human LG
STR 18 + 8 = 26 belt of ? STR +8
DEX 18 + 6 = 24 gloves of DEX +6
CON 18 + 2 = 20 forget the item but something +2
INT 14 + 0 = 14
WIS 18 + 4 = 22 4,8,12,16 lvl stat increases
CHA 16 + 0 = 16
he worships pelor
Was told vow of poverty is out!
any other feats are open.
have 85000g left to play with also. Need skills and feats plus anything else would be helpful. Used the varient from quintessental clr 2 that i sac my one of my domains to allow free cross classing between monk and clr DM ruled to only drop 1 so i have the STR domain
I would not sacrifice a domain to multiclass between monk. Simply take all your monk levels first, and do the rest as cleric. The nice thing about the monk's multiclass penalties is that you do not lose your monk abilities when you multiclass like a paladin does.
Does your DM allow Divine Metamagic (from Complete Divine)? If so, take the feats Extend Spell, Persistant Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell). This will allow you to put buffs on yourself that last all day long! Divine Power and Reightous Might are two popular favorites. You will want to spend some money on Night Sticks (Libris Mortis) to get Turn Undead attempts, or spend a feat on Extra Turning failing that.
As for skills, Concentration is a must. Knowledge (Religion) is another goodie, and you might get some milage out of Spellcraft. Beyond that, it's really up to you.
I have to know more about what you really want out of your character to give you any further advice.
You wouldn't want VoP anyway at level 18...
Did you actually buy that +8 Str item? Because if it is under the same rules as most +8 items (according to Epic Level Handbook), that's 640,000 gp. You can do a lot better (if it was a DM gimme, even, selling it would be more beneficial for now)
Personally, I would focus on getting Miracle (or whatever spells you can get, which means you'd have to drop some Monk levels- see if you can get a feat approved that lets you multiclass freely between Monk/Cleric, levels stack for Unarmed damage and Turning Attempts- about balanced with the other 'levels stack' feats). Monk 9 is a good stopping point for Monks. Unfortunately, for a Monk/Cleric, it is sub-op.
The usual build is Monk 2/Cleric 3/Sacred Fist 10/Cleric 5
Switch out levels 4+ of Cleric for Sacred Fist(Complete Divine)
grab some way to deal ranged damage without using weapons. Being able to fly at will is good too.
If you want 9th level casting
Monk 2 / Cleric 4 / Sacred Fist 7 / Cleric 7
But you need to use magic weapon or magic fang (since VoP is out)
If you just want to kick teeth in with some support casting
Monk 9 / Cleric 1 / Sacred Fist 10
With either of these, particularly more so with the strong casting of the first, consider swapping in 2 levels of Radiant Servant of Pelor for Empowered Healing, Divine Health, Extra Greater Turning, etc. Seems appropriate for your background as well.
Feats:
Combat Casting (for Sacred Fist prereq)
Extra Turning (if you want to go into Radiant Servant)
Improved Natural Attack
Touch of Healing
Practiced Spellcaster (if you care about your caster level at all)
Superior Unarmed Strike (if you don't get a Monk's Belt)
I like Travel Domain & Travel Devotion for Sacred Fist...
With either of these you need not worry about multiclassing penalties / re-entry and giving up a domain.
Ninth Level Divine Spells as well as possibility of persist cheese.
Feats
Show
Monk stuff
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Karmic Strike
Double Hit
Increase Reach for AoO
Deformity (tall), vile feat, Heroes of Horror, +5'
Inhuman Reach, aberrant feat, Lords of Madness, +5' -1 attack rolls may not have to take the neg
More Types of Attack
Deepspawn (feat, Lords of Madness) - gain two tentacle attacks 2 tentacles at -5 bab.
Deformity (teeth), 1d4 Bite
AC Improvement
Deformity (skin), +1 AC Stacks If Taken Multiple Times
Willing Deformity is required for all deforms.
Cleric Goodness
Just go DMM route
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Karmic Strike
Double Hit
Increase Reach for AoO
Deformity (tall), vile feat, Heroes of Horror, +5'
Inhuman Reach, aberrant feat, Lords of Madness, +5' -1 attack rolls may not have to take the neg
More Types of Attack
Deepspawn (feat, Lords of Madness) - gain two tentacle attacks 2 tentacles at -5 bab.
Deformity (teeth), 1d4 Bite
AC Improvement
Deformity (skin), +1 AC Stacks If Taken Multiple Times
Willing Deformity is required for all deforms.
