My DM has allowed me to take the Words of Creation Feat (Book of Exalted Deeds). There is NO exp penalty for multiclassing, and in general is a pretty high powered game. I also plan on taking the Leadership feat.
What would my best approach at optimization of this character be? Going SC for the caster levels, 20 levels of bardic music, or a mix of PRCs and base classes?
I'd love some advice!
EDIT: I really like the idea of blowing up Inspire Courage, but it looks like taking the PRCs would severely hinder that ability.
Human Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard3/Virtuoso1/SubChord1/Virtuoso9
1 Melodic Casting
H Dragonfire Inspiration
3 Song of the Heart
6 Mindsight
9 Word of Creation
12 Any
15 Any
18 Any
Standard bard gear, Vest of Legends, 2ish Badges of Valor, that one lute that gives you +1 bard song, +cha item, +resistance item, +con item, 2-3Anklets of Translocation, any other bardic gear worth having.
Make sure you use Inspirational Boost (Bard1, SpC) before starting a song, and Badge of Valor immediately after. Once you have a song up, you can leave it up as long as you want and cast all the spells you want via Melodic Casting.
I personally like more melee based bards, but if you want to be casty try this.
Human Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard3/Virtuoso1/SubChord1/Virtuoso9
1 Melodic Casting
H Dragonfire Inspiration
3 Song of the Heart
6 Mindsight
9 Word of Creation
12 Any
15 Any
18 Any
Standard bard gear, Vest of Legends, 2ish Badges of Valor, that one lute that gives you +1 bard song, +cha item, +resistance item, +con item, 2-3Anklets of Translocation, any other bardic gear worth having.
Make sure you use Inspirational Boost (Bard1, SpC) before starting a song, and Badge of Valor immediately after. Once you have a song up, you can leave it up as long as you want and cast all the spells you want via Melodic Casting.
I'll have to take a look at mindbender prc, I don't think I've read it yet. I'm also having trouble finding the Dragonfire Inspiration feat.
How is he getting the dragonblood subtype requirement for that feat though?
Dragonfire Insp is in Dragon Magic, in the feats section.
Dragonfire Inspiration is in dragon magic, page 17.
How is he getting the dragonblood subtype requirement for that feat though?
Silverbrow Human, loses 1 skill point per level, gains Dragonblooded subtype. Done and Done.
Allows you to roll twice on ALL knowledge skills, and take the higher of the two. At level 10, your odds of knowing something relevant are pretty good.
sublime chord to virtuoso is probably the best progression out there for you.
Virtuoso is a good progression for SC. Depending on which way you want to take it, Abjurant Champion and Eldrich Knight can also be good.
I personally like more melee based bards, but if you want to be casty try this.
Human Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard3/Virtuoso1/SubChord1/Virtuoso9
1 Melodic Casting
H Dragonfire Inspiration
3 Song of the Heart
6 Mindsight
9 Word of Creation
12 Any
15 Any
18 Any
Standard bard gear, Vest of Legends, 2ish Badges of Valor, that one lute that gives you +1 bard song, +cha item, +resistance item, +con item, 2-3Anklets of Translocation, any other bardic gear worth having.
Make sure you use Inspirational Boost (Bard1, SpC) before starting a song, and Badge of Valor immediately after. Once you have a song up, you can leave it up as long as you want and cast all the spells you want via Melodic Casting.
This is nice, but I'd like to add one thing:
Dragonfire inspiration is overrated. Generally a morale bonus to hit that can be power attacked is just as powerful as a handful of dice of energy damage.
Basically only use dragonfire inspiration if:
A) You're party members absolutely hate two handed weapons and power attack.
B) You're party members tend to use TWF, polymorph, and similar mechanics that are not two handed weapons.
C) Your DM typically uses very few monsters with resistances/immunities to your energy damage of choice. This is the big one.
Essentially, unless the conditions are right dragonfire inspiration is not as good as plain old inspire courage and thus not worth a feat. Take it at your own risk. Also, silverbrow humans don't get bonus skill points, so that's another cost.
