our party together in the first place. The possibility of losing yet another player at this juncture would kill the group.
Just make a character that can personally survive whatever the DM throws at you all, and let the others die, especially the Hexblade and hopefully the troll too.
Too bad you're not 1 level higher, or you could just keep a Teleport prepped to get the hell out of dodge when the fit hits the shan.
You could always just buy a scroll of it, though. :D
You could also go with a Psion (Egoist) with Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer. Play a LA 0 outsider of some kind, and use that to Teleport away. You'll also be able to WTFPWN everything. Just make sure to keep one use of it left.
Oh, I could EASILY make a single survivable character myself. But that would only tick off the rest of the group incredibly and the DM isn't too fond of "Hey, screw you guys, I'm going home" way of playing.
I've removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://forums.gleemax.com/community_coc.php
Thank you.
Anyway, it will be extremely difficult to redress the issue without 1) taking it away, 2) killing it off, 3) Being so tank it doesn't matter or, possibly, 4) Waiting it out. Wait until the troll is weak rather than strong. It shouldn't get xp after all, it's a slave, not a cohort.
I'm wondering what was against the CoC...
A user quoted the entire first post and just said "Druid". But it's been dealt with and we can move back to the topic.
However, I continue to not know how to resolve this. See my ninja editting skills above (I realized my post didn't further the thread).
And wow the mods here are quick :D Thanks to the mods.
I THINK that you guys are having an ECL vs. CR issue. I bet that you can find tricks to get past this disparity without having to resort to really messed up stuff (as in Punpun et al). Ill let the community contribute to that before I continue on that route.
Well, the problem comes from the fact that creatures with an extremely low CR (which is what is used for the slave rules, apparently) can have a very high ECL (which is what makes them overpowered). The mechanic is broken, this is just an example. A more reasonable version would be to use the ECL instead of the CR, but it may be impossible to retcon this now.
And the group also goes far more by the book then by homebrewing. Dx
And I don't need to out tank it, just find a way to help the rest of the party not die when the encounters suddenly get CR 12.
EDIT: Although the Troll might steal all the glory, but that's status quo right now.
War Weaver or Incantrix? Something that buffs the party would be good. Maybe something with BC, so your party won't die, but you don't kill everything and steal the glory.
EDIT: Although the Troll might steal all the glory, but that's status quo right now.
BC?
Hey, KL, great to see you again!
I THINK that you guys are having an ECL vs. CR issue. I bet that you can find tricks to get past this disparity without having to resort to really messed up stuff (as in Punpun et al). Ill let the community contribute to that before I continue on that route.
Thanks? o.o
And I look forward to your input if you make it.
Does no one know BC? Battlefield Control.
Ah, sorry. I'm used to CC aka Crowd Control. I blame my WoW playing. ^^;
Ah, another acronym. Silly WoW, I prefer WC3. Although, top of all is Starcraft.
+1 Battlecruiser
Although my carrier micro kicks your ass.
Well, while that changes something in theory, in practice, I don't think it means much for your problem.
Well, it cuts out all of the "must be non-evil" options.
I would say if the DM isn't willing to see the error of his ways with the war troll, then the best option is to roll with it and try to use healing and battlefield control to help the war troll as your tank and have the rest of the party aid this tactic and just try to stay alive. This won't be a balanced game but you could have some fun with it, if your character dies just make another one or take that as a good opportunity to leave and find a better run game.
Except the whole point of this thread is to find a way to make the rest of the party able to not die left and right because of the War Troll's presence.
And I can't exactly leave. They're all friends and/or family and it's the only game locally.
Share Pain from everyone to the troll. Let it take 1/2 everyone's damage. Depending on how the DM rules, it may just do subdual to it, anyway.
Well, Regeneration does say all conventional damage is subdual.
And you're suggesting I play an Egoist then?
I'm not sure that going down the super-buffing route would work because you'd probably end up throwing buffs onto the troll as well as the party (as a war weaver for example) which would make the problem worse. Maybe a character totally focused on healing? Keep the other PCs alive (or revivify them) until the increasingly high CR encounters eventually kill off the troll.
Also, be sure to have a word to the DM about this, so if/when the troll finally dies, those slavers wont have any more war trolls "in stock" but maybe some regular ones (or ogres etc) so the player still gets a sidekick but it wont unbalance the game.
Hope that helps....
You might want to consider subtly pushing the adventure path in directions where a war troll either cannot follow along with the party, it would be an extreme hinderance. For example - urban plotlines involving being stealthy and subtle. Infiltrating an enemy cult/group, petitioning powerful wizards or lords for services or information, that kind of thing. You would probably have to work with your DM for this.
I'm not sure that going down the super-buffing route would work because you'd probably end up throwing buffs onto the troll as well as the party (as a war weaver for example) which would make the problem worse. Maybe a character totally focused on healing? Keep the other PCs alive (or revivify them) until the increasingly high CR encounters eventually kill off the troll.
Also, be sure to have a word to the DM about this, so if/when the troll finally dies, those slavers wont have any more war trolls "in stock" but maybe some regular ones (or ogres etc) so the player still gets a sidekick but it wont unbalance the game.
Hope that helps....
Trust me, I've been down the route of "Hey...shouldn't our party be hella suspicious to like...everyone?" It's gotten nowhere so far.
And War Weaver says you can choose who's in the weave and that you can exclude specific members in the weave so you don't need to include the Troll in the buff sequence.
The War Troll is effortlessly slaughtering CR 8 things left and right and word is the DM is going to up the Ante to make the game harder for the Hexblade and his slave. This means that the rest of the party, which IS ECL 8, is going to be royally screwed if the attention of the encounters ever turns to us.
So I put the future of the rest of the party in your guy's hands, to come up with a concept that will either make the War Troll stop eating up the Lime Light or to make the rest of the party hang there with him to allow us to better weather the storm which is to come.
I have a similar problem with my party's necromancer although it was my fault for throwing a Desmodu at them thinking it was over the hit dice limit for a created skeleton... so with his corpse crafter and other necromantic goodies i am in a bit of a pickle since the damn thing rocks just about anything it comes into contact with...
I've taken to sending powerful clerics at him from time to time, I haven't gotten the best results but I am going to up the ante a bit i think...so as far as the troll it seems your party is gonna have to fight some higher CR characters. My party is ECL 9 and they are fighting CR 12's with relative ease which makes my job harder but it can also make it more fun. Tell your DM to send a dragon at you guys, fire overcomes regen as does acid... it can also be a good lesson in how to run away.
Edit: Also as Weezle says try to take them places the Troll can't follow like good aligned towns... I forced my PC's into a good aligned town to leave the undead out of the mix. I mean they burnt the place down but it started out good.
