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Help Not Breaking the Campaign?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dbay
Sep 12, 2012 0:10:42 Hello fellow Optimizers! I have a problem that I'm sure some of you have run into occasionally as well. The problem is basically this: I really enjoy optimizing my character. I derive a zen pleasure from sifting through splatbooks for the ideal feat and magic item, and the Eureka moment when I find one is incomparable.
The problem is that this has an unfortunate tendency to destroy campaigns, or at the least, make life difficult for my DMs. I don't want to make life difficult for my DMs. I like my DMs. My other partymembers don't, generally, optimize to any great extent -- particularly in an upcoming campaign, which will have one or two completely new players. In the last long-lasting campaign I was in, my Bard could Whirling Blade his way through gods (he did, actually, kill a deity at one point that way), dealing hundreds of damage per turn. The Bard was a deliberate attempt to avoid breaking the campaign by playing a character who specialized in buffing the party, but they wound up being mostly primary casters and I was the only person who benifited from my +5 inspire courage. Before that, I had a Rogue who could sneak attack for even more damage. The rest of the party became obselete in most cases pretty fast.
It's come down to me trying to juggle two conflicting desires: the first, to make the most powerful character possible, and the second, not to eclipse everyone else. No matter how hard I try, I get bored fast and feel cheap if I deliberately choose weak feats or spells.
What should I do? I've been thinking that what I should do is start with one hand tied behind my back, so to speak, with a weak character class or race/class combination, and then munchkin to insanity from there. The trick is finding a start that's weak enough that, with optimization added on, it's roughly as powerful as unoptimized characters.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Or alternate strategies? Thanks!
#2
Omen_of_Peace
Sep 12, 2012 8:02:01 I can't say I have that problem: I tailor my builds to be around the party level.

But if you must optimize, I see mostly only the two strategies you outlined: make others shine (be a buffer/healer/...) or nerf yourself in a way that doesn't involve feats if you must pick feats.

The other way I can think of, which probably won't work for you, is to go for flavour instead of pure optimization. So for instance, an Enchanter will have slightly higher starting Cha (at the expense of Int), he will be a focused specialist with Conjuration banned (because ), etc... You start with the character and you end up making suboptimal choices because of his/her personality. I.e. the exact opposite of what we typically do on this board. ;)
#3
Andarious-Rosethorn
Sep 12, 2012 10:15:40 See if asking (politely) the other players let you tweek their characters too. Ask them "what's your end goal?" and "what do you want your character to feel like they're doing?", questions like that "any race you had in mind?" if you're doing this your whole team (or most of it anyway) should be optimized on about the same level.

If your whole team's optimized on the same level, your GM just needs to know how to balance encounters for that party. Radical oaist does a great job with the Dead for Nothin Game. As does DisposableHero_ with the Eclpse Game.

As OoP says, you don't need to play a character that can do everything to optimize and feel good about, but it helps if you can do one thing incredibly well. I tend to do this to the point where I avoid cheese in optimiization (mostly anyway, I believe), in favor of clear rules as written and intended decisions. I error calculations conservatively when determining what my characters can do.

Good luck with not breaking your game dbay.

#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Sep 12, 2012 11:36:09
If your whole team's optimized on the same level, your GM just needs to know how to balance encounters for that party. Radical oaist does a great job with the Dead for Nothin Game. As does DisposableHero_ with the Eclpse Game.

(That's the pre-reboot page. The current one has you in it. But I'd second what you're saying: although sometimes our team is just too good to rely on fair fights, both DMs do a great job of making the challenges interesting and the story compelling.)

You can try something simple: Optimize for something outside of combat and let the rest just happen. Buffing is the usual solution here, but there are others. See the Uncanny Trapsmith or Face First builds in my signature as examples of this kind of character. You could also try specializing as a diviner, or as a character without a kill strike (i.e. an AoO tank character without Power Attack, switching out all of your special AoO attacks for Stand Still or Trip or similar ways of locking down the enemy while your team does the killing).

Long term, the best solution by far is for you to teach and help your team in improving. There are lots of ways to reflect their concepts than, say, a barbarian with Magical Aptitude and Weapon Focus.
#5
Krusk
Sep 12, 2012 15:05:58 Pick a hard concept and optimize that. Sure your concept of "Powerful wizard" ends up really powerful. What about the concept of "Pixie Barbarian". It becomes a lot harder. Optimize within constraints.
#6
dbay
Sep 12, 2012 16:31:11 Hmmm... Thanks, guys! You've given me a lot of great ideas!

