Help needed with a Sorcerer / Warlock / Eldritch Theurge build. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help needed with a Sorcerer / Warlock / Eldritch Theurge build.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
giltintur
Aug 05, 2010 17:48:11 Heyya!

I'm about to join a -hopefully very- long campaign, in which I plan on playing with a Fey'ri Eldritch Theurge on the long run.

At the moment, it seems, that it will start of with a Precocious Apprentice feat, and only level up with warlock until his final admission to the ET Prestige class.

My questions would be:
Which invocations to choose?

Which spells to choose?

Most of all: Which feats to choose?

My stats are (with some fearly good dice rolling and a nice little home-brew rule of tradeof)
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Cha: 18

I know, that it would be better to start of with a wizard instead, but that -and any other base class instead of the sorcerer- is totally out of question.

We will start at 5. level, (Sor1/War2 +2ECL).

I'm planning on getting most of the Infernal Heritage feats, are they worth it? I'm sure they go along quite well roleplayingwise...

Oh, and my plan is, being a higher level warlock blaster and a lower level sorc summoner, but these are only a bit more than ideas at the moment.

Any help is really appreciated.
#2
dead_weasel
Aug 05, 2010 19:04:41 First of all, I would suggest that you move some of that Int elsewhere (Dex would be best, but Con, Wis or Cha could also be improved); unless you intend to help skillmonkey it does you no good.

Secondly, I would suggest that you focus on a 'ranged Charisma' Warlock (research the reference here), for fairly obvious reasons: you already have the Charisma, your racial abilities already compensate for the buffs you would take otherwise, and it will let you squeeze a little use out of the ET abilities, which are pretty bad in general and for you in particular.

This is your chance to plan out everything and you need to do so, because you already have a lot of overlapping choices to make:
Invocations

Spells

Racial Abilities

It would be best to use your feats to enhance the abilities you have (i.e. Flyby Attack and Precise Shot) and use spells to fill in the gaps; the Fiendish Heritage feats offer you comparatively little benefit.

You are stuck with a bad racial or feat until you can retrain it (which might be never!), but even if you choose a bad spell, you never have to cast it, and you can retrain it away at your convenience.

Remember to buy off your LA, if you can. What is your plan post-ET?
#3
giltintur
Aug 06, 2010 3:01:49 Thanks for the answer Dead_Weasel!

I am definitely planing on being a 'ranged Charisma' type, as I hope to acquire the Lord of All Essences feat at epic levels.

Post-ET I don't have much plans yet, I do however wish to get at least 1 more arcane caster level -I'm not so sure about Sorcerer, but I have yet to find a classy PrC- and so being able to cast 6th level spells (even if just three of them). And I want to get least 2 Dark invocations, so I suppose I'll be levelling up at least a bit more with the warlock.

I suppose that means something like Sor1/War4/ET10/ and then 1 more arcane caster and 4 more Warlock levels by level 20, in whichever order is the most convenient. After that, at the epic levels? I don't have a clue.

Regarding Int: I do plan on being a skillmonkey, as we play a bit more of the social-high-fantasy type than your classical dungeon dwelling, and the DM likes asking for skillchecks.

And I might be a bit of a noob, but what does LA stand for?
#4
dead_weasel
Aug 06, 2010 4:50:43 I would still swap Dex and Int were I you. Moving on.

Before I forget: if you plan on wearing armor, choose your spells/feats to minimize/avoid spell failure. PrCs and Battle Sorcerer exist to deal with precisely this issue.

If you insist on another level of Sorcerer progression, you should use a PrC. All sorcerer offers is familiar progression; anything is better than that. Off the top of my head, Ruathar and Visionary Seeker have an easy entry requirement alongside an RP requirement; talk to your DM if you settle on one of those. Despite being a terrible fit at first glance, Ruathar could actually make a weird sort of sense, given the right circumstances.

As for epic levels, I would strongly recommend epic ET; if your DM disallows it or you find working out the progression daunting, proceeding with Warlock should be adequate.

Level Adjustment. If your DM allows it you can spend XP to remove LA. This has two results: it lowers your ECL, which means that you (should) receive more experience for being at a lower level than the rest of your party; and it reopens the levels you 'lost' to LA for you to take class levels.