Gestalt
LA buyoff
Flaws
All sources ...
Fast and loose game ...
Talk about a powerful set of options. I'm sort of disappointed that you haven't gotten any solid builds yet, which is why I'm throwing something.
General way to make friends and still not unbalance the party - play a buffer. For example:
Transmuter Specialist (giving up Necromancy and Evocation)
Wizard 3/War Weaver 5 \\ Archivist 8
Half Celestial +2 LA (bought off) - or half fiendish if the DM allows
Feats:
2 from Flaws, 3 from Levels
-------------
- Enlarge Spell
- Sanctum Spell
- Craft Wonderous Item
- Spell Mastery
- Uncanny Foresight
* You can unload 4 spells, wizard or divine, of up to 4th level, in the first round of combat, buffing all your allies (make sure your charisma is "just right" - so you can buff everyone, but not have enough left over for the troll).
* At later levels, take a few bloodlines, so you can use higher-level slots.
* Next Level (9) you can grab heal off the Adept's list.
Rule Note: Assumes that Sanctum spell's "casts spells as if 1 level higher in Sanctum" qualifies our 3rd level Wizard as being able to cast 3rd level spells instead of just 2nd level.
A few Options:
- You could make it tougher by dropping Artificer and replacing it with templates. This is a pretty good choice
- You could swap 1 level of Artificer for 1 level of Wizard, so you had full wizard casting, instead of full artificer casting
- You could some version of Bard on the other side, with various abilities to pimp Bardic music.
Best,
David
EDIT: I just realized that a few other people said war weaver - consider this a +1.
My suggestion to "encourage" the players to "get rid of" the wartroll crutch is several-fold:
1) DM should take control of NPC. Period.
2) Not allow people to take leadership. Period.
3) Run encounter(s) where the monsters offer the war-troll "encouragement" to "switch sides".
4) If the players are paying the war-troll, start skimping on the treasure so all income OF THE ENTIRE PARTY will have to go towards paying the troll. A month of sessions where noone gets to keep loot because the mercenary is asking for more money will start making them look for alternate means of doing their fair share.
Heck, combining several of the above is perfectly fine... If the troll is a slave, having someone offer it wealth AND freedom might occur to it as a good alternative.
Edit:
Why the heck isn't the DM Charming or Confusing the heck out of the troll is beyond me.
So, ECL 10 you say? That sounds like a pic-a-nic basket to me! May I recommend Ur-priest centered silliness as you are evil anyway. You're gonna be gestalting it up, so satisfying the reqs becomes painfully easy.
Human
2 Flaws
Marshal4/Ur-priest6//Specialist Wizard3/Master Specialist 7
Using favored and primary contact from cityscape to hit Ur-priest early alongside silly gestalt-tricks to get the other required skills in place. 6th level spells are funny-sauce. 9th level spells by 13th should measure up okay, I guess. I mean it's not great, but what can a boy do.
Pixie
Warlock 4
easy to play.... Very Survivable... fun also
:D
I guess the fundamental question is how much pain do you want to cause? Are we talking Gom Jabbar here? Or are we looking for one borked war troll?You could also use MoMF to become a war troll yourself, probably...
human
Urban Druid1/Sell spells for a few weeks/Purchase Wildshape Amulet magic of faerun pg167 I think/MoMF 7
:surrender
On second thought, that's like using a nukes to deal with house flies.
I'd first suggest (to the DM) that with so many int based char classes there should be more skill challenges than fights, and what fights he has be more easier guys so everyone gets into the fight. For your character, how about buying your own slave like a flying mount to stay out of danger and do bc/cc.
We do tend to have more skill and luck checks then encounters actually.
And more normal guys in encounters mean we never get to fight. The War Troll has 3 attacks on a full attack and icy burst on his great sword. And once the encounter starts the enemies tend to solely focus on the Troll. No encounter has lasted more then about 4 rounds since we started.
And live I've said; my own surviving is not the problem. I'm season enough at min/maxing to make something to easily survive in my own games. Its the rest of the party I'm worried on.
I have a similar problem with my party's necromancer although it was my fault for throwing a Desmodu at them thinking it was over the hit dice limit for a created skeleton... so with his corpse crafter and other necromantic goodies i am in a bit of a pickle since the damn thing rocks just about anything it comes into contact with...
I've taken to sending powerful clerics at him from time to time, I haven't gotten the best results but I am going to up the ante a bit i think...so as far as the troll it seems your party is gonna have to fight some higher CR characters. My party is ECL 9 and they are fighting CR 12's with relative ease which makes my job harder but it can also make it more fun. Tell your DM to send a dragon at you guys, fire overcomes regen as does acid... it can also be a good lesson in how to run away.
Edit: Also as Weezle says try to take them places the Troll can't follow like good aligned towns... I forced my PC's into a good aligned town to leave the undead out of the mix. I mean they burnt the place down but it started out good.
The problem is that the current DM is a pretty nice guy. He won't specifically single out one character while writing out encounters and honestly neither will I. I actually had a jack-hole DM like that when I was still a new player and it kind of instilled me in a sense of over all fair play when DMing.
And like I said, not happening. The party and DM constantly fail to see why their characters would spook the townsfolk or bring the guards a running.
ECL 8
Gestalt
LA buyoff
Flaws
All sources ...
Fast and loose game ...
Talk about a powerful set of options. I'm sort of disappointed that you haven't gotten any solid builds yet, which is why I'm throwing something.
General way to make friends and still not unbalance the party - play a buffer. For example:
Transmuter Specialist (giving up Necromancy and Evocation)
Wizard 3/War Weaver 5 \\ Archivist 8
Half Celestial +2 LA (bought off) - or half fiendish if the DM allows
Feats:
2 from Flaws, 3 from Levels
-------------
- Enlarge Spell
- Sanctum Spell
- Craft Wonderous Item
- Spell Mastery
- Uncanny Foresight
* You can unload 4 spells, wizard or divine, of up to 4th level, in the first round of combat, buffing all your allies (make sure your charisma is "just right" - so you can buff everyone, but not have enough left over for the troll).
* At later levels, take a few bloodlines, so you can use higher-level slots.
* Next Level (9) you can grab heal off the Adept's list.
Rule Note: Assumes that Sanctum spell's "casts spells as if 1 level higher in Sanctum" qualifies our 3rd level Wizard as being able to cast 3rd level spells instead of just 2nd level.
A few Options:
- You could make it tougher by dropping Artificer and replacing it with templates. This is a pretty good choice
- You could swap 1 level of Artificer for 1 level of Wizard, so you had full wizard casting, instead of full artificer casting
- You could some version of Bard on the other side, with various abilities to pimp Bardic music.
Best,
David
EDIT: I just realized that a few other people said war weaver - consider this a +1.
