Help optimizing a Binder (3rd level) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help optimizing a Binder (3rd level)

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
xeno121
Sep 27, 2008 1:39:00 Human Binder lv3
Stats:
STR: 14
DEX: 16
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 10
CHA: 16

I'm trying to somehow come up with a mix between Melee/Tanking/Sneak Attacking/Charging.

Current plan is Binder 15/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5

I take Chupoclops as the KotSS vestige, so he's gonna be bound at all times.

Would TWF be the path to go? I find the shock trooper charge where you pile on damage upon damage but lose all your AC a death sentence in the campaign since the DM would counter that swiftly and the feat expenditure makes you a one trick pony unless you switch vestiges but then you don't have any feat support.

There's currently a paladin, a bard, and an unkown in the group with me and I was planning on some form of melee damage.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to combine most effectively the Sneak Attack the charge and still maintain AC and have a viable tactic against sneak attack immune foes on the fly.

Binder1-11/KotSS12-16/Binder 17-20

1. Imp Binding
1. Human Bonus Feat
3.
4. Binder Bonus Feat (Expel Vestige)
6.
9. Weapon Focus
11. Binder Bonus Feat (Ignore Special Requirements)
12
15
18

I'm thinking my main binds will be Chupoclops/Andromelius/Malphas/Marchosias

and that'll give me:

Sneak Attack 5d6
Sudden Strike 6d6
And Death Attack

I read the Binder Handbook and was considering using Able Learner for Hide/MS Ranks along with the +16 I get from Marchosias to push it higher and take Darkstalker(Feat) So I can get the jump on everything.

The Martial Study line for shadowblade looked good but is Dex to damage even that good compared to TWF?

and with TWF I'd only be able to go up to Improved Two-weapon Fighting and still increase my charisma most levels, would that make it worth it over equpping over a shield.

And I fear I am simply having a problem fundamentally grasping the sheer versatility of the Binder and feat choice isn't nearly as difficult or impactful because of the ability to switch roles daily as i think.

I'm trying to get feats for all the roles and failing miserably so what is the most optimized distribution of Sneak Attack/Charging/DC increaseing feats available.

The Current list of feats I've considered are:

Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook)
Two-weapon Fighting
Improved Two-weapon Fighting
Martial Study
Martial Stance
Shadow Blade
Power attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Improved Buckler Defense
Weapon Focus (not sure which weapon to take it in since the Morningstar won't be used once you take the first KoTSS level)
#2
innabinder
Sep 27, 2008 9:28:07 Have you seen the Binder Handbook?
#3
xeno121
Sep 27, 2008 11:17:21 I did, but with the vast amount of options available to the Binder I'm having a hard time deciding how far into each style I should try and specialize.

Such as:

I can take TWF and iTWF to increase Sneak Attack output. But I can also go deeper into that and take Martial Study/Martial Stance/Shadowblade, that's 5 feats out of the 7 I have available for non-binder feats( counting Imp. Binding at 1st level as a Binder feat)

The charge line of feats Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are incompatible with the above list, so I considered slicing it down to just TWF/iTWF from the above list with maybe Improved Initiative. But 2d6 Sneak After the Neraph charge is a very strong combination.

Neraph Charge and TWF would require me to spend an ability score level point unless I make WIS a 16, but I still need a 16starting DEX for +1 to the meet the 17 prereq for iTWF and Greater is probably a pipe dream without a tome.

The Binder Guide also lacked a way to shore up your AC after the Shocktrooper Heedless Charge run in the event the thing didn't die. With the limited feat choices I see that becoming a problem.

I know more sneak attack isn't all that matters, but the dex to damage would help against sneak attack immune foes and the Boost I could take for a Swift Greater Invisibility for the round just stacks on even more sneak attacks and synergizes well with Paimon's dance of death also(although Haure's incorporeal movement does a decent job with that in it's own right.

But what would be more consistent damage, Paimons dance of death with tons of sneak attack untouchable instead of 50% miss chance or just Charge everything for a full attack and hope it falls over before it gets near you?