Here's my plan: I'll play a class I've never done before (I'm thinking Swordsage -- I've never even opened ToB before) and try to optimize for as much coolness as possible. Is Unarmed Strike a good feat? Not remotely! But I picture my character being able to punch out baddies in a pinch, so I'll take it anyways.

And, if I start pulling ahead of the party (which I will, undoubtedly), I'll subtly point them in the right direction for magic items, feat and maybe PrC choices.

I think the combination of using unfamiliar mechanics for my character (the ToB stuff, which I've heard mixed things about but looks kind of neat) with helping the party along should do the trick.

Which brings me to my next question: do any of the books have a decent, inexpensive smokebomb analogue?
#7
Andarious-Rosethorn
Sep 12, 2012 18:53:32 If you're going Swordsage AND Unarmed Strike in the same build look at the Shadow Sun Ninja Prc. Consider a 2 level monk Dip rather than the Unarmed Strike feat, or go 3 and 1-3 levels of some other class or PRC (something with good BAB), get 8 levels of SSN. You'll max out Flurry for a solid full attack option, while keeping plenty of standard action strikes open as well as sweet boosts and counters.
#8
Krusk
Sep 13, 2012 15:12:32 The unarmed swordsage variant exists in that book, and is a pretty solid choice.
#9
dbay
Sep 13, 2012 16:47:50 No! Noooooooooo! I wanted something fun that wasn't a solid choice... Alas.

Also, I have a question: is there any way to get Sneak Attack, or a Sneak Attack-like ability as a Swordsage without multiclassing? A number of the Maneuvers in Shadow Hand seem geared to set up SA's, which is somewhat use-impaired without a way to get the ability.
#10
Andarious-Rosethorn
Sep 13, 2012 17:10:40 The 3rd level stance Assassin's Stance is Shadow Hand and gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack.
#11
dbay
Sep 13, 2012 17:31:45 Holy crap, sweet! I thought it would be, well, a lot more difficult than that. It's right there in the box. Awesome.
#12
awaken_D_M_golem
Sep 13, 2012 17:56:38 Ummm ... how about Expert or Core Monk ?
#13
Balthanon
Sep 13, 2012 23:48:17
Holy crap, sweet! I thought it would be, well, a lot more difficult than that. It's right there in the box. Awesome.

If you're trying for something that is difficult to optimize, Tome of Battle is not the route to take. Finessing it can take talent, but in general it meshes well with about everything and most of the book is solid.

Try a Truenamer instead-- buckets of flavor and the class is broken (as in the mechanic doesn't work, rather than the traditional too powerful meaning). Should work well.
#14
dbay
Sep 14, 2012 0:32:50 I've actually grown pretty fond of this Swordsage class, so I think I'll stick with it. I even made little maneuver cards. So this particular attempt may well be a lost cause.

Next campaign I'll play a balanced character. I swear. In the meantime, I'll just try to keep this one from becoming *too* godlike.
#15
Andarious-Rosethorn
Sep 14, 2012 8:44:34 Actually Swordsage is VERY balanced. Most of youra bilities are limited to Melee range, they don't really compare to an Ur-Charger for damage. You can't end a fight in one round (most of the time) like one of the big 5, and there's basically a required feat (Adaptive Style) that you don't get for free.

