Help optimize an Assassin-based build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help optimize an Assassin-based build

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
deathlessjuan
May 13, 2008 18:26:56 Hello all. I am currently attempting to make a sneaky character that has access to high level arcane magic and would like to have some input on the build.

The Build:
Rogue 3 / Spellthief 1 / Bard 1 / Assassin 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Trickster 9 (maybe a little Spellwarp Sniper)

Race:
Human (up to debate)

Stats are: (lvl 1)
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

House rules:
Fractional BAB
Fractional Saves
Spell points
--Assassins receive spell points equal to a sorcerer of the same level
--Sublime chord adds its level to the spell casting class it modifies to determin spells points per day
Uncanny Dodge / Imrpoved Uncanny Dodge
--Total character level -4 is used to determin what level rogue needs to be to sneak attack the character, unless the character is not multiclassed (ie, pure barbarian/rogue/etc)
--Levels that grant sneak attack progression stack when determining the effective rogue level

Books not Allowed:
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic
Spell Comp.
MIC
Dragon Magazines (any)
Sandstorm

Feats:
1) Two Weapon Fighting
B) ???????
3) Weapon Finesse
6) Battle Caster
9) Master Spellthief
12) Improved TWF
15) ???????
18) Greater TWF

Does anyone have any suggestions for improving the build? Less of one class, more of another? Different feats? Any skill trick suggestions?

Thanks
#2
learos
May 13, 2008 18:43:20 Is Complete Mage allowed in? If so then you might want to think rogue (or spellthief) 1/ wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster4

If you use the spontanious divination option for Complete Champion you'll have a very cautious, sneaky, almost full caster with great SA (due to Hunters Eye), & good skill points.

The Assassin PrC itself is weak, death attack is weaker, and delaying spell casting until level 10 is insanity.

Edit: Also put your 18 into Int, and the 16 into dex.
#3
deathlessjuan
May 13, 2008 19:26:36 Oh yes, everything not listed on the Books Not Allowed: list is fair game, pending DM approval.
#4
deathlessjuan
May 14, 2008 12:02:36 I ran that build by my DM. He seemed ok with it but did not feel it would fit the flavor of the campaign. I wasn't disappointed by the decision anyway. I really dislike carrying around a spellbook and getting it swiped and/or destroyed. It happens a alot when you hang around with thieves.

But aside from that. I am not taking the Assassin class because it is strong (since many believe otherwise) but because it has sneak attack + enough spell casting to qualify for sublime chord.

Anyone have any other ideas?

#5
operation_shoestring
May 14, 2008 14:17:16 Arcane trickster blows. Don't waste levels on it. Impromtu Sneak attack is the most useless class ability ever. Reach Spell + Wracking Touch does it better.

Spellthief or Factotum1/Wizard6/Unseen Seer9/Divine Oracle 4.

Persist hunter's eye for 8d6 SA. + 3d6 SA from Unseen Seer and another 1d6 from spellthief.

Human

Spellthief/Factotum 1 - (Able Learner, Master Spellthief/Knowledge Devotion)
Wizard1
Wizard2 - (Extend Spell)
Wizard3
Wizard4
Unseen Seer1 - (Practiced Spellcaster)
Unseen Seer2 - Hunter's Eye
Wizard5 - Spontaneous Divination or Domain Granted Power: Pride
Unseen Seer3 - (Skill focus: Religion [prerequisite])
Unseen Seer4
Unseen Seer5 - Guidance of the Avatar
Divine Oracle1- (Persist Spell)
Divine Oracle2
Divine Oracle3
Divine Oracle4 -(Reach Spell)
Unseen Seer6
Unseen Seer7
Unseen Seer8 - Divine Insight or Gravestrike (open -)
Wizard6
Unseen Seer9

Saves 6/8/15, BAB 11, CL 20 (25 for Divinations)

Epic progression:

Loremaster1 (Track, Epic Spellcasting)
Agent Retriever ++

Good feat options include Empower, Fell Drain, Obtain Familiar.
#6
aethios
May 14, 2008 14:57:48
Arcane trickster blows. Don't waste levels on it. Impromtu Sneak attack is the most useless class ability ever. Reach Spell + Wracking Touch does it better.

Spellthief or Factotum1/Wizard6/Unseen Seer9/Divine Oracle 4.

Persist hunter's eye for 8d6 SA. + 3d6 SA from Unseen Seer and another 1d6 from spellthief.