I'm thinking stat-wise that the 16 CON is a good thing since I dropped to -8 last session and without it would be rerolling(bad crit-string )
#4
Omen_of_Peace
Sep 27, 2008 17:58:14 For TWF you need:
- lots of feats
- more money (to enchant 2 weapons)
- bonus damage

With a straight binder build I don't think it's optimal. If you start dipping Swordsage it could be viable. If you do want to go that way, get ITWF from the Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) - that will be one less feat needed.

Mind you, I haven't compared the builds in actual play, but I'd recommend the Leap Attacking one. You don't have to use Heedless Charge if you think you'll end up killed. You don't have to take Impr. Bullrush+Shock Trooper if you think the power level is not appropriate for your game (talk to your DM about it).

How to compensate the low AC:
- with a miss chance - get a cloak of minor displacement, use Tenebrous' darkness or Orthos' displacement. (Beware demons with True Seeing.)
- with AC from the KotSS 2nd level ability (Cha to AC for 1 round)
- with DR from one of the high level vestiges.

Remember to think about what vestiges you're going to bind before you get access to Chupoclops...
#5
xeno121
Sep 27, 2008 20:47:12 thanks, that's a lot of help and I'll talk to the DM about expected power levels before making the call on Shocktrooper.
#6
xeno121
Sep 28, 2008 13:59:49 Here's what I'm gonna try out:

Binder11 /Fighter2/Swordsage2/KotSS5

Binder1. Imp Binding
Human1. TWF
Binder3. Neraph charge
Fighter4
Swordsage6. Shadowblade
Fighter8. iTWF
9.Power Attack
12. Leap Attack
15. Imp. BullRush
18. Shocktrooper

Does this seem a more solid build? I took iTWF still because there's currently no way of being sure that I can get a hold of the gloves (we just got MW at 3rd level) so I don't know where equipment is gonna go or how high up.

Stats:
STR:14
DEX:16(+1 at 4)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 16

stat-wise I need a 17dex for iTWF, and a 15 WIS for Neraph Charge. Is Weapon Finesse worth a 1 point difference in STR and DEX?

I don't know when to take the 2nd Swordsage level for Wis to AC(take it before fighter?) or what bonus feats to take for the fighter levels.
#7
Omen_of_Peace
Sep 28, 2008 18:53:02 We misunderstood each other. The Leap Attack + Shocktrooper combo is really for people using two-handed weapons. You can't Power Attack with a light weapon or a rapier and those are the weapons you'll use if you go TWF.