I'm not super well trained in Magic of Incarnum but it's got a bad scale curve from what I gather so it's hard to build a GOOD playable 1-20 build using only that. When you're done abusing your otherwise CO free party with the beatifully designed Tome of Battle, try the slightly flawed Magic of Incarnum, maybe a Totemist.
#16
Balthanon
Sep 14, 2012 9:01:28 My first martial adept actually started out as a totemist because I was playing him before the book came out. That campaign got absurd fast though, millions of gold by the time we were approaching the end, one of the characters was turned into a quasi-deity of bagpipes, and we took over the Nine Hells and remade Dragonlance in our image. (Needless to say, the rules and character build played only marginal roles in any of that.)
#17
radicaltaoist
Sep 14, 2012 9:39:31 It seems, dbay, that it's less a question of your character being godly and more a matter of your group not being familiar with the numerical scale of challenges in D&D. Swordsages are not druids and something's funny if your 'sage is romping through the game like one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dbay Sep 12, 2012 0:10:42	Hello fellow Optimizers! I have a problem that I'm sure some of you have run into occasionally as well. The problem is basically this: I really enjoy optimizing my character. I derive a zen pleasure from sifting through splatbooks for the ideal feat and magic item, and the Eureka moment when I find one is incomparable. The problem is that this has an unfortunate tendency to destroy campaigns, or at the least, make life difficult for my DMs. I don't want to make life difficult for my DMs. I like my DMs. My other partymembers don't, generally, optimize to any great extent -- particularly in an upcoming campaign, which will have one or two completely new players. In the last long-lasting campaign I was in, my Bard could Whirling Blade his way through gods (he did, actually, kill a deity at one point that way), dealing hundreds of damage per turn. The Bard was a deliberate attempt to avoid breaking the campaign by playing a character who specialized in buffing the party, but they wound up being mostly primary casters and I was the only person who benifited from my +5 inspire courage. Before that, I had a Rogue who could sneak attack for even more damage. The rest of the party became obselete in most cases pretty fast. It's come down to me trying to juggle two conflicting desires: the first, to make the most powerful character possible, and the second, not to eclipse everyone else. No matter how hard I try, I get bored fast and feel cheap if I deliberately choose weak feats or spells. What should I do? I've been thinking that what I should do is start with one hand tied behind my back, so to speak, with a weak character class or race/class combination, and then munchkin to insanity from there. The trick is finding a start that's weak enough that, with optimization added on, it's roughly as powerful as unoptimized characters. Does anyone have any suggestions? Or alternate strategies? Thanks!
#2 Omen_of_Peace Sep 12, 2012 8:02:01	I can't say I have that problem: I tailor my builds to be around the party level. But if you must optimize, I see mostly only the two strategies you outlined: make others shine (be a buffer/healer/...) or nerf yourself in a way that doesn't involve feats if you must pick feats. The other way I can think of, which probably won't work for you, is to go for flavour instead of pure optimization. So for instance, an Enchanter will have slightly higher starting Cha (at the expense of Int), he will be a focused specialist with Conjuration banned (because ), etc... You start with the character and you end up making suboptimal choices because of his/her personality. I.e. the exact opposite of what we typically do on this board. ;)
#3 Andarious-Rosethorn Sep 12, 2012 10:15:40	See if asking (politely) the other players let you tweek their characters too. Ask them "what's your end goal?" and "what do you want your character to feel like they're doing?", questions like that "any race you had in mind?" if you're doing this your whole team (or most of it anyway) should be optimized on about the same level. If your whole team's optimized on the same level, your GM just needs to know how to balance encounters for that party. Radical oaist does a great job with the Dead for Nothin Game. As does DisposableHero_ with the Eclpse Game. As OoP says, you don't need to play a character that can do everything to optimize and feel good about, but it helps if you can do one thing incredibly well. I tend to do this to the point where I avoid cheese in optimiization (mostly anyway, I believe), in favor of clear rules as written and intended decisions. I error calculations conservatively when determining what my characters can do. Good luck with not breaking your game dbay.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Sep 12, 2012 11:36:09	If your whole team's optimized on the same level, your GM just needs to know how to balance encounters for that party. Radical oaist does a great job with the Dead for Nothin Game. As does DisposableHero_ with the Eclpse Game. (That's the pre-reboot page. The current one has you in it. But I'd second what you're saying: although sometimes our team is just too good to rely on fair fights, both DMs do a great job of making the challenges interesting and the story compelling.) You can try something simple: Optimize for something outside of combat and let the rest just happen. Buffing is the usual solution here, but there are others. See the Uncanny Trapsmith or Face First builds in my signature as examples of this kind of character. You could also try specializing as a diviner, or as a character without a kill strike (i.e. an AoO tank character without Power Attack, switching out all of your special AoO attacks for Stand Still or Trip or similar ways of locking down the enemy while your team does the killing). Long term, the best solution by far is for you to teach and help your team in improving. There are lots of ways to reflect their concepts than, say, a barbarian with Magical Aptitude and Weapon Focus.
