Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 genuine Feb 10, 2010 8:52:31	So, here's the lowdown. Stats were via a rather strict method, as was race selection. Completes & Races books are available, ToB is out, UA is out. The basic premise of the game is a dungeon crawl; it's not officially low magic, but treasure has been sparse (we started with no equipment whatsoever), and our DM hasn't been pulling any punches. Stats (After race increases): 17 Str, 14 dex, 13 con, 12 int, 6 wis, 5 cha. So far I've been playing a duskblade, and he's been remarkably resilient (he's the only character to survive since we began). Build so far: Duskblade 1 - Power Attack Duskblade 2 Duskblade 3 - Battle Caster I want to start planning ahead - Originally I was looking at just surviving the level, so to speak, but I really aught to start planning for advancement, working for a PRC, etc. So, I'd like some advice for progression. I thought I might try out the Outcast champion PrC from Races of Destiny (It's always looked interesting, but I almost never run half-elfs or half-orcs). Also, I'm struggling because he doesn't quite meet the prereqs for a number of attractive feats (Arcane Strike and Combat expertise, I'm looking at you).
#2 dawnmor Feb 10, 2010 13:14:48	1) its MEET not MEAT. 2) I suggest continuing on with Duskblade till around level 10, then go into Eldritch Knight.
#3 genuine Feb 10, 2010 14:41:31	*Fixing the typo (I'm better than that!) Should I really stick in there that long? I suppose I can use +1 Int at level 8 to access the level 3 spells. Is there any particular reason other than the second third level spell and a second quick cast a day?
#4 dawnmor Feb 10, 2010 19:30:12	I dont know all that much about duskblades and I cant offer much advice.  Now, if you want to do a Arcane type role, then I suggest going with Duskblade/Wizard/Ultimate Magus.  A fellow DND who did a Diary about that type of character wanders around here somewhere.  But from what I am getting your character is already in play.  So its not much I can do. If you wish to continue with the duskblade and if TOB is allowed, I suppose you could do a Duskblade6/Swordsage 4/JPM 10. That is if you have a high wisdom.  But if you have a high Int and I think Duskblade goes off Int, you may do well with doing a Duskblade, Wizard, Ultimate Magus.  Thats a good combination right there.
#5 genuine Feb 10, 2010 19:36:17	That is if you have a high wisdom.  But if you have a high Int and I think Duskblade goes off Int, you may do well with doing a Duskblade, Wizard, Ultimate Magus.  Thats a good combination right there. That is the nub of the problem right there. He has an Intelligence of 12, Wisdom of 6 and Charisma of 5. That sharply limits the casting available. I originally chose duskblade because with my rolls it would take the best advantage of a high Str, Dex, and Con while still being relatively effective with no equipment (he was level 2 before he got anything better than padded armor and a short-sword; Shocking touch was responsible for about half the damage he put out).
#6 bruceleeroy Feb 10, 2010 20:20:00	That is the nub of the problem right there. He has an Intelligence of 12, Wisdom of 6 and Charisma of 5. That sharply limits the casting available. That sharply limits everything he can do, right there. He's functionally retarded. Anything more socially advanced than the most basic teamwork is going to leave him bewildered. I suppose some DM's enjoy enforcing critically flawed characters. I've never seen the point. Anyways, a level of feat-rogue might come in handy for some extra skill points, trapfinding and a fighter feat.
#7 dawnmor Feb 11, 2010 22:13:42	Genuine: When your posting for help with a character even when its a character your playing, its usually quite nice and helpful to state the stat's of the character.  That way everyone can assist you so much better. But it can be saved..........Duskblade 6/Barb 4/Rage mage 10.  Or Duskblade 6/Crusader 14.  And you get 9th level maneuvers with that build but your casting is lacking but as you said you dont have a whole lot of Int then you dont have to worry about casting. However, I am curious, WHY! did you choose a spell casting class when you knew before hand you would have a low Mental Stat's to begin with?.  Duskblades require High Str, Dex, Con and Int, Essentially making them a MAD Class.  Your group is quite confusing and I suggest you shoot your character and start from scratch.