Human Bard5/Mindbender1/Bard3/Virtuoso1/SubChord1/Virtuoso9
Slightly better than the above (in my opinion)
Human Bard5/Mindbender1/Lyric Thuamaturge 3/Virtuoso1/SubChord1/Virtuoso9
Essentially, unless the conditions are right dragonfire inspiration is not as good as plain old inspire courage and thus not worth a feat. Take it at your own risk. Also, silverbrow humans don't get bonus skill points, so that's another cost.
Just to counterpoint the above, it's possible to work in 5-9 damage dice in the level ~10 range with Dragonfire Inspiration (potentially double with Words of Creation). In that level range, very few things are immune to Sonic (hell, very few things are naturally immune to sonic period), which is doable. Plus it effects ALL allies, which lets you get away with some pretty severe shennanigans if you abuse leadership or other cohort-ness on top of the party proper.
Of course, at high levels, either way, much of your party is likely going to be unable to benefit from the boost either way, as it's mind-affecting, and that's one of the first immunities I know that I try and go for.
So...since I'm taking leadership, it looks like I'm going to maximize inspire courage to the best of my ability, and take a summoning druid as a cohort.
That being said, would taking any prcs screw up my inspire courage bonus?
I also like all these prcs being named, but I noticed that none of them will grant me access to 9th level spells except the SC
The virtuoso build above gives you 9ths. You use Virtuoso to advance SC casting from 2nd-10th and give you boosts to Bardic Music. The only level in that build that doesn't boost bardic music is the level of Mindbender.
From my understanding with the progression of Bardic Music and the way the benefits of Bardic Music are gained with the prestige classes is that you only gain additional uses of bardic music per day, NOT additional levels that determine the power of your inspire courage.
I'd basically be able to sing Inspire Courage at +1 19 times day.
Also, in the case that my DM does not allow anything from the book Dragon Magic (He only allows things from books he's read, and I don't think he's gotten to that one yet), where should I go without the mindbender?
Virtuoso stacks for both so you count as a 15th level bard for Inspire Courage. That's +3 base (at 19). You're generally only one + behind a straight bard and only for about 7 levels total.
But, ultimately, your base Inspire courage bonus is not where your getting your pluses from. With items, Spells, and Feats, you'll be getting an additional +3-+8, and you'll be doubling that with Words of Creation (assuming your DM doesn't nerf the hell out of you).
Here's a couple guides...
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-579074
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095
Mindbender is in Complete Arcane.
Virtuoso stacks for both so you count as a 15th level bard for Inspire Courage. That's +3 base (at 19). You're generally only one + behind a straight bard and only for about 7 levels total.
But, ultimately, your base Inspire courage bonus is not where your getting your pluses from. With items, Spells, and Feats, you'll be getting an additional +3-+8, and you'll be doubling that with Words of Creation (assuming your DM doesn't nerf the hell out of you).
Here's a couple guides...
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-579074
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095
Ah, looks something useful
Thanks. I'm going to have to try to get him to read the dragon magic book so I can get the DI feat.Two things. You can't normally take both words of creation and mindbender. Mindbender has any non-good as an alignment requirement, and Words of Power is an exalted (good only) feat. You can possibly get around it by switching from Neutral to Neutral Good or something between taking the level and the feat, but it's fair warning that the two conflict.
Slightly better than the above (in my opinion)
Human Bard5/Mindbender1/Lyric Thuamaturge 3/Virtuoso1/SubChord1/Virtuoso9
Just to counterpoint the above, it's possible to work in 5-9 damage dice in the level ~10 range with Dragonfire Inspiration (potentially double with Words of Creation). In that level range, very few things are immune to Sonic (hell, very few things are naturally immune to sonic period), which is doable. Plus it effects ALL allies, which lets you get away with some pretty severe shennanigans if you abuse leadership or other cohort-ness on top of the party proper.
Of course, at high levels, either way, much of your party is likely going to be unable to benefit from the boost either way, as it's mind-affecting, and that's one of the first immunities I know that I try and go for.