Human

Spellthief/Factotum 1 - (Able Learner, Master Spellthief/Knowledge Devotion)
Wizard1
Wizard2 - (Extend Spell)
Wizard3
Wizard4
Unseen Seer1 - (Practiced Spellcaster)
Unseen Seer2 - Hunter's Eye
Wizard5 - Spontaneous Divination or Domain Granted Power: Pride
Unseen Seer3 - (Skill focus: Religion [prerequisite])
Unseen Seer4
Unseen Seer5 - Guidance of the Avatar
Divine Oracle1- (Persist Spell)
Divine Oracle2
Divine Oracle3
Divine Oracle4 -(Reach Spell)
Unseen Seer6
Unseen Seer7
Unseen Seer8 - Divine Insight or Gravestrike (open -)
Wizard6
Unseen Seer9

Saves 6/8/15, BAB 11, CL 20 (25 for Divinations)

Epic progression:

Loremaster1 (Track, Epic Spellcasting)

Good feat options include Empower, Fell Drain, Obtain Familiar.
Agent Retriever ++

Might as well go Spellthief over Factotum for that progression, I think. Knowledge devotion, to me, would be a more circumstantial feat choice.
#7
operation_shoestring
May 14, 2008 15:14:55
Might as well go Spellthief over Factotum for that progression, I think. Knowledge devotion, to me, would be a more circumstantial feat choice.

Spellthief gives you more Sneak Attack, and Light armor. Factotum lets you add your INT mod to saves twice per encounter and gives you Martial Weapon prof. I actually would prefer the latter, but I suspect more people would concur with you. Knowledge Devotion is a good way of making sure you are still contributing when you run out of spells or hit an AMF, but it might be better to grab two luck feats so you can reroll saves in synergy with the INT-to-saves ability.
#8
aethios
May 14, 2008 15:37:19
Spellthief gives you more Sneak Attack, and Light armor. Factotum lets you add your INT mod to saves twice per encounter and gives you Martial Weapon prof. I actually would prefer the latter, but I suspect more people would concur with you. Knowledge Devotion is a good way of making sure you are still contributing when you run out of spells or hit an AMF, but it might be better to grab two luck feats so you can reroll saves in synergy with the INT-to-saves ability.

Those are very agreeable assessments on all accounts, but I honestly find it hard to justify limited usage over synergy...

Though, out of combat, Knowledge Devotion is a damn good addition. Either way, I guess.
#9
deathlessjuan
May 15, 2008 11:35:07 Thanks for the great advice! I will look into those.

Anyone have any suggestions that don't use wizard or spontaneous domain usage? This is a spell point - variant game, and spontaneous domains arent that useful. Besides, spellbooks are for suckers :P

EDIT: Also, Hunter's eye. Can anyone tell me the book its from? Sounds like fun.
#10
operation_shoestring
May 15, 2008 21:40:35
Thanks for the great advice! I will look into those.

EDIT: Also, Hunter's eye. Can anyone tell me the book its from? Sounds like fun.