#5 Krusk Sep 12, 2012 15:05:58	Pick a hard concept and optimize that. Sure your concept of "Powerful wizard" ends up really powerful. What about the concept of "Pixie Barbarian". It becomes a lot harder. Optimize within constraints.
#6 dbay Sep 12, 2012 16:31:11	Hmmm... Thanks, guys! You've given me a lot of great ideas! Here's my plan: I'll play a class I've never done before (I'm thinking Swordsage -- I've never even opened ToB before) and try to optimize for as much coolness as possible. Is Unarmed Strike a good feat? Not remotely! But I picture my character being able to punch out baddies in a pinch, so I'll take it anyways. And, if I start pulling ahead of the party (which I will, undoubtedly), I'll subtly point them in the right direction for magic items, feat and maybe PrC choices. I think the combination of using unfamiliar mechanics for my character (the ToB stuff, which I've heard mixed things about but looks kind of neat) with helping the party along should do the trick. Which brings me to my next question: do any of the books have a decent, inexpensive smokebomb analogue?
#7 Andarious-Rosethorn Sep 12, 2012 18:53:32	If you're going Swordsage AND Unarmed Strike in the same build look at the Shadow Sun Ninja Prc. Consider a 2 level monk Dip rather than the Unarmed Strike feat, or go 3 and 1-3 levels of some other class or PRC (something with good BAB), get 8 levels of SSN. You'll max out Flurry for a solid full attack option, while keeping plenty of standard action strikes open as well as sweet boosts and counters.
#8 Krusk Sep 13, 2012 15:12:32	The unarmed swordsage variant exists in that book, and is a pretty solid choice.
#9 dbay Sep 13, 2012 16:47:50	No! Noooooooooo! I wanted something fun that wasn't a solid choice... Alas. Also, I have a question: is there any way to get Sneak Attack, or a Sneak Attack-like ability as a Swordsage without multiclassing? A number of the Maneuvers in Shadow Hand seem geared to set up SA's, which is somewhat use-impaired without a way to get the ability.
#10 Andarious-Rosethorn Sep 13, 2012 17:10:40	The 3rd level stance Assassin's Stance is Shadow Hand and gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack.
#11 dbay Sep 13, 2012 17:31:45	Holy crap, sweet! I thought it would be, well, a lot more difficult than that. It's right there in the box. Awesome.
#12 awaken_D_M_golem Sep 13, 2012 17:56:38	Ummm ... how about Expert or Core Monk ?
#13 Balthanon Sep 13, 2012 23:48:17	Holy crap, sweet! I thought it would be, well, a lot more difficult than that. It's right there in the box. Awesome. If you're trying for something that is difficult to optimize, Tome of Battle is not the route to take. Finessing it can take talent, but in general it meshes well with about everything and most of the book is solid. Try a Truenamer instead-- buckets of flavor and the class is broken (as in the mechanic doesn't work, rather than the traditional too powerful meaning). Should work well.
#14 dbay Sep 14, 2012 0:32:50	I've actually grown pretty fond of this Swordsage class, so I think I'll stick with it. I even made little maneuver cards. So this particular attempt may well be a lost cause. Next campaign I'll play a balanced character. I swear. In the meantime, I'll just try to keep this one from becoming too godlike.
#15 Andarious-Rosethorn Sep 14, 2012 8:44:34	Actually Swordsage is VERY balanced. Most of youra bilities are limited to Melee range, they don't really compare to an Ur-Charger for damage. You can't end a fight in one round (most of the time) like one of the big 5, and there's basically a required feat (Adaptive Style) that you don't get for free. I'm not super well trained in Magic of Incarnum but it's got a bad scale curve from what I gather so it's hard to build a GOOD playable 1-20 build using only that. When you're done abusing your otherwise CO free party with the beatifully designed Tome of Battle, try the slightly flawed Magic of Incarnum, maybe a Totemist.
#16 Balthanon Sep 14, 2012 9:01:28	My first martial adept actually started out as a totemist because I was playing him before the book came out. That campaign got absurd fast though, millions of gold by the time we were approaching the end, one of the characters was turned into a quasi-deity of bagpipes, and we took over the Nine Hells and remade Dragonlance in our image. (Needless to say, the rules and character build played only marginal roles in any of that.)
#17 radicaltaoist Sep 14, 2012 9:39:31	It seems, dbay, that it's less a question of your character being godly and more a matter of your group not being familiar with the numerical scale of challenges in D&D. Swordsages are not druids and something's funny if your 'sage is romping through the game like one.