Lyric Thaumaturge is a god damn trap. You trade away bardic music progression (uses per day aren't progression; IC bonus and getting new songs is) for a bonus spell slot and spell known.
@OP: pithica is trying to make you less productive. Don't listen to him.
The suggested build already includes Melodic Casting, so the only thing Lyric Thaumaturge costs you when compared to Bard is putting you an additional 3 levels behind a straight bard for when you get the plusses/songs.
In exchange you get one bonus 1st and 2nd level spell slot. One 1st and 2nd level spell known. And Captivating Melody (which is iffy) as a bonus feat.
Since the majority of your oomph with Dragonfire Inspiration will be coming from spells/items/feats that boost IC anyway, it's not like the three levels are that big of a deal in the long run.
It's the OP's choice as to which he prefers, but the vitriol is completely unnecessary.
Any build that includes either Sublime Chord or Mindbender (much less both) is never going to get you +4 (base) in Inspire Courage. Any build that includes 10 levels of Virtuoso and 5 levels of Bard is going to get you a +3 final IC no matter what else you spend levels on.
The suggested build already includes Melodic Casting, so the only thing Lyric Thaumaturge costs you when compared to Bard is putting you an additional 3 levels behind a straight bard for when you get the plusses/songs.
In exchange you get one bonus 1st and 2nd level spell slot. One 1st and 2nd level spell known. And Captivating Melody (which is iffy) as a bonus feat.
Since the majority of your oomph with Dragonfire Inspiration will be coming from spells/items/feats that boost IC anyway, it's not like the three levels are that big of a deal in the long run.
It's the OP's choice as to which he prefers, but the vitriol is completely unnecessary.
Level 20 is no more important than level 16. QED.
Really?
He's starting at level 10. At 10, the difference between the two builds 'music' is negligible, either way he should be pumping out +5-+10 from IC (easily) after spells/feats/items. Is your argument really that the +1 difference (+2 after WoC) and 'suggestion' are worth 2 bonus spells, 2 bonus spell slots, and a bonus feat? (especially considering that one of the bonus spells can give him a +1 (+2 after WoC) to his IC anyway)?
Really?
Inspire Greatness+Practiced Spellcaster. QED.
As for the whole Mindbender/Words of Creation thing, well, there is no such thing as an Ex-Mindbender. Maybe the fact that you now hear all of the evil in others minds drives you to commit yourself to righting the wrongs of the universe. Etc etc etc.
The other cool thing about Mindbender, is that nothing says you can't Inspire Courage with a song you sing inside of someone else's head. They can still "hear" you. This gets around the whole no-stealthy part of having IC running 24/7. Combine that with Melodic Casting and you never have to stop a bard song, EVER, well, after you start the first one of the day.
I've picked up the Dragon Magic book to check out Dragonfire Inspiration, and although I like it, I'm not keen on giving up any of the + to hit for my allies. The feat description also states that only the standard bonus of the inspire courage spell is subtracted and added in d6s.
Comparing the Lyric Th. vs extra bard levels, it appears that the Lyric Th. is the better choice of the two. Five bard levels + 10 virtuoso levels is 15 IC + 5 from the vest of legends.
The DM got pretty pissy when I showed him the setup though, saying it was just 'too op'. Which is retarded. It's good for a bard, but I think a 20 mage is still better. Pfffffffft
Oh, since you are gonna be playing a caster bard, let me enlighten you to a little trick I like to use. Caster roles are to disable and debuff right? Well, you got some good will save based stuff with Glitterdust and whatnot, but the only ref debuff you really get is Grease. Now, don't get me wrong, Grease is one of the most OP 1st level spells, but wouldn't it be nice to have a reflex disable that SCALES with your level? This one is good, and only requires a little above what you would normally expend.