PHB2

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deathlessjuan May 13, 2008 18:26:56	Hello all. I am currently attempting to make a sneaky character that has access to high level arcane magic and would like to have some input on the build. The Build: Rogue 3 / Spellthief 1 / Bard 1 / Assassin 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Trickster 9 (maybe a little Spellwarp Sniper) Race: Human (up to debate) Stats are: (lvl 1) Str: 12 Dex: 18 Con: 14 Int: 16 Wis: 10 Cha: 16 House rules: Fractional BAB Fractional Saves Spell points --Assassins receive spell points equal to a sorcerer of the same level --Sublime chord adds its level to the spell casting class it modifies to determin spells points per day Uncanny Dodge / Imrpoved Uncanny Dodge --Total character level -4 is used to determin what level rogue needs to be to sneak attack the character, unless the character is not multiclassed (ie, pure barbarian/rogue/etc) --Levels that grant sneak attack progression stack when determining the effective rogue level Books not Allowed: Tome of Battle Tome of Magic Spell Comp. MIC Dragon Magazines (any) Sandstorm Feats: 1) Two Weapon Fighting B) ??????? 3) Weapon Finesse 6) Battle Caster 9) Master Spellthief 12) Improved TWF 15) ??????? 18) Greater TWF Does anyone have any suggestions for improving the build? Less of one class, more of another? Different feats? Any skill trick suggestions? Thanks
#2 learos May 13, 2008 18:43:20	Is Complete Mage allowed in? If so then you might want to think rogue (or spellthief) 1/ wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster4 If you use the spontanious divination option for Complete Champion you'll have a very cautious, sneaky, almost full caster with great SA (due to Hunters Eye), & good skill points. The Assassin PrC itself is weak, death attack is weaker, and delaying spell casting until level 10 is insanity. Edit: Also put your 18 into Int, and the 16 into dex.
#3 deathlessjuan May 13, 2008 19:26:36	Oh yes, everything not listed on the Books Not Allowed: list is fair game, pending DM approval.
#4 deathlessjuan May 14, 2008 12:02:36	I ran that build by my DM. He seemed ok with it but did not feel it would fit the flavor of the campaign. I wasn't disappointed by the decision anyway. I really dislike carrying around a spellbook and getting it swiped and/or destroyed. It happens a alot when you hang around with thieves. But aside from that. I am not taking the Assassin class because it is strong (since many believe otherwise) but because it has sneak attack + enough spell casting to qualify for sublime chord. Anyone have any other ideas?
#5 operation_shoestring May 14, 2008 14:17:16	Arcane trickster blows. Don't waste levels on it. Impromtu Sneak attack is the most useless class ability ever. Reach Spell + Wracking Touch does it better. Spellthief or Factotum1/Wizard6/Unseen Seer9/Divine Oracle 4. Persist hunter's eye for 8d6 SA. + 3d6 SA from Unseen Seer and another 1d6 from spellthief. Human Spellthief/Factotum 1 - (Able Learner, Master Spellthief/Knowledge Devotion) Wizard1 Wizard2 - (Extend Spell) Wizard3 Wizard4 Unseen Seer1 - (Practiced Spellcaster) Unseen Seer2 - Hunter's Eye Wizard5 - Spontaneous Divination or Domain Granted Power: Pride Unseen Seer3 - (Skill focus: Religion [prerequisite]) Unseen Seer4 Unseen Seer5 - Guidance of the Avatar Divine Oracle1- (Persist Spell) Divine Oracle2 Divine Oracle3 Divine Oracle4 -(Reach Spell) Unseen Seer6 Unseen Seer7 Unseen Seer8 - Divine Insight or Gravestrike (open -) Wizard6 Unseen Seer9 Saves 6/8/15, BAB 11, CL 20 (25 for Divinations) Epic progression: Loremaster1 (Track, Epic Spellcasting) Agent Retriever ++ Good feat options include Empower, Fell Drain, Obtain Familiar.
#6 aethios May 14, 2008 14:57:48	Arcane trickster blows. Don't waste levels on it. Impromtu Sneak attack is the most useless class ability ever. Reach Spell + Wracking Touch does it better. Spellthief or Factotum1/Wizard6/Unseen Seer9/Divine Oracle 4. Persist hunter's eye for 8d6 SA. + 3d6 SA from Unseen Seer and another 1d6 from spellthief. Human Spellthief/Factotum 1 - (Able Learner, Master Spellthief/Knowledge Devotion) Wizard1 Wizard2 - (Extend Spell) Wizard3 Wizard4 Unseen Seer1 - (Practiced Spellcaster) Unseen Seer2 - Hunter's Eye Wizard5 - Spontaneous Divination or Domain Granted Power: Pride Unseen Seer3 - (Skill focus: Religion [prerequisite]) Unseen Seer4 Unseen Seer5 - Guidance of the Avatar Divine Oracle1- (Persist Spell) Divine Oracle2 Divine Oracle3 Divine Oracle4 -(Reach Spell) Unseen Seer6 Unseen Seer7 Unseen Seer8 - Divine Insight or Gravestrike (open -) Wizard6 Unseen Seer9 Saves 6/8/15, BAB 11, CL 20 (25 for Divinations) Epic progression: Loremaster1 (Track, Epic Spellcasting) Good feat options include Empower, Fell Drain, Obtain Familiar. Agent Retriever ++ Might as well go Spellthief over Factotum for that progression, I think. Knowledge devotion, to me, would be a more circumstantial feat choice.
#7 operation_shoestring May 14, 2008 15:14:55	Might as well go Spellthief over Factotum for that progression, I think. Knowledge devotion, to me, would be a more circumstantial feat choice. Spellthief gives you more Sneak Attack, and Light armor. Factotum lets you add your INT mod to saves twice per encounter and gives you Martial Weapon prof. I actually would prefer the latter, but I suspect more people would concur with you. Knowledge Devotion is a good way of making sure you are still contributing when you run out of spells or hit an AMF, but it might be better to grab two luck feats so you can reroll saves in synergy with the INT-to-saves ability.
#8 aethios May 14, 2008 15:37:19	Spellthief gives you more Sneak Attack, and Light armor. Factotum lets you add your INT mod to saves twice per encounter and gives you Martial Weapon prof. I actually would prefer the latter, but I suspect more people would concur with you. Knowledge Devotion is a good way of making sure you are still contributing when you run out of spells or hit an AMF, but it might be better to grab two luck feats so you can reroll saves in synergy with the INT-to-saves ability. Those are very agreeable assessments on all accounts, but I honestly find it hard to justify limited usage over synergy... Though, out of combat, Knowledge Devotion is a damn good addition. Either way, I guess.
#9 deathlessjuan May 15, 2008 11:35:07	Thanks for the great advice! I will look into those. Anyone have any suggestions that don't use wizard or spontaneous domain usage? This is a spell point - variant game, and spontaneous domains arent that useful. Besides, spellbooks are for suckers :P EDIT: Also, Hunter's eye. Can anyone tell me the book its from? Sounds like fun.
#10 operation_shoestring May 15, 2008 21:40:35	Thanks for the great advice! I will look into those. EDIT: Also, Hunter's eye. Can anyone tell me the book its from? Sounds like fun. PHB2