As to being a noob, I would recommend reading the FAQ; the culture has changed in the meantime but it is still a good place to begin. Once that is out of the way, you should summon your courage and delve into the SurrealDex. The forum changeovers were not kind to it, but it is still rich with resources of every kind, and even the dead links are glittering fragments of what once was. These two threads are stickied at the top of the CO boards, should you need to return to them.
#5
tr0llman
Aug 06, 2010 5:23:19 I recommend Sorceror 4/Warlock 1 instead. A Chasuble of Fell Power is 8.000 gp, easily affordable when you're at ECL with 5 class levels, and allows entry to the PrC. The DMG explicitly allows magic items to satisfy PrC regquirements.
#6
giltintur
Aug 06, 2010 9:48:59 Tr0llman: I can't really see the point of doing that. For one, I prefer warlock, and the feats from the warlock levels are way better than anything I would get from the 4 sorcerer levels.

Dead_Weasel:
I have read quite a few of these threads during the last couple of days, being noob is a bit more about never before playing an arcane caster or warlock in D&D yet and a minor language barrier, as English isn't my native.
But, enough whimpering.

The LA tradeoff is a great, I already stared convincing the DM about it...

And yes, I knew I didn't want to stay a sorcerer, but I had yet to find the good enough PrC. I already checked out most form the list at the other forum, and Abjurant Champion was perhaps my best bet so far (still a bit fishy), but as one of the main themes for the character is to fight his abyssal heritage and try staying the hell away (pun intended) from becoming CE, Ruathar is a great PrC to aim for. Battle sorcerer on the other hand... I don't think it's quite worth it, I'll stick with Mage armor instead.

Speaking of armor: you are about to convince me on swapping Int with Dex. But is the +2 AC, Reflex and Ranged AB worth the -40 skill levels by level 20?

Epic ET: I read at some forum, that theoretically it should be similar to the Epic Mystic Theurge, which gains caster levels in one casting class at odd, the other at even levels. If so, isn't it worth it to keep levelling warlock instead, even if that means being stuck at a lower level arcane caster?
To be honest, I don't know yet. By the time I get to level 20, I'll see how much I rely on my arcane spells, and decide between the two options.
#7
ObsidianConspiracy
Aug 06, 2010 10:14:08 Might sound strange, but if you wish to continue your warlock progressions then maybe take Hellfire warlock, for Hell fire blast... which also, by the sounds of your inferal heritage plan, would also fit your character concept. Advice, however, would be to take the feat that allows you to make a strongheart vest, from magic of incarnum, if you chose that path
#8
dead_weasel
Aug 06, 2010 17:08:11
And yes, I knew I didn't want to stay a sorcerer, but I had yet to find the good enough PrC. I already checked out most form the list at the other forum, and Abjurant Champion was perhaps my best bet so far (still a bit fishy), but as one of the main themes for the character is to fight his abyssal heritage and try staying the hell away (pun intended) from becoming CE, Ruathar is a great PrC to aim for.

Upon review, I would recommend Mindbender; Mindsight is gold.

Speaking of armor: you are about to convince me on swapping Int with Dex. But is the +2 AC, Reflex and Ranged AB worth the -40 skill levels by level 20?

That depends on whether you will need those skill points for anything. If your DM gives you high checks to make, you may very well need them; if he just puts lots of low checks in your way, you could probably get away with the swap.

Either way you should keep your eyes open for ways to use your spells or abilities to circumvent skill checks - you should almost never be making Climb & Jump checks, for example. Focus on qualifying for future PrCs, getting skill synergies, and spreading your skill points as widely as possible. You can do this best by comparing the skill lists of the classes you will be taking, to ensure that you take ranks in skills when they are cheapest.

Epic ET: I read at some forum, that theoretically it should be similar to the Epic Mystic Theurge, which gains caster levels in one casting class at odd, the other at even levels. If so, isn't it worth it to keep levelling warlock instead, even if that means being stuck at a lower level arcane caster?
To be honest, I don't know yet. By the time I get to level 20, I'll see how much I rely on my arcane spells, and decide between the two options.

I had not thought of that. Straight Warlock progression is probably best, then.