#8 genuine Feb 12, 2010 8:12:51	Genuine: When your posting for help with a character even when its a character your playing, its usually quite nice and helpful to state the stat's of the character.  That way everyone can assist you so much better. See first post, paragraph 3. But it can be saved..........Duskblade 6/Barb 4/Rage mage 10.  Or Duskblade 6/Crusader 14.  And you get 9th level maneuvers with that build but your casting is lacking but as you said you dont have a whole lot of Int then you dont have to worry about casting. However, I am curious, WHY! did you choose a spell casting class when you knew before hand you would have a low Mental Stat's to begin with?.  Duskblades require High Str, Dex, Con and Int, Essentially making them a MAD Class.  Your group is quite confusing and I suggest you shoot your character and start from scratch. I chose the caster class because A) He had no equipment at all for the first 4 combat encounters, and I knew that would be the case before I made the guy. Similarly, he's at level 3 now and only has managed to get ahold of leather armor, a buckler, and a longsword. B) I honestly expected that he wouldn't survive as long as he has - every other of the six players in the game are on their third character, somehow the half-orc has survived since the beginning (Lucky die rolls and a fair chuck of time spent disabled). He was quite successful early on, but he's only just now beginning to fall behind the other party members. So what I thought was a throw-away-destined-for-death character has become the de-facto party leader, crippling wisdom, charisma and all. That means that now I'm interested in redeeming the build, so to speak, but as BruceLeroy said, it's a difficult optimization challenge, which is why I came here. That being said, I hadn't considered the rage-mage route, I'm going to have to look that over and see what I can come up with. Thank you.
#9 phaedrusxy Feb 12, 2010 12:16:36	If you can use Tome of Battle, you might consider Crusader/Jade Phoenix Mage. The crusader stuff that actually relies on charisma isn't really worth much anyway, and I don't think any of the maneuvers rely on it. Crusaders can be insanely hard to kill, especially if you take the Stone Power feat and get a bit of damage reduction somehow (even from the Stone Dragon strike that gives you DR 5/adamantine).
#10 streamofthesky Feb 13, 2010 23:40:37	What spells do you know currently? You need to raise that int score (though for the level 4 increase, str to 18 so you can add +6 damage with a 2H weapon is probably better).  Your casting depends on it, and you seem to want Expertise.  Getting con to 14 would be nice, but int and str should be by far the priorities. Outcast Champion is an interesting class, but it's probably not worth lost casting levels.  Duskblade 20 might not be a bad idea.  Without Tome of Battle, I really can't think of a prestige class that's worth taking over continuing in Duskblade.  As far as multiclassing...your mental stats are too awful for another casting class to make much sense.  Barb 1 for Pounce (C.Champion variant), or Barb 2 to also pick up Uncanny Dodge, might be worthwhile later on.  Like say...after Duskblade 13 (it's 13, right?) when you have the ability to full attack channel a spell, so you can also deliver that from a charge. *checks the half-orc barbarian racial sub. levels*  Wow...those are pretty awful... Nevermind that idea.