The DMGII has a weapon enhancement named Sudden Stunning. It costs +2000g to add to a magic weapon. Thats super cheap. 4315 gets you a +1 Sudden Stunning Longsword, the only weapon you'll probably need. Sudden Stunning lets you use your swift action to force a creature you already hit with the weapon to make a REFLEX save, with a DC = 10 + cha + 1/2 character level or be STUNNED for 1d4+1 rounds. And you can use this ability +cha times per day. Any self respecting bard is gonna have at least a 16 starting cha, put all level up points in it, and purchase a +cha item asap. The result? A reflex save or die (essentially) who's DC is always about equal with your highest level of spells. This is awesome.
But Wyvernhand, you say, thats a melee weapon! I don't want to get into melee! I might get killed, or worse!
Have no fear, and open your Spell Compendium to page 238. There lies Whirling Blade, one of the coolest Bard/Wiz/Sorc2 spells in the game. Lets you throw your slashing (Longsword!) weapon out to 60' in a line, hitting everything you want in the path. Its friendly fire friendly, because it only attacks what you want, so feel free to use it in a crouded bar to impress your friends. Now you can fling your Sudden Stunning weapon out to 60', keeping yourself delightfully out of reach, hopefully with 1-2 allies between you and danger. Sure, you can only Sudden Stun one of them per turn (uses your swift action), but you can still lay a bit of smackdown on anything in your way. Remember, you get to add your IC bonus as well. At mid levels, get the wizard to GMW your blade, and maybe upgrade it with something cool like Wounding(+2,DMG) or Collision (+2,MIC) This stays a viable tactic all your career, actually improving in later levels when reflex saves scale poorly due to natural size increases. Your DC scales on its own as you level up, and generally stays on par with your highest level spell DCs.
You could have this available to you at level 4! With a 16 starting cha, if you spend almost all of your cash on this weapon, your DC would be 15, or 16 if you started with an 18 cha. By level 6, if you get a +2 cha cloak, your DC is 17, or 18 if you started with an 18. Thats pretty good if you compare it with the DCs of the wizard next to you with Bands of Steel (12+4 or 5 = 16/17).
2-5 rounds of stunned is more than enough time for your party to take him out. Stunned creatures are flat-footed AND drop every thing they carry. Its pretty much game over for that guy at that point. What fun!
Also, you cannot be a good Mindbender. I'm pretty sure it's explicitly stated that you lose all benefits of a PrC other than saves, BAB and HD if you cease to meet the prereqs for it.
That being said, would taking any prcs screw up my inspire courage bonus?
I also like all these prcs being named, but I noticed that none of them will grant me access to 9th level spells except the SC
Actually, the one I suggested do give 9th level spells. If your DM is being difficult about "too op" the easiest one is
Bard 8-> Eldrich Knight 1 -> Sand Shaper 1 -> Sublime Chord 1. Then take the nine remaining Eldrich Knight levels adding the EK spellcasting to Sublime Chord. Note that this is a bit iffy under the text of Eldrich Knight. However, you can substitute Knight Phantom.
It ends up a straight Gish with BaB +16 and 9th level spells. The Sand Shaper does give you a lot of extra spells known.
Alternatly you can use Abjurant Champion, which is even stronger but more likly to provoke the DM as "too op".
Mindbender does not actually say anything about what happens if you switch alignments. You can definitely not continue to progress in it, but you should still have access to any abilities gained in it(Which is just telepathy).
Mindbender doesn't, aye. However, the rule is that any PrC you cease to meet the prereqs of, you lose the abilities. Mindbender is part of the set "PrCs", therefore, if you become good you lose the abilities.
Mindbender doesn't, aye. However, the rule is that any PrC you cease to meet the prereqs of, you lose the abilities. Mindbender is part of the set "PrCs", therefore, if you become good you lose the abilities.
I thought that was only explicitely spelled out in Complete Warrior, and one other book, which wasn't the DMG. I forget which it was though.
Inspire Greatness+Practiced Spellcaster. QED.
Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Bard +3 Doesn't have Inspire Greatness any more than Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 3 does.
Learn to read. QED.
I thought that was only explicitely spelled out in Complete Warrior, and one other book, which wasn't the DMG. I forget which it was though.
You are correct, going back over complete warrior:
If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.