An alternative would be to take a few levels in another power source (shadow magic, meldshaping, psionics, divine caster, etc.) and enter one of the other double-progression classes, but that could get confusing fast, and I cannot speak for the wording of those classes' prereqs offhand, although qualifying with Sorcerer and progressing Warlock should permit you to circumvent that issue entirely. I may be mistaken on that last point, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 giltintur Aug 05, 2010 17:48:11	Heyya! I'm about to join a -hopefully very- long campaign, in which I plan on playing with a Fey'ri Eldritch Theurge on the long run. At the moment, it seems, that it will start of with a Precocious Apprentice feat, and only level up with warlock until his final admission to the ET Prestige class. My questions would be: Which invocations to choose? Which spells to choose? Most of all: Which feats to choose? My stats are (with some fearly good dice rolling and a nice little home-brew rule of tradeof) Str: 10 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 18 Wis: 10 Cha: 18 I know, that it would be better to start of with a wizard instead, but that -and any other base class instead of the sorcerer- is totally out of question. We will start at 5. level, (Sor1/War2 +2ECL). I'm planning on getting most of the Infernal Heritage feats, are they worth it? I'm sure they go along quite well roleplayingwise... Oh, and my plan is, being a higher level warlock blaster and a lower level sorc summoner, but these are only a bit more than ideas at the moment. Any help is really appreciated.
#2 dead_weasel Aug 05, 2010 19:04:41	First of all, I would suggest that you move some of that Int elsewhere (Dex would be best, but Con, Wis or Cha could also be improved); unless you intend to help skillmonkey it does you no good. Secondly, I would suggest that you focus on a 'ranged Charisma' Warlock (research the reference here), for fairly obvious reasons: you already have the Charisma, your racial abilities already compensate for the buffs you would take otherwise, and it will let you squeeze a little use out of the ET abilities, which are pretty bad in general and for you in particular. This is your chance to plan out everything and you need to do so, because you already have a lot of overlapping choices to make: Invocations Spells Racial Abilities It would be best to use your feats to enhance the abilities you have (i.e. Flyby Attack and Precise Shot) and use spells to fill in the gaps; the Fiendish Heritage feats offer you comparatively little benefit. You are stuck with a bad racial or feat until you can retrain it (which might be never!), but even if you choose a bad spell, you never have to cast it, and you can retrain it away at your convenience. Remember to buy off your LA, if you can. What is your plan post-ET?
#3 giltintur Aug 06, 2010 3:01:49	Thanks for the answer Dead_Weasel! I am definitely planing on being a 'ranged Charisma' type, as I hope to acquire the Lord of All Essences feat at epic levels. Post-ET I don't have much plans yet, I do however wish to get at least 1 more arcane caster level -I'm not so sure about Sorcerer, but I have yet to find a classy PrC- and so being able to cast 6th level spells (even if just three of them). And I want to get least 2 Dark invocations, so I suppose I'll be levelling up at least a bit more with the warlock. I suppose that means something like Sor1/War4/ET10/ and then 1 more arcane caster and 4 more Warlock levels by level 20, in whichever order is the most convenient. After that, at the epic levels? I don't have a clue. Regarding Int: I do plan on being a skillmonkey, as we play a bit more of the social-high-fantasy type than your classical dungeon dwelling, and the DM likes asking for skillchecks. And I might be a bit of a noob, but what does LA stand for?
#4 dead_weasel Aug 06, 2010 4:50:43	I would still swap Dex and Int were I you. Moving on. Before I forget: if you plan on wearing armor, choose your spells/feats to minimize/avoid spell failure. PrCs and Battle Sorcerer exist to deal with precisely this issue. If you insist on another level of Sorcerer progression, you should use a PrC. All sorcerer offers is familiar progression; anything is better than that. Off the top of my head, Ruathar and Visionary Seeker have an easy entry requirement alongside an RP requirement; talk to your DM if you settle on one of those. Despite being a terrible fit at first glance, Ruathar could actually make a weird sort of sense, given the right circumstances. As for epic levels, I would strongly recommend epic ET; if your DM disallows it or you find working out the progression daunting, proceeding with Warlock should be adequate. Level Adjustment. If your DM allows it you can spend XP to remove LA. This has two results: it lowers your ECL, which means that you (should) receive more experience for being at a lower level than the rest of your party; and it reopens the levels you 'lost' to LA for you to take class levels. As to being a noob, I would recommend reading the FAQ; the culture has changed in the meantime but it is still a good place to begin. Once that is out of the way, you should summon your courage and delve into the SurrealDex. The forum changeovers were not kind to it, but it is still rich with resources of every kind, and even the dead links are glittering fragments of what once was. These two threads are stickied at the top of the CO boards, should you need to return to them.