#11 NiteCyper Feb 14, 2010 4:01:32	If your DM allows, rebuilding is the answer. "...Whether your dwarf fighter just regrets a single bad feat choice or wishes he were actually a half-orc barbarian or an elf sorcerer, Chapter 8 offers rules and advice that covers the subject of character rebuilding from start to finish." - Player's Handbook II > Introduction "It’s true that part of the D&D game’s challenge is making smart choices in creating or advancing your char- acter. But a DM who forces someone to play a character he doesn’t find enjoyable isn’t making the game fun for that player or the others at the table. In such a situation, the player usually either throws away the character and rolls up a new one, or quits the game. If your campaign values character continuity (as many campaigns do), nei- ther of those outcomes is especially attractive. Why force Mike to throw away the elf fighter he’s been playing for three months just because he made a couple of bad feat choices, when allowing him to change those choices would be so much better for the storyline? If Mialee has been an integral part of the campaign since Day 1 but has regretted being an elf since Day 2, wouldn’t it be better to let her become the halfling she would prefer to be by undergoing a dramatic transformation at the Necrotic Cradle (see page 203) than to abruptly replace her with Liamee the halfling wizard? The fact that Liamee the halfling coincidentally has the same spells, feats, skill ranks, and familiar as Mialee the elf did but has no connection to the campaign or the rest of the party is stretching credulity perhaps a bit too far.   This chapter presents rules for revising various aspects of your character during play. With this system, you can modify elements of your character to better fi   t your vision of who your character should be—both to meet the needs of the party and to face the threats presented during the course of an entire campaign. Though character revision does allow you to “rewrite” certain elements of your charac- ter, the rules presented here ensure that the changes remain within reason and do not upset the story that has already been created by each character’s deeds in the campaign." "Retraining allows you to change a small aspect of your char- acter, but rebuilding is a much more drastic step. This method of character revision allows you to change your character’s ability scores, class levels, background, templates, or even race. You can change as many of these aspects at once as you wish, though such alterations require great effort—and often great sacrifi  ce as well." I feel like leaving off with some words of wisdom from the "THE EVERYTHING GOES GOSPELS" by JanusJones. Hmm...the Gospel of Getting Out shan't suffice if your DM argues the fun is in the challenge from chance.  Ah, perhaps the Gospel of Shared Knowledge with the Gospel of the Caster Conundrum. "Perhaps - and I'm just putting this out there - what's needed is not a nerf, but rather an improvement in the OTHER classes. Consider: casters currently (and I do mean ALL casters, not just CODzilla) are, at all but the lowest levels, FAR more effective than other builds. Melee fighters can't come close to keeping up damage-wise." "Is it possible to make effective fighters (note I'm using this term in the general sense, not in the class-specific one) using the current rules? Yes, but it takes a LOT of effort and the result is, at best, two-dimensional. What's worse, even the most cleverly designed melee type will still, in the end, lose out to casters. Tome of Battle went a LOOOOONG way towards solving the crippling weakness attached to playing a melee character, granted. Casters are still better, but ToB has made melee fun again - and flavorful, too!" "Character classes are not equal. It's flat FACT that Clerics and Druids are BETTER than the other base classes. The same is true of feats, equipment, spells - NONE are equal. NONE. Therefore, the idea that preventing use of sources is somehow preventing "imbalance" is completely farcical. You can easily make an incredibly strong character using only the PHB. Unfortunately, that player will be limited to choosing Cleric or Druid. That limits the flavor of the game; saying "if you want to be truly heroic, you can only play one of these two archetypes" is a ridiculous and offensive attitude. You'll argue that what you're really saying is that "every character archetype should be playable and viable regardless." I agree whole-heartedly. The problem comes in execution - you seem to think that somehow, magically, the DM should be able to micro-manage every encounter so that even the suck-tacular classes and builds find a way to be useful (despite inherent system imbalance and badly designed and weak abilities). I think that's TOO MUCH for a DM to manage! Instead of pretending that "we'll all have more fun if the DM gimps the heroes and everybody sucks" or that "I'm a ninja even though I can't do anything that ninjas can," I'm advocating allowing enough supplements that people can actually PLAY the heroes they WANT to." As most would argue, the "Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords" supplement only attempts to fill the disparity in power levels between casters and non-casters of the Core rule-set. So, why does your DM disallow it? Reference(s): Player's Handbook II > Chapter Eight > Rebuilding your character > page 191 onwards - yfrog.com/hqphbii191ch8px JanusJones > THE EIGHT TRACTS OF THE UNIVERSALIST DOCTRINE, also known as THE EVERYTHING GOES GOSPELS - community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...