Dragonfire Inspiration is WONDERFUL if your BSF has lots of attacks. I'm playing a bard with it, and what with Words of Creation and a Badge of Valor, I'm giving him around +25 damage (acid) to all 6 of his attacks.
Also, you cannot be a good Mindbender. I'm pretty sure it's explicitly stated that you lose all benefits of a PrC other than saves, BAB and HD if you cease to meet the prereqs for it.
Explain how you do this. From my interpretation of the rules, Words of Creation only doubles the BASE value of IC. Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, and other magical/mundane means of increasing the bonus to IC are NOT multiplies with this method.
Also, Dragonfire Inspiration only removes the STANDARD MORALE bonus of the IC and adds it in d6's. So technically a bard IC at level 8 with a Badge of Valor and Words of Creation would do 4d6 fire and +1/+1.
I thought that was only explicitely spelled out in Complete Warrior, and one other book, which wasn't the DMG. I forget which it was though.
It is. And however much the DM whines about it, I'm going to roll this class anyways, because as I've stated before, he is NOTORIOUS for sending CRs at us that are four levels higher than the party. (last session we fought two level 16 CRs at once and our party CR was 14....thankfully I have a psion to frontload all the power in). This being said, I like the idea of having 5 bard levels, 10 virtuoso levels, and one Sublime Chord level. So I need to replace the mindbender with something else. Maybe a level of marshal?
Too bad about Mindbender, its a really strong option, especially if you think your DM is gonna toss a few invisible or hiden enemies at you.
Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Bard +3 Doesn't have Inspire Greatness any more than Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 3 does.
Learn to read. QED.
Yes, but Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Bard +3/ Virtuoso 1 Does. Learn to think. QED.
Yes, but Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Bard +3/ Virtuoso 1 Does. Learn to think. QED.
No, it doesn't...(Emphasis added)
Bardic Music: Virtuoso levels stack with bard levels for the purpose of determining the virtuoso's daily uses of his bardic music abilities (if any) and the value of the bonus granted by inspire courage (if the virtuoso has that bardic music ability).
The only thing Virtuoso increases in Bardic Music are daily uses and Inspire Courage pluses.
No, it doesn't...(Emphasis added)
The only thing Virtuoso increases in Bardic Music are daily uses and Inspire Courage pluses.
Hmm. Just play a hellbred.
Explain how you do this. From my interpretation of the rules, Words of Creation only doubles the BASE value of IC. Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, and other magical/mundane means of increasing the bonus to IC are NOT multiplies with this method.
Also, Dragonfire Inspiration only removes the STANDARD MORALE bonus of the IC and adds it in d6's. So technically a bard IC at level 8 with a Badge of Valor and Words of Creation would do 4d6 fire and +1/+1.
Admittedly I'm higher than 8th level, so my base IC is +3/+3. WoC makes this +6/+6, and a Badge of Valour takes it to +7/+7. Don't have Inspirational Boost yet, need to pick that up sometime. DI then makes that +7d6, which is an average of 24.5.
Admittedly I'm higher than 8th level, so my base IC is +3/+3. WoC makes this +6/+6, and a Badge of Valour takes it to +7/+7. Don't have Inspirational Boost yet, need to pick that up sometime. DI then makes that +7d6, which is an average of 24.5.
Right, but check the wording of the feats, Heliomance. Dragonfire Inspiration only doubles the BASE IC, not the modifiers. So instead of +7d6 the bonus would be +1/+1 and an additional 6d6 acid.
Also, to anyone still reading this. I've been looking at the MINDSIGHT feat in the Lords of Madness book, and it looks like it can only be taken by a race that has Telepathy as a racial feature (not granted by a PrC), as the wording says Telepathy special ability.
Also, to anyone still reading this. I've been looking at the MINDSIGHT feat in the Lords of Madness book, and it looks like it can only be taken by a race that has Telepathy as a racial feature (not granted by a PrC), as the wording says Telepathy special ability.
Nope, the telepathy MB gets is the same as the telepathy that say...an illithid would get. Its a SU, just the same.