Before I totally read over your build and such (which I will edit on this post soon), a few things I noticed from a glance.
2. I know Forgotten Realms added the precedent of alignment entries not always being the rule but this is a generally evil party so would Half-Celestial work?
Edit: One of the first things I noticed is you didn't mention a specific race in your build. Half-Celestial (or Half-Fiendish, which I noticed you mentioned also) is only a template after all. And I also noticed that Half-Celestial is a +4 LA so it's not even eligible for buy off until ECL 16.
Now for the feats. Which book is Uncanny Foresight from and why Craft Wondrous Item?
Also, Artificer? Do you mean Archivist?
The War Weaver option seems good.
A more risky tactic is to get yourself such a slave (or better yet: a few). Perhaps that'll hint to the problem for the player in question.
For the DM, there's also the option of killing off the offending PC (not his slave), and have the slave (then an NPC) flee.
Is the war troll a slave or a mercenary? If the former, that should have been more than the character's wealth, and should have been nix'ed. If it is a latter, how the heck is he continuing to pay it?
My suggestion to "encourage" the players to "get rid of" the wartroll crutch is several-fold:
1) DM should take control of NPC. Period.
2) Not allow people to take leadership. Period.
3) Run encounter(s) where the monsters offer the war-troll "encouragement" to "switch sides".
4) If the players are paying the war-troll, start skimping on the treasure so all income OF THE ENTIRE PARTY will have to go towards paying the troll. A month of sessions where noone gets to keep loot because the mercenary is asking for more money will start making them look for alternate means of doing their fair share.
Heck, combining several of the above is perfectly fine... If the troll is a slave, having someone offer it wealth AND freedom might occur to it as a good alternative.
Edit:
Why the heck isn't the DM Charming or Confusing the heck out of the troll is beyond me.
Nope, it's fully in their wealth. 8th level characters get 27,000 gold to start with and using the Neogi Slave forumla, a War Troll would only cost 14,400 gold.
1. I've brought up that NPCs (such as slaves or cohorts) should be DM controlled. But like the "Shouldn't the party be suspicious" argument, nothing has come of it yet.
2. No one took leadership. o.o
3. Not likely happening. The fluff behind it is the Hexblade bought the War Troll off a particularly cruel slaver and the Hexblade is far more kind and fun then him. So the Troll is "grateful".
4. We're not paying him and I'm not the DM sadly. *sigh*
ECL 8
Pixie
Warlock 4
easy to play.... Very Survivable... fun also
:D
Except I'm not looking for a "can survive on its own" character really. I can make one of those pretty simply. I need to make sure the rest of the party doesn't quit playing once things get nuts.
Let's see, you know, you could play a buildomancer! That'd clean up nicely.
You could also use MoMF to become a war troll yourself, probably...
human
Urban Druid1/Sell spells for a few weeks/Purchase Wildshape Amulet magic of faerun pg167 I think/MoMF 7
:surrender
Could you explain both a little more please?
And why surrender?
My feeling is that for that purpose, it is almost impossible to beat out a war-weaver build. If you can come up with a reason to leave the war troll out of the tapestry, so much the better, neh? Alternatively, you could suggest that the GM guide you into more social situations where the war troll is at best a liability.
For the umpteempth time, I'm the only one in the party who thinks a War Troll being present WOULD fubar any social interactions. Dx
Have only enough INT to include everyone but the troll?
The Troll is still dumber then the average commoner. Include him in the weave but just tell him that his natural SR prevents the spells from affecting while you're actually excluding him.
Or buy your own artificer slaves so that you can make sure you have kerazy items to toss around and also so that you have to include them in the tapestry over the troll.
On second thought, that's like using a nukes to deal with house flies.
Yeah, Artificers are sort of my last resort. ^^;
And I wouldn't be cheap by saying a Neogi would only charge the normal rate for even a Level 1 'ficer.
(Disclaimer: the best option is to talk to the offending player. If reasonable, he'll agree to give up the War Troll or at least replace it with a regular Troll. The following options are in case that won't work.)
The War Weaver option seems good.
A more risky tactic is to get yourself such a slave (or better yet: a few). Perhaps that'll hint to the problem for the player in question.
For the DM, there's also the option of killing off the offending PC (not his slave), and have the slave (then an NPC) flee.
Tried the first one, doesn't look like it's happening.
I doubt the second one would really work.
And the problem is the Hexblade is built like a tank itself and the War Troll never wanders far, so killing it is easier said then done.
I'd just like to suggest that whatever build you go with, I would reccomend (especially starting at ECL 8) that you choose factotum for one half of it. Spend your two flaws on font of power, and you'll be able to do a LOT with whatever you choose for the other half of the build.
Are you using fractional BAB and save advancement? If not then there's no reason why you shouldn't be working towards 16+ BAB, decent/excellent saves, 6+ skill points per level, and 6+ level spells in arcane/divine/psionic casting.
Kill the troll. Kill the hexblade, too, if you must. Try and reason with the guy, but for God's sake just kill the troll.
Retire the OP character.
Introduce your second character. Give the hexblade some cash from your retired character to make up the difference.
Tell the DM to think about stuff before letting it happen. A War Troll slave? Why on EARTH would a war troll allow himself to be enslaved by a character he can pulverize?
Your DM is a dumbass.
Honestly, just optimize the hell out of one character, and then roll up another. Don't tell anybody about the second one.
Kill the troll. Kill the hexblade, too, if you must. Try and reason with the guy, but for God's sake just kill the troll.
Retire the OP character.
Introduce your second character. Give the hexblade some cash from your retired character to make up the difference.
Tell the DM to think about stuff before letting it happen. A War Troll slave? Why on EARTH would a war troll allow himself to be enslaved by a character he can pulverize?
Your DM is a dumbass.
Erm, thank you very much for posting generally nonconstructive and inflammatory things. =/
Erm, thank you very much for posting generally nonconstructive and inflammatory things. =/
Any time.
On a more serious note, this kind of issue isn't one that should be handled in the way you're wanting to handle it. You need to talk to the entire party, the DM, and especially the hexblade. Explain that this war troll is a major problem. It is overshadowing not only you, but the entire party, and as a result you're not having fun. IMHO, this is not a CO issue, but rather this is a party issue that needs to be handled OOC.
Any DM worth his salt will understand the problem at hand. If he can't understand why you're not having fun, he hasn't even read the DMG. I'm sorry I am harsh with the way I word things, but that's just how I roll. I don't pull punches, and I'm not especially worried about hurting somebody's feelings.
The situation should not have even come to this point. In all honesty, killing the troll is not the most desirable way to handle this, but you've already expressed that you're scared to bring up the issue OOC. Don't be.