Cleric Goodness
Just go DMM route
Monk 2, Cleric5, SF 3, Cleric rest. Take monk's belt, monk's tattoo for Unarmed damage of lvl 13 monk (2d6). CL 18 and 9th level spells, unlike what you get when you take more SF. That's important, because only 9th level spells get you Miracle, and only Miracle gets you Giant Size.
And only Giant size lets you kick major butt. (Well, that's not true, but still.... you could take Shapechange over animal domain and get spontaneous domain casting over one of the various routes. Then fight in any colossal form you can get with shapechange + enjoy some natural attacks to boot. But hey, it's SHAPECHANGE)
This un-optimised (yes, it actually is) aproach will net you 8d6 base unarmed damage, 8d8 with INA(Unarmed Strike). If you find that "greater mighty wallop" spell, which is in some obscure source, you'll be able to easily boost that even further. Warfist or Ectoplasmic fist are other utensils for such a character, albeit their use remains questionable, I think you would have to UMD them.
One thing to note is that this character will be easier to play if you take your monk levels later, i.e. after cleric level 7. The reason is that you'll have Divine Power at Cleric 7, and that will increase your chance to hit quite a bit with Flurry. It could be argued that you don't need Monk 2 for those 2d6, Monk 1 would be enough, unfortunately the bonuses from Monk 2 are really nice, two feats. Meeting prereqs. for SF would be hard without that.
This character needs two high attributes (Con and Wis, while Wis remains primary). It benefits (eventually, when you stop wearing armour at lvl 8) from a high dex, and also from high str, although you'll be able to buff that to virtual infinity later on (Greater Consumptive Field). Int is dump, and Cha is not even secondary - unless Nightsticks are not allowed.
If you like, you could take a single level of Hierophant as your 20th level (you automatically qualify for this, unless you really build wrongly). This will likely as not cost you a single spell of a few levels, BUT allow you to legally persist "Owl's Insight", since you will give a fixed range of 30ft to all touch spells. I don't know if anything else can replicate this "Divine Reach" ability. Now Owl's insight will then gain you at least 2 bonus spell slots/level as well as big +5 boost to your save DCs, because you can now boost your Wis with a nice big +10 insight bonus all day (with practiced Spellcaster or any caster level boost to 20). All day means you can prepare those bonus spells next day - just don't get dispelled. Always keep a ring of counterspells active and filled with Greater Dispel Magic.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, be lawful neutral. There are simply too many good evil spells to ever be good.
[edit]previous poster posted while I was typing. His build is probably better, but this one is simpler without giving up too much.[/edit]
SF has full casting advancement. Text trumps table. There is no reason to ever go back to cleric. +1 for Monk2/Cleric4/SacredFist10/something 4
that's the build you're looking for.
Pelor's alignment is NG. So going LN and throwing around evil spells... well, see if your deity grants you your spells for the day...
The reason to go back to Cleric is
1. Returning to go at least Cleric7 to get the most out of your turning attempts - to fuel things like Travel Devotion or Divine Metamagic, if your next PrC doesn't advance turning, as Sacred Fist doesn't advance turning.
2. Can't afford the feats to get into another appropriate PrC
Stacking Superior Unarmed Strike, Monk's Belt and Monk's Tattoo has been debated. I don't know if it's been answered in the errata/official FAQ.
Likewise, the Text Trumps Table argument... again check the errata/official FAQ or with your DM.
I'd actually like to know if there are 'official' responses to these myself, although honestly I haven't looked that hard... I just keep seeing it argued.
The reason to go back to Cleric is
1. Returning to go at least Cleric7 to get the most out of your turning attempts - to fuel things like Travel Devotion or Divine Metamagic, if your next PrC doesn't advance turning, as Sacred Fist doesn't advance turning.
2. Can't afford the feats to get into another appropriate PrC
All you care about are Turn Attempts per day for DMM. Extra cleric levels don't give you more. They give you absolutely nothing that a full casting PrC would give you, except a higher effective cleric level for turning. If you don't care about that, you are always better off going into a PrC as a cleric.
Likewise, the Text Trumps Table argument... again check the errata/official FAQ or with your DM.
Text trumps table IS the official response from WotC. I am pretty sure this is from the FAQ, but am too lazy to look it up. It might have been in the Errata file.
Text trumps table IS the official response from WotC. I am pretty sure this is from the FAQ, but am too lazy to look it up. It might have been in the Errata file.