#5 tr0llman Aug 06, 2010 5:23:19	I recommend Sorceror 4/Warlock 1 instead. A Chasuble of Fell Power is 8.000 gp, easily affordable when you're at ECL with 5 class levels, and allows entry to the PrC. The DMG explicitly allows magic items to satisfy PrC regquirements.
#6 giltintur Aug 06, 2010 9:48:59	Tr0llman: I can't really see the point of doing that. For one, I prefer warlock, and the feats from the warlock levels are way better than anything I would get from the 4 sorcerer levels. Dead_Weasel: I have read quite a few of these threads during the last couple of days, being noob is a bit more about never before playing an arcane caster or warlock in D&D yet and a minor language barrier, as English isn't my native. But, enough whimpering. The LA tradeoff is a great, I already stared convincing the DM about it... And yes, I knew I didn't want to stay a sorcerer, but I had yet to find the good enough PrC. I already checked out most form the list at the other forum, and Abjurant Champion was perhaps my best bet so far (still a bit fishy), but as one of the main themes for the character is to fight his abyssal heritage and try staying the hell away (pun intended) from becoming CE, Ruathar is a great PrC to aim for. Battle sorcerer on the other hand... I don't think it's quite worth it, I'll stick with Mage armor instead. Speaking of armor: you are about to convince me on swapping Int with Dex. But is the +2 AC, Reflex and Ranged AB worth the -40 skill levels by level 20? Epic ET: I read at some forum, that theoretically it should be similar to the Epic Mystic Theurge, which gains caster levels in one casting class at odd, the other at even levels. If so, isn't it worth it to keep levelling warlock instead, even if that means being stuck at a lower level arcane caster? To be honest, I don't know yet. By the time I get to level 20, I'll see how much I rely on my arcane spells, and decide between the two options.
#7 ObsidianConspiracy Aug 06, 2010 10:14:08	Might sound strange, but if you wish to continue your warlock progressions then maybe take Hellfire warlock, for Hell fire blast... which also, by the sounds of your inferal heritage plan, would also fit your character concept. Advice, however, would be to take the feat that allows you to make a strongheart vest, from magic of incarnum, if you chose that path
#8 dead_weasel Aug 06, 2010 17:08:11	And yes, I knew I didn't want to stay a sorcerer, but I had yet to find the good enough PrC. I already checked out most form the list at the other forum, and Abjurant Champion was perhaps my best bet so far (still a bit fishy), but as one of the main themes for the character is to fight his abyssal heritage and try staying the hell away (pun intended) from becoming CE, Ruathar is a great PrC to aim for. Upon review, I would recommend Mindbender; Mindsight is gold. Speaking of armor: you are about to convince me on swapping Int with Dex. But is the +2 AC, Reflex and Ranged AB worth the -40 skill levels by level 20? That depends on whether you will need those skill points for anything. If your DM gives you high checks to make, you may very well need them; if he just puts lots of low checks in your way, you could probably get away with the swap. Either way you should keep your eyes open for ways to use your spells or abilities to circumvent skill checks - you should almost never be making Climb & Jump checks, for example. Focus on qualifying for future PrCs, getting skill synergies, and spreading your skill points as widely as possible. You can do this best by comparing the skill lists of the classes you will be taking, to ensure that you take ranks in skills when they are cheapest. Epic ET: I read at some forum, that theoretically it should be similar to the Epic Mystic Theurge, which gains caster levels in one casting class at odd, the other at even levels. If so, isn't it worth it to keep levelling warlock instead, even if that means being stuck at a lower level arcane caster? To be honest, I don't know yet. By the time I get to level 20, I'll see how much I rely on my arcane spells, and decide between the two options. I had not thought of that. Straight Warlock progression is probably best, then. An alternative would be to take a few levels in another power source (shadow magic, meldshaping, psionics, divine caster, etc.) and enter one of the other double-progression classes, but that could get confusing fast, and I cannot speak for the wording of those classes' prereqs offhand, although qualifying with Sorcerer and progressing Warlock should permit you to circumvent that issue entirely. I may be mistaken on that last point, though.