That said, to answer your earlier questions:
Let's see if my signature will show. In it is a link to the referenced buildomancer, and here is a link to what the gom jabbar is.
From a GM's perspective, you may notice similarities in their usage and their affect on a campaign. As for the druid1/MoMF7 layout, which, mind you, does nothing with your manifold gestalt levels available, which I would probably go ahead and spend like this...
fighter1/MoMF7//Druid 8
You get into MoMF using the wildshape amulet from magic of faerun pg 167, which gives druids either a +4? boost to the number of hitdice they can shift into, or crucially, if they do not have wildshape yet, it gives them wildshape as per a 5th level druid. Unlike most hacks to try and get wildshape, this one actually gives you additional effective levels in a class you actually have (druid) and you gain it as per a class ability. It's certainly debatable, and the little waved surrender was me indicating that I felt it was a horrifying option constructed of solid limburgher combined with questionable validity.
It gets worse depending on how you read MoMF stacking with druid for your effective shaping level in a gestalt game. So. Yes. If you love kittens, spicy food, or Gygax, do that only as a last resort.
Let's see if my signature will show. In it is a link to the referenced buildomancer, and here is a link to what the gom jabbar is.
From a GM's perspective, you may notice similarities in their usage and their affect on a campaign. As for the druid1/MoMF7 layout, which, mind you, does nothing with your manifold gestalt levels available, which I would probably go ahead and spend like this...
fighter1/MoMF7//Druid 8
You get into MoMF using the wildshape amulet from magic of faerun pg 167, which gives druids either a +4? boost to the number of hitdice they can shift into, or crucially, if they do not have wildshape yet, it gives them wildshape as per a 5th level druid. Unlike most hacks to try and get wildshape, this one actually gives you additional effective levels in a class you actually have (druid) and you gain it as per a class ability. It's certainly debatable, and the little waved surrender was me indicating that I felt it was a horrifying option constructed of solid limburgher combined with questionable validity.
It gets worse depending on how you read MoMF stacking with druid for your effective shaping level in a gestalt game. So. Yes. If you love kittens, spicy food, or Gygax, do that only as a last resort.
The situation should not have even come to this point. In all honesty, killing the troll is not the most desirable way to handle this, but you've already expressed that you're scared to bring up the issue OOC. Don't be.
I'm with liquid. No amount of optimizing is going to fix this problem.
As a gestalt, you can easily build something to survive what takes the troll, or take the troll out yourself. With a little effort, you can probably build something capable of helping your entire party survive whatever that experience amounts to.
However, what's going to happen is then the offending player is just going to buy another War Troll, or the DM is going to come back around and allow something just as stupid to occur.
Without a fundamental understanding of the underlying problem(s), and a willingness to actually do something about it, both as DM and as players, it's doomed to repeat.
I'm with liquid. No amount of optimizing is going to fix this problem.
As a gestalt, you can easily build something to survive what takes the troll, or take the troll out yourself. With a little effort, you can probably build something capable of helping your entire party survive whatever that experience amounts to.
However, what's going to happen is then the offending player is just going to buy another War Troll, or the DM is going to come back around and allow something just as stupid to occur.
I'm going to go a little further, and mind you, I don't mean to be tactless, I am just a very simpl creature.
The way I see it, what got you into this hole is one of our great enemies, the power imbalance brought on by one player figuring out a Trick that no one else noticed. Sure, the GM shouldn't have let it in, but again as you said, it was technically book-legal. In fact, it was the same kind of thing that we often enjoy in indulging in when it comes to theoretical optimization.
I'd quietly prefer you didn't use any of the ideas that I've offered, though I offer them in good faith out of the assumed trust shared by us COers that you will be wise. Why? Because that's just buying a second war troll. This sounded more affable in my head. I apologize for any slight offered.
Now, if reasonable options are pursued, and the player won't yield while the play-group decides they need this player.... Then we have a problem that can be solved by helping everyone in the group step up to the power level of a war troll. That's a bad option, but if it's our only option, well.....
Any time.
On a more serious note, this kind of issue isn't one that should be handled in the way you're wanting to handle it. You need to talk to the entire party, the DM, and especially the hexblade. Explain that this war troll is a major problem. It is overshadowing not only you, but the entire party, and as a result you're not having fun. IMHO, this is not a CO issue, but rather this is a party issue that needs to be handled OOC.
Any DM worth his salt will understand the problem at hand. If he can't understand why you're not having fun, he hasn't even read the DMG. I'm sorry I am harsh with the way I word things, but that's just how I roll. I don't pull punches, and I'm not especially worried about hurting somebody's feelings.
The situation should not have even come to this point. In all honesty, killing the troll is not the most desirable way to handle this, but you've already expressed that you're scared to bring up the issue OOC. Don't be.
I've already tried the diplomatic way and the Hexblade player has ingrained the Troll in several comedic ways so even though the rest of us are only dust in the wind behind his swings we're not in the miserable pits yet.
And I've sort of mentioned the possibility of killing it off for the good of the party but that really only got half-hearted "now you can't do that..." from just about the entire party.
Why is there no smiley available for ontological unease?
Any character you OP to the point that you can take on the war troll will, by proxy, also overshadow the rest of your party. Now YOU are the bad guy, with one of your co-players angry at you for killing his troll (and possibly his character).
In that situation, YOU now become the target of the same types of feelings that brought you here in the first place.
The answer is to talk to the DM, talk to the player, explain how completely out of whack this troll has thrown the game balance (although it sounds like your DM has completely thrown game balance out the window). Explain how you feel about the situation, come up with a solution and present it.
The CO board is not a place you come to rectify sticky game situations where people's feelings and "fun" are involved. Following the advice given here will inevitably result in bitterness on the part of not only the hexblade, but also the rest of the party.
Well you won't be overshadowed by the war troll if you just drop
20^2 x 100=40,000 gp for a Balor slave. You won't be overshadowed by the war troll anymore :D
The fundamental reasoning behind my "provocative" post was this:
Any character you OP to the point that you can take on the war troll will, by proxy, also overshadow the rest of your party. Now YOU are the bad guy, with one of your co-players angry at you for killing his troll (and possibly his character).
In that situation, YOU now become the target of the same types of feelings that brought you here in the first place.
The answer is to talk to the DM, talk to the player, explain how completely out of whack this troll has thrown the game balance (although it sounds like your DM has completely thrown game balance out the window). Explain how you feel about the situation, come up with a solution and present it.
The CO board is not a place you come to rectify sticky game situations where people's feelings and "fun" are involved. Following the advice given here will inevitably result in bitterness on the part of not only the hexblade, but also the rest of the party.
I'm pretty sure that several times I've shot down "single survivability" and "kill the War Troll" build ideas.
I am not, I repeat, am not, looking for a way to out do the War Troll.