It's in the PHB eratta and some (mabye all?) others too. The second sentence reads:
[...]One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry.
Text trumps table IS the official response from WotC. I am pretty sure this is from the FAQ, but am too lazy to look it up. It might have been in the Errata file.
Duh, WOTC isn't that smart. Well, if SF gives full progression, definitely go sacred fist.
For examply, if I take a Thri-Kreen, wouldn't the 2d10 base plus all the nifty stuff of INA, Multiattack, Improve Multi attack, Greater Multiattack, etc., make the Monk better once he start flurrying (about 14 attacks a round)?
Which means anybody with Girallon's Blessing and TWF will gain the same ability.
I don't even want to go into the maneuvers that make Swordsage better. BUT you can pretty feasably just add a few levels of Swordsage late. Although at that point Warblade might make more sense.
Arguably Multiweapon fighting replaces Two-weapon fighting feats as soon as you have more than two arms. (You could argue that from the wording.)
Which means anybody with Girallon's Blessing and TWF will gain the same ability.
I don't even want to go into the maneuvers that make Swordsage better. BUT you can pretty feasably just add a few levels of Swordsage late. Although at that point Warblade might make more sense.
I wouldn't think so. The requirements for MWF is much higher than TWF (+11BAB vs +6, for IMWF, vs ITWF, for example).
However, that isn't my question. My question is, why would the unarmed Swordsage (with his 2d6 base damage max if he takes Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike) be as good as a Monk, especially since he doesn't get Flurry? I am talking about a pure level 20 build here.
I wouldn't think so. The requirements for MWF is much higher than TWF (+11BAB vs +6, for IMWF, vs ITWF, for example).
However, that isn't my question. My question is, why would the unarmed Swordsage (with his 2d6 base damage max if he takes Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike) be as good as a Monk, especially since he doesn't get Flurry? I am talking about a pure level 20 build here.
Hmm, ok, missed that bit about the prereqs.
In a pure lvl 20 build I guess the monk would do more damage/hit. But then, Monk is a class that's two levels long
. Also, the swordsage could readily boost his attacks with his abilities.However, thanks to the fantastic rules of the TOB, you can have BOTH, or rather, almost everything. 20th level monk damage, 9th level divine spells (a few) AND one level of any TOB class for initiator level 10 and 5th level maneuvers. Don't know if that will be worthwhile, but for a meleer, I guess you can make something from it.
Thanks for the reference point on text > table. I'll have to try and fly that by my DM if I end up dying and playing a SF as my next reroll.
thx all
In a pure lvl 20 build I guess the monk would do more damage/hit. But then, Monk is a class that's two levels long
However, thanks to the fantastic rules of the TOB, you can have BOTH, or rather, almost everything. 20th level monk damage, 9th level divine spells (a few) AND one level of any TOB class for initiator level 10 and 5th level maneuvers. Don't know if that will be worthwhile, but for a meleer, I guess you can make something from it.
See, this is where I get lost
You have to spend feats to pick maneuvres, right (even though your initiator level does go up)? Wouldn't that be bad for someone that is going down the TWF/MWF route as they tend to be feat starved? Also, for Monks, don't you really want to get to at least level 11 to get the Greater Flurry, or 9 for no penalties on Flurry? Why is it a 2 level class?As you might have surmised, ToB is not my strong suit
See, this is where I get lost
As you might have surmised, ToB is not my strong suit
It's not mine, either. I've read a few parts of the TOB about twice, which means I'll leave the actual advice to the experts, BUT: You CAN take maneuvers through feats, but that's only advisable in a few cases, where you really need the prereqs. It can be advisable for prereqs.
Your initiator level for any TOB class (Crusader, Sword Sage, Warblade) is 1/2 your levels in all other classes + your level in your that TOB class. Hence, at level 20, you get 9 initiator levels plus the one level of actual TOB class. The only downside is that you must take a level 1 stance at first TOB class level, I think. Also, you won't meet the prereqs for many higher maneuvers.
And of course, you are most certainly feat starved.
Why do people say that unarmed Swordsage is better than the Monk?
For examply, if I take a Thri-Kreen, wouldn't the 2d10 base plus all the nifty stuff of INA, Multiattack, Improve Multi attack, Greater Multiattack, etc., make the Monk better once he start flurrying (about 14 attacks a round)?
You must be referring to multiweapon fighting probably.