So: if you go Paimon and Dex, forget about PA+LA+ST. If you go two-hander and Str, do take them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xeno121 Sep 27, 2008 1:39:00	Human Binder lv3 Stats: STR: 14 DEX: 16 Con: 16 Int: 14 Wis: 10 CHA: 16 I'm trying to somehow come up with a mix between Melee/Tanking/Sneak Attacking/Charging. Current plan is Binder 15/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 I take Chupoclops as the KotSS vestige, so he's gonna be bound at all times. Would TWF be the path to go? I find the shock trooper charge where you pile on damage upon damage but lose all your AC a death sentence in the campaign since the DM would counter that swiftly and the feat expenditure makes you a one trick pony unless you switch vestiges but then you don't have any feat support. There's currently a paladin, a bard, and an unkown in the group with me and I was planning on some form of melee damage. I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to combine most effectively the Sneak Attack the charge and still maintain AC and have a viable tactic against sneak attack immune foes on the fly. Binder1-11/KotSS12-16/Binder 17-20 1. Imp Binding 1. Human Bonus Feat 3. 4. Binder Bonus Feat (Expel Vestige) 6. 9. Weapon Focus 11. Binder Bonus Feat (Ignore Special Requirements) 12 15 18 I'm thinking my main binds will be Chupoclops/Andromelius/Malphas/Marchosias and that'll give me: Sneak Attack 5d6 Sudden Strike 6d6 And Death Attack I read the Binder Handbook and was considering using Able Learner for Hide/MS Ranks along with the +16 I get from Marchosias to push it higher and take Darkstalker(Feat) So I can get the jump on everything. The Martial Study line for shadowblade looked good but is Dex to damage even that good compared to TWF? and with TWF I'd only be able to go up to Improved Two-weapon Fighting and still increase my charisma most levels, would that make it worth it over equpping over a shield. And I fear I am simply having a problem fundamentally grasping the sheer versatility of the Binder and feat choice isn't nearly as difficult or impactful because of the ability to switch roles daily as i think. I'm trying to get feats for all the roles and failing miserably so what is the most optimized distribution of Sneak Attack/Charging/DC increaseing feats available. The Current list of feats I've considered are: Neraph Charge (Planar Handbook) Two-weapon Fighting Improved Two-weapon Fighting Martial Study Martial Stance Shadow Blade Power attack Improved Bull Rush Shock Trooper Improved Buckler Defense Weapon Focus (not sure which weapon to take it in since the Morningstar won't be used once you take the first KoTSS level)
#2 innabinder Sep 27, 2008 9:28:07	Have you seen the Binder Handbook?
#3 xeno121 Sep 27, 2008 11:17:21	I did, but with the vast amount of options available to the Binder I'm having a hard time deciding how far into each style I should try and specialize. Such as: I can take TWF and iTWF to increase Sneak Attack output. But I can also go deeper into that and take Martial Study/Martial Stance/Shadowblade, that's 5 feats out of the 7 I have available for non-binder feats( counting Imp. Binding at 1st level as a Binder feat) The charge line of feats Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are incompatible with the above list, so I considered slicing it down to just TWF/iTWF from the above list with maybe Improved Initiative. But 2d6 Sneak After the Neraph charge is a very strong combination. Neraph Charge and TWF would require me to spend an ability score level point unless I make WIS a 16, but I still need a 16starting DEX for +1 to the meet the 17 prereq for iTWF and Greater is probably a pipe dream without a tome. The Binder Guide also lacked a way to shore up your AC after the Shocktrooper Heedless Charge run in the event the thing didn't die. With the limited feat choices I see that becoming a problem. I know more sneak attack isn't all that matters, but the dex to damage would help against sneak attack immune foes and the Boost I could take for a Swift Greater Invisibility for the round just stacks on even more sneak attacks and synergizes well with Paimon's dance of death also(although Haure's incorporeal movement does a decent job with that in it's own right. But what would be more consistent damage, Paimons dance of death with tons of sneak attack untouchable instead of 50% miss chance or just Charge everything for a full attack and hope it falls over before it gets near you? I'm thinking stat-wise that the 16 CON is a good thing since I dropped to -8 last session and without it would be rerolling(bad crit-string )
#4 Omen_of_Peace Sep 27, 2008 17:58:14	For TWF you need: - lots of feats - more money (to enchant 2 weapons) - bonus damage With a straight binder build I don't think it's optimal. If you start dipping Swordsage it could be viable. If you do want to go that way, get ITWF from the Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC) - that will be one less feat needed. Mind you, I haven't compared the builds in actual play, but I'd recommend the Leap Attacking one. You don't have to use Heedless Charge if you think you'll end up killed. You don't have to take Impr. Bullrush+Shock Trooper if you think the power level is not appropriate for your game (talk to your DM about it). How to compensate the low AC: - with a miss chance - get a cloak of minor displacement, use Tenebrous' darkness or Orthos' displacement. (Beware demons with True Seeing.) - with AC from the KotSS 2nd level ability (Cha to AC for 1 round) - with DR from one of the high level vestiges. Remember to think about what vestiges you're going to bind before you get access to Chupoclops...
#5 xeno121 Sep 27, 2008 20:47:12	thanks, that's a lot of help and I'll talk to the DM about expected power levels before making the call on Shocktrooper.
#6 xeno121 Sep 28, 2008 13:59:49	Here's what I'm gonna try out: Binder11 /Fighter2/Swordsage2/KotSS5 Binder1. Imp Binding Human1. TWF Binder3. Neraph charge Fighter4 Swordsage6. Shadowblade Fighter8. iTWF 9.Power Attack 12. Leap Attack 