I am looking for a way to create a team buffer so that the rest of the party can survive the storm the DM needs to cook up to make the War Troll and Hexblader not god in this.
If my posts have said otherwise (or the OP, which I'll go double check now) then I am sorry for the error.
I've already tried the diplomatic way and the Hexblade player has ingrained the Troll in several comedic ways so even though the rest of us are only dust in the wind behind his swings we're not in the miserable pits yet.
And I've sort of mentioned the possibility of killing it off for the good of the party but that really only got half-hearted "now you can't do that..." from just about the entire party.
In that case (sorry, I posted that last post as you posted this and I hadn't seen it) don't worry about anything. OP the heck out of your character, and kill the whole freakin' party if you have to.
Either that, or just forget about it, and wait 4 or 5 levels until the troll is just fodder. I wouldn't do it that way, because I like to actually be able to participate.
If the Hexblade's only issue is that they "put in a lot of work", then take that out of the equation and do it for them.
CR^2 x 100 eh?
Well you won't be overshadowed by the war troll if you just drop
20^2 x 100=40,000 gp for a Balor slave. You won't be overshadowed by the war troll anymore :D
Ignoring that the course of action you just suggested is not what I want; my wealth by level could not afford one.
So now to the meat of the matter.
What do you want to play and how can we help you?
My suggestion remains is a wizard 3/war weaver5//archivist 8, using sanctum spell for early access to war weaver. This WILL give you the opportunity to participate. In fact, early game, it's hard for me to articulate a more powerful character who isn't a straight on game-break. It has the distinct advantage of bringing support and utility to the table, particularly the kinds of buffs that your friends will need to stand alongside a war troll.
Conveniently, I have a war weaver handbook which contains not only my collected wisdom on the topic, but a link to the collected wisdom of wiser men. Here you go.
Then go ahead and open up the spoilers tab in that post I made...
Why is there no smiley available for ontological unease?
I don't need those, but thank you for those suggestions.
I'm probably going to just take earlier suggestions and make a War-weaver gestalt while adding templates or a good accompanying class so that the party will most certainly survive the CR 12 encounters to come.
:: sighs ::
So now to the meat of the matter.
What do you want to play and how can we help you?
My suggestion remains is a wizard 3/war weaver5//archivist 8, using sanctum spell for early access to war weaver. This WILL give you the opportunity to participate. In fact, early game, it's hard for me to articulate a more powerful character who isn't a straight on game-break. It has the distinct advantage of bringing support and utility to the table, particularly the kinds of buffs that your friends will need to stand alongside a war troll.
Conveniently, I have a war weaver handbook which contains not only my collected wisdom on the topic, but a link to the collected wisdom of wiser men. Here you go.
That was the plan I had decided upon and I did notice your handbook. I was thumbing through it earlier. ^_^
Now comes the problem of re-gathering up the party from the scattered winds. But I can always rely on items and UMD for that.
:: nods :: Looks like we were typing at the same time and I just type a little faster. I'm sorry if our responses to this thread have left you thinking low of us. I would certainly understand, though I would not empathize. It is just that this is a very hard topic that lies at the heart of playing games. Any kind of games. And answers come neither easily nor evenly.
Hardly. The group is still green and the DM is still learning his depth; so you should expect some holes like these to occur. Even though I'm the de facto DM when it comes to rulings and clarification of rules I can't double check everything and I don't like setting precedents about which rules are ok and which rules are not.
I'll just come up with a good party supporter and try to keep everyone alive.
You said another party member is considering a psion. Suggest this. Share Pain is a general Psion/Wilder power, not an Egoist power. So all he has to do is choose it as a power known, and spend the power points. If he doesn't pick it up, you might consider sticking Psion on one side of your War Weaver, or researching Share Pain as an arcane spell, if the DM is ok with that.
, XY.Archivist 8/Factotum 8 would be an interesting combination
. Outside of combat you could buff the entire party literally in the blink of an eye (you can spend inspiration points as much as you want outside of combat, though only once per day to skills as usual).Nope, it's fully in their wealth. 8th level characters get 27,000 gold to start with and using the Neogi Slave forumla, a War Troll would only cost 14,400 gold.
1. I've brought up that NPCs (such as slaves or cohorts) should be DM controlled. But like the "Shouldn't the party be suspicious" argument, nothing has come of it yet.
2. No one took leadership. o.o
3. Not likely happening. The fluff behind it is the Hexblade bought the War Troll off a particularly cruel slaver and the Hexblade is far more kind and fun then him. So the Troll is "grateful".
4. We're not paying him and I'm not the DM sadly. *sigh*
Just wondering: What rules you are citing that allows you to control additional characters w/out Leadership or a cohort-like class feature. I hope the DM has been adjudicating XP division to the troll as well... possibly including some character levels or racial HD progression as well.
In addition, slavery is typically considered an evil act. Ignoring slavery might be neutral alignment, but good (in most campaign worlds) would be against it, and double that towards owning their own slaves.
Basically, you have just paid money and "bought" a more powerful version of Leadership, which is why I brought up the "Leadership" issue.
If the DM wants an in-game/in-character reason to get rid of the troll, have the troll get homesick and REALLY wants to leave.
Finally, I doubt that ECL +4 would really bother your party much, especially with what you have described as your DM's experience. Normal characters can handle high encounters if done correctly, gestalt just seems to take all the fun out of it for me... and I hate playing optimized characters! From what it sounds like, unless you start encountering lots of things w/ massive fire damage, that troll isn't going to die. If it doesn't die w/in a couple levels, it should never be able to die, mostly because of access to raise-dead type spells become available.
In a game where the DM is afraid to lay down laws and stand by them, you can only watch and wave as the expected gameplay goes out the window.
Just wondering: What rules you are citing that allows you to control additional characters w/out Leadership or a cohort-like class feature. I hope the DM has been adjudicating XP division to the troll as well... possibly including some character levels or racial HD progression as well.
In addition, slavery is typically considered an evil act. Ignoring slavery might be neutral alignment, but good (in most campaign worlds) would be against it, and double that towards owning their own slaves.
Basically, you have just paid money and "bought" a more powerful version of Leadership, which is why I brought up the "Leadership" issue.
If the DM wants an in-game/in-character reason to get rid of the troll, have the troll get homesick and REALLY wants to leave.
Finally, I doubt that ECL +4 would really bother your party much, especially with what you have described as your DM's experience. Normal characters can handle high encounters if done correctly, gestalt just seems to take all the fun out of it for me... and I hate playing optimized characters! From what it sounds like, unless you start encountering lots of things w/ massive fire damage, that troll isn't going to die. If it doesn't die w/in a couple levels, it should never be able to die, mostly because of access to raise-dead type spells become available.