A swordsage 20 (without TWF feats) will have the monk's unarmed damage, better skill points, wisdom to damage, higher initiative and of course a load of maneuvers.
For example, time stands still will let you full attack twice. Maneuvers are generally like spells and their versatility is very nice.
You must be referring to multiweapon fighting probably.
A swordsage 20 (without TWF feats) will have the monk's unarmed damage, better skill points, wisdom to damage, higher initiative and of course a load of maneuvers.
For example, time stands still will let you full attack twice. Maneuvers are generally like spells and their versatility is very nice.
Yes, MWF. How does the Swordsage get the Monk's unarmed damage? I thought he did normal unarmed damage (1d3)?
Oh, unarmed swordsage is so much better if that's available to you. Cleric 4/Swordsage 2/Sacred Fist 10/Something 4.
Cleric 5 / Swordsage 1 / Sacred Fist 7 / RKV 7
9th level spells, Divine Impetus, Divine Recovery, Monk's Belt for the Wis to AC.
how can a cleric get owls insight if it's a one the druids spell list?
Miracle. Which is why it's neat to get 9th level spells.
Ur priest would give you the much better spell level progression.
You'll have to give up Pelor. If you're not hell bent on worship the god of all that's bright and shiny, that would make you mechanically more powerful as
Turning attempts are easy to get with some nightstick cheese.
Feats are always going to be scarce, but if you want, we can see if we cant get DMM persist cheese to make you a decent buffed gish.
Divine Power plus flurry sounds nice
standard procedure on Optimizing- give them what they ask for (flavor-wise, anyway). If you can secure with their base build, that's awesome, though trading stuffs for SF was all but necessary.
Mechanically, Ur-Priest is stronger (and full of cheese, but we won't go there), however, if the OP wants a Unarmed Cleric of Pelor, that is what he should get.
Back to the build... Swordsage usually trumps Monk, but SF requires Stunning Fist, which is a pain to get w/out monk, and (because the original SS build lacked it) you need two SS levels, at least, to secure Wis to AC. (Jury is out as to whether or not Monk's Belt gives Wis to AC- most say no)
I don't know why people keep pushing cleric.
Ur priest would give you the much better spell level progression.
Because Ur-Priests are evil, overpowered, and cheesy, and many DMs ban them. Now, I am currently playing one, and if they are allowed they are certainly powerful, but they won't work for every game. That's why I don't suggest them for just everyone.
(Jury is out as to whether or not Monk's Belt gives Wis to AC- most say no)
Duh.... it's in the rules. The wording is very precise in that respect, even without custserv.
Ur-Priests are certainly nice for a low- to mid-level game. But quite frankly, I like having more then 1+bonus 9th level spells at some point. Unless you can really gain a big bonus by taking Ur-priest, it will lose it's appeal at high levels.
YES it's nice for a combination with TOB classes for 9th level spells and 9th level manuevers - since your focus will be on combat. It may also be nice for other combination of classes. But generally I must say at high levels Ur-priest doesn't compare to real divine casting.
If I want 9th level spells at lvl 15 I'll take Ur-priest. Or if I have a high LA or RHD character it might be nice. But I doubt that it's worthwhile if you really play to 20 and continue the campaign for a significant time AT level 20 - at least if you want to play a primary caster.
Also, having to be evil isn't to my liking. Having to be non-good is fine, but evil is a real restriction.
Duh.... it's in the rules. The wording is very precise in that respect, even without custserv.
Ur-Priests are certainly nice for a low- to mid-level game. But quite frankly, I like having more then 1+bonus 9th level spells at some point. Unless you can really gain a big bonus by taking Ur-priest, it will lose it's appeal at high levels.
YES it's nice for a combination with TOB classes for 9th level spells and 9th level manuevers - since your focus will be on combat. It may also be nice for other combination of classes. But generally I must say at high levels Ur-priest doesn't compare to real divine casting.
If I want 9th level spells at lvl 15 I'll take Ur-priest. Or if I have a high LA or RHD character it might be nice. But I doubt that it's worthwhile if you really play to 20 and continue the campaign for a significant time AT level 20 - at least if you want to play a primary caster.
Also, having to be evil isn't to my liking. Having to be non-good is fine, but evil is a real restriction.
The best thing about Ur-Priest is to get someone to call an Efreet (Planar Ally/Binding, etc.) and steal his 3 wishes/day. Bang. 3 wishes/day for the rest of your life for free. Add in levels in Dweomerkeeper and you can have up to 7 wishes/day for free.