In a game where the DM is afraid to lay down laws and stand by them, you can only watch and wave as the expected gameplay goes out the window.
As I said earlier, the DM does NOT control NPCs, even though I bring it up he should.
And the Troll gets none of the EXP or the treasure. He's basically a gun to just be pointed and let loose by his player.
Also, no one else in the group plays gestalts and as I've said, they're all pretty green so they're not even really good at building non-optimized, let alone optimized, characters.
They take feats like Investigator. Dx
How about just telling him his war troll is overshadowing the party, lessening the enjoyment of everyone, and ask him to get rid of it or make a new character?
Like I've said a few times now, already tried that route.
Like I've said a few times now, already tried that route.
Well is it just you or is everyone telling them this? Why isn't the DM just laying down the law?
Sorry if this is just rehashed, but lots of pages to read through and not enough time now.
Well is it just you or is everyone telling them this? Why isn't the DM just laying down the law?
Sorry if this is just rehashed, but lots of pages to read through and not enough time now.
The DM nor myself are not laying down the law for several reasons. I don't feel like going into all of them or over the ones I already said again, so let's leave it there.
And we kind of all said it but we're are almost definitely losing our main tank for good and the War Troll screams tank so it's kind of a tender subject.
Just think that it is abusive if a player can effectively spend gold and buy a feat. Heck, buy it multiple times and let it stack. Even worse, have it be more powerful than the original feat. And we are talking about one of the worst feats in terms of "brokeness"... Leadership.
Don't get me started on Nightsticks. :P
Warforged Archivist 8//Wizard 3/War Weaver 5
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Weak Will
1 - Enlarge Spell, Sanctum Spell, ??? (Flaw feat), Scribe Scroll
3 - ??? (3rd level feat)
6 - ??? (6th level feat)
I plan on spending my wealth on Greater Glyph Seals and just fill them up with Celerity to easily do all my buffing in one round or to grab an extra action in combat. I also plan on buying a Heward's Fortified Bed Roll and a Belt of Battle.
Any suggestions on the feats or anything else with this build?
No offense, Latte.
Just think that it is abusive if a player can effectively spend gold and buy a feat. Heck, buy it multiple times and let it stack. Even worse, have it be more powerful than the original feat. And we are talking about one of the worst feats in terms of "brokeness"... Leadership.
Don't get me started on Nightsticks. :P
Trust me; the rules on buying slaves will be far more strict after the War Troll shuffles off the mortal...aw crap. Nothing stops him from raising the sucker. Dx
Trust me; the rules on buying slaves will be far more strict after the War Troll shuffles off the mortal...aw crap. Nothing stops him from raising the sucker. Dx
Sure there is...if the DM is smart enough to off him with something that prevents it.
Sure there is...if the DM is smart enough to off him with something that prevents it.
Only the Maurezhi comes to mind.
Only the Maurezhi comes to mind.
There are quite a few things. Barghests, Trap the Soul, thinuan weapons, turn him into an undead, etc. Of course, your novice DM is probably totally clueless about this stuff.
There are quite a few things. Barghests, Trap the Soul, thinuan weapons, turn him into an undead, etc. Of course, your novice DM is probably totally clueless about this stuff.
Barghests only work on humanoids.
Trap the Soul is an 8th level spell and thus falls into the "We won't single out a character" category.
And making him undead doesn't prevent him from being brought back.
What book is Thinuan in? Unlike Trollbane it's nonspecific enough to be allowed.
There's a low-level spell called barghest feast in the spell compendium.
6th and 7th level spells are low? o.o
you said that gestalt was allowed so...
paladin(tyranny variant)4//sorcerer(Metamagic specialist)4 and then take spell sword with alternating levels in fighter and sorcerer to avoid casting loss
At ecl 8 you could be wearing mithral full plate casting as an 8th level sorcerer with ridiculous saves and very nearly 8 levels at a d10 hit die. Channel spell?
Pretty survivable by my count.
Channel spell?
how about battering ram?
take blockade(CSc) as a first level spell, arcane strike them, knock them back with battering ram and then put a 2000lb block of wood in their way so they can't charge you.
I run this build at level 4 now, it's pretty great, can't wait for asf reduction.
So from advice and my ideas, I'm thinking of filling my guy as the following:
Warforged Archivist 8//Wizard 3/War Weaver 5
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Weak Will
1 - Enlarge Spell, Sanctum Spell, ??? (Flaw feat), Scribe Scroll
3 - ??? (3rd level feat)
6 - ??? (6th level feat)
I plan on spending my wealth on Greater Glyph Seals and just fill them up with Celerity to easily do all my buffing in one round or to grab an extra action in combat. I also plan on buying a Heward's Fortified Bed Roll and a Belt of Battle.
Any suggestions on the feats or anything else with this build?
*cough*
And making him undead doesn't prevent him from being brought back.
Yes it does, if you don't first destroy his undead form. If you make someone an undead, and then hide the resulting undead, they can't be brought back to life by any means until it is found and destroyed.
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.
What book is Thinuan in? Unlike Trollbane it's nonspecific enough to be allowed.
Complete Warrior, I think. It is a metal that absorbs souls.
Trust me; the rules on buying slaves will be far more strict after the War Troll shuffles off the mortal...aw crap. Nothing stops him from raising the sucker. Dx
Mentioned that one:
From what it sounds like, unless you start encountering lots of things w/ massive fire damage, that troll isn't going to die. If it doesn't die w/in a couple levels, it should never be able to die, mostly because of access to raise-dead type spells become available.
Heck, you might have access to scrolls of the spell already. Although most people seem to forget about the additional material cost of the spell when buying the scrolls. :P
Thinuan is from Complete Warrior, p.136. Only good if the bad guy manages to kill the troll while touching it w/ the weapon AND gets away from the players afterwards.
Thinuan is from Complete Warrior, p.136. Only good if the bad guy manages to kill the troll while touching it w/ the weapon AND gets away from the players afterwards.
I'm going to have to remember this crap. This could come in handy in at least one of the games I'm in. :evillaugh
Edit: Ah crap, melee only. It should still work on thrown daggers, though.
We'll fight around 10 Maurezhi (Fiend Folio; 50). The Maurezhi will all summon, getting an average of 2 Ghouls each.
The War Troll will be Shared Pain with the whole party and my War weaver (which hasn't been commented on >< ) will be healing everyone in the party but the War Troll. Hopefully this will wear down the War Troll sufficiently that my War Weaver will subtly just Dimension Door the party out of there and leave the beat stick to the wolves.
So from advice and my ideas, I'm thinking of filling my guy as the following:
Warforged Archivist 8//Wizard 3/War Weaver 5
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Weak Will
1 - Enlarge Spell, Sanctum Spell, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll
3 - Quicken Spell
6 - Improved Familiar
I plan on spending my wealth on Greater Glyph Seals and just fill them up with Celerity to easily do all my buffing in one round or to grab an extra action in combat. I also plan on buying a Heward's Fortified Bed Roll and a Belt of Battle.
Any suggestions on the feats or anything else with this build?
Updated
The plan is, if we can't convince him to change, that the DM will run an encounter I tailored.
We'll fight around 10 Maurezhi (Fiend Folio; 50). The Maurezhi will all summon, getting an average of 2 Ghouls each.
The War Troll will be Shared Pain with the whole party and my War weaver (which hasn't been commented on >< ) will be healing everyone in the party but the War Troll. Hopefully this will wear down the War Troll sufficiently that my War Weaver will subtly just Dimension Door the party out of there and leave the beat stick to the wolves.
If there is any type of cleric in the party, I wouldn't go that heavy on the ghouls. See about pre-preparing the rolls, so you know how many are going to be arriving. Additionally, you could give them maximize spell-like ability (for max ghouls), or summon the swarms of dretches, who summon additional dretches... and give all the dretches swarmfighting instead of multi-attack. Sheer numbers would be able to take down the troll by themselves...
If there is any type of cleric in the party, I wouldn't go that heavy on the ghouls. See about pre-preparing the rolls, so you know how many are going to be arriving. Additionally, you could give them maximize spell-like ability (for max ghouls), or summon the swarms of dretches, who summon additional dretches... and give all the dretches swarmfighting instead of multi-attack. Sheer numbers would be able to take down the troll by themselves...
We have no Clerics and doesn't the rules for such summoning say a summoned creature can't use it's own summoning until after the duration of it's summoning runs out?
If you're running a war weaver, and he's not in the tapestry, you can probably give everyone else fly... and oh look, he's stuck in the maelstrom.
Simple question, that I forgot to ask. Can he swim? If so, how well?
If you're running a war weaver, and he's not in the tapestry, you can probably give everyone else fly... and oh look, he's stuck in the maelstrom.
And there just happens to be a maelstrom nearby? xD
Updated
So from advice and my ideas, I'm thinking of filling my guy as the following:
Warforged Archivist 8//Wizard 3/War Weaver 5
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Weak Will
1 - Enlarge Spell, Sanctum Spell, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll
3 - Quicken Spell
6 - Improved Familiar
I plan on spending my wealth on Greater Glyph Seals and just fill them up with Celerity to easily do all my buffing in one round or to grab an extra action in combat. I also plan on buying a Heward's Fortified Bed Roll and a Belt of Battle.
Any suggestions on the feats or anything else with this build?
In my original post I did mean archivist rather than artificer. And you are correct, the +2 LA should probably be +1. Also, the "Book of Exalted Deeds" lists a 1/2 celestial at +2 LA, depending on a characters racial hit die, which is why it is +2 rather than +4.
For the above build, improved familiar is a good choice. (Have you seen the familiar handbook? Look in Surreal's links).
Why play a warforged? This doesn't do much for you. I'd probably play a generalist elf. (See the Elf Substitution levels on p. 157 of races of the wild). This will give you an extra spell slot of your highest level as well as doubling the familiars bonus.
If you take a humming bird familiar (Dragon Mag.), this gives +4 to initiative, which is doubled to become +8.
Quicken spell is not yet worth taking - it has a +4 LA, and you can only cast level 4 spells! There is not much use to being able to quicken cantrips!
Finally, if I were to post a more optimal build, it would probably be:
Grey Elf
Wizard 3/War Weaver 5 \\ Shadow +2, Phrenic +2, Half Celestial +2, Half Fiendish +2
Elf Wizard Substitution Levels 1, 3
Feats:
1 - Enlarge Spell, Sanctum Spell, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll
3 - Spell Mastery
6 - Uncanny Foresight
This assumes:
1) Your DM allows sanctum spell to qualify you for War Weaver's 3rd level spells casting prerequisite
2) Half Celestial is +2, as listed in the Book of Exalted Deeds, rather than the +4 listed in the Monster Manual
3) Half Fiend is adjusted to be comparable to Half Celestial.
4) If the DM doesn't like 2) or 3), you can substitute the Phrenic Template and the Half-Fey template (later one from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)
You'd have incredible stats and much more durability. The stats would allow you to more effectively apply battlefield control spells.
Standard Combat:
1) Win initiative, unleash 4 spells from weave onto party mates.
2) Cast Celerity, so that you can cast again
3) Cast a battlefield control spell (Glitterdust for example) - your attributes would make it a difficult thing to save against. Also, you could "accidentally" sometimes catch the war-troll in the area of your Battlefield control spells.
That said, archivist (as I put in my original post) also works just fine, and gives you access to healing spells.
Another Option: You could also use the Circle Magic feat from Ghostwalk + low-level caster slaves to fuel powerful Caster Levels. This, combined with a Rod of Extend Spell would allow you to have buffs which lasted quite a while. (~6 hours per casting, for the whole party).
Sorry that this is such a random post, but hopefully there are helpful tidbits. Feel free to ask questions if you need more clarity anywhere.
Best,
David
Cheesy as all hell, but it might just be the thing to say "I'll put these away if you put the war troll away"
Also, since you're an evil party you should totally backstab more.
In my original post I did mean archivist rather than artificer. And you are correct, the +2 LA should probably be +1. Also, the "Book of Exalted Deeds" lists a 1/2 celestial at +2 LA, depending on a characters racial hit die, which is why it is +2 rather than +4.
For the above build, improved familiar is a good choice. (Have you seen the familiar handbook? Look in Surreal's links).
Why play a warforged? This doesn't do much for you. I'd probably play a generalist elf. (See the Elf Substitution levels on p. 157 of races of the wild). This will give you an extra spell slot of your highest level as well as doubling the familiars bonus.
If you take a humming bird familiar (Dragon Mag.), this gives +4 to initiative, which is doubled to become +8.
Quicken spell is not yet worth taking - it has a +4 LA, and you can only cast level 4 spells! There is not much use to being able to quicken cantrips!
Finally, if I were to post a more optimal build, it would probably be:
Grey Elf
Wizard 3/War Weaver 5 \\ Shadow +2, Phrenic +2, Half Celestial +2, Half Fiendish +2
Elf Wizard Substitution Levels 1, 3
Feats:
1 - Enlarge Spell, Sanctum Spell, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll
3 - Spell Mastery
6 - Uncanny Foresight
This assumes:
1) Your DM allows sanctum spell to qualify you for War Weaver's 3rd level spells casting prerequisite
2) Half Celestial is +2, as listed in the Book of Exalted Deeds, rather than the +4 listed in the Monster Manual
3) Half Fiend is adjusted to be comparable to Half Celestial.
4) If the DM doesn't like 2) or 3), you can substitute the Phrenic Template and the Half-Fey template (later one from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)
You'd have incredible stats and much more durability. The stats would allow you to more effectively apply battlefield control spells.
Standard Combat:
1) Win initiative, unleash 4 spells from weave onto party mates.
2) Cast Celerity, so that you can cast again
3) Cast a battlefield control spell (Glitterdust for example) - your attributes would make it a difficult thing to save against. Also, you could "accidentally" sometimes catch the war-troll in the area of your Battlefield control spells.
That said, archivist (as I put in my original post) also works just fine, and gives you access to healing spells.
Another Option: You could also use the Circle Magic feat from Ghostwalk + low-level caster slaves to fuel powerful Caster Levels. This, combined with a Rod of Extend Spell would allow you to have buffs which lasted quite a while. (~6 hours per casting, for the whole party).
Sorry that this is such a random post, but hopefully there are helpful tidbits. Feel free to ask questions if you need more clarity anywhere.
Best,
David
Are you sure you don't mean Sanctified Creature? I checked BoED but I'm not seeing a listing for Half-Celestial.
I chose Warforged for several fluffier reasons. Since it's an evil party I needed a reason for a heal/buffer bot to even want to associate with the party with out being paid for each spell he casts. Also, Warforged have several natural immunities which mean I don't need to waste gold, feats or spells on things like Endure Elements.
Yeah, I don't remember why I put in Quicken.
Other then the Stats, is there a reason for Phrenic? If it's there for just say, the Int buff, I could probably get a homebrewed re-adjustment of Lolth-Touched past the DM. And if that'd happened I'd play a Ghost Elf instead of a Grey Elf with that build.
I was also thinking of possibly dropping Wizard and using Blue Mage to go into War Weaver. Since Blue Mages can have any class spells on their list I could easily make out of game rolls and spend gold to tailor my spell list for buffing/CCing.
And I don't plan on casting Celerity during combat. That's why I have a Bandoleer of Glyph Seals.
If you really wanted to show them the cheese of the slave thing, get yourself a psion with the infinite psicrystal/leadership loop. Or the infinite dragon cohort loop. The latter basically functions like this: You tread the dragon's actual level as being -3 when determining its level for cohort purposes. So since cohorts normally have to be two levels below yours, this dragon would in fact, be one level above you. As dragon cohort does not prevent that dragon from taking dragon cohort itself, it can then have a dragon who is one level above it. Ad infinitum.
Cheesy as all hell, but it might just be the thing to say "I'll put these away if you put the war troll away"
Also, since you're an evil party you should totally backstab more.
I'm not looking to outdo the War Troll though. I'm looking to help the party as a whole be more survivable.
And the player has utterly refused to change since he believes that his War Troll is the only thing keeping the party from wiping.
If I'm wrong, please tell, then ignore me ;)
And the player has utterly refused to change since he believes that his War Troll is the only thing keeping the party from wiping.
This is precisely my point of why nothing you do 'in play' is going to resolve this issue.
To fix that kind of (lack of) logic, the DM and the player need to discuss things out of play. There's a way to take things from your player as a DM without it being a big deal or people quitting over it. Now's the time to learn how.
This is precisely my point of why nothing you do 'in play' is going to resolve this issue.
To fix that kind of (lack of) logic, the DM and the player need to discuss things out of play. There's a way to take things from your player as a DM without it being a big deal or people quitting over it. Now's the time to learn how.
If I can get my DM to put his foot down. *sigh*
Are you sure you don't mean Sanctified Creature? I checked BoED but I'm not seeing a listing for Half-Celestial.
Yes, see page 27.
I chose Warforged for several fluffier reasons. Since it's an evil party I needed a reason for a heal/buffer bot to even want to associate with the party with out being paid for each spell he casts. Also, Warforged have several natural immunities which mean I don't need to waste gold, feats or spells on things like Endure Elements.
Fair enough.
Other then the Stats, is there a reason for Phrenic? If it's there for just say, the Int buff, I could probably get a homebrewed re-adjustment of Lolth-Touched past the DM. And if that'd happened I'd play a Ghost Elf instead of a Grey Elf with that build.
In general, Phrenic is a nice template, although it is less useful for this particular build. So, in this case, the answer is no, only for stats and SR.
I was also thinking of possibly dropping Wizard and using Blue Mage to go into War Weaver. Since Blue Mages can have any class spells on their list I could easily make out of game rolls and spend gold to tailor my spell list for buffing/CCing.
Cool - Blue Mages could make great buffers, and you get the best of both worlds (divine and arcane).
And I don't plan on casting Celerity during combat. That's why I have a Bandoleer of Glyph Seals.
Sorry - I don't know what a Bandoleer of Glyph Seals is.
I hope your build is coming along!
Best,
David
Are you sure you don't mean Sanctified Creature? I checked BoED but I'm not seeing a listing for Half-Celestial.
I chose Warforged for several fluffier reasons. Since it's an evil party I needed a reason for a heal/buffer bot to even want to associate with the party with out being paid for each spell he casts. Also, Warforged have several natural immunities which mean I don't need to waste gold, feats or spells on things like Endure Elements.
Yeah, I don't remember why I put in Quicken.
Other then the Stats, is there a reason for Phrenic? If it's there for just say, the Int buff, I could probably get a homebrewed re-adjustment of Lolth-Touched past the DM. And if that'd happened I'd play a Ghost Elf instead of a Grey Elf with that build.
I was also thinking of possibly dropping Wizard and using Blue Mage to go into War Weaver. Since Blue Mages can have any class spells on their list I could easily make out of game rolls and spend gold to tailor my spell list for buffing/CCing.
And I don't plan on casting Celerity during combat. That's why I have a Bandoleer of Glyph Seals.
Evil party? Didn't see that mentioned at the beginning. That changes a whole lot about the game and suggestions...
I have a hankering to play as a Lawful Neutral cleric of Zilchus... And ask for payment for EVERY time they want healing. ^_^
Yes, see page 27.
Huh, so there it is. But I think MM 3.5 trumps BoED.
Evil party? Didn't see that mentioned at the beginning. That changes a whole lot about the game and suggestions...
I have a hankering to play as a Lawful Neutral cleric of Zilchus... And ask for payment for EVERY time they want healing. ^_^
Some one tried that before. It ****** off the whole party (minus me since I had Fast Healing) and they refused to pay.
Negotiate a deal for the cost of the healing before the attacks, then turn around and negotiate a deal for the amount of protection you provide -him- before the attacks. ^_^
That, and it teaches people to stop leaving me to be the resident heal-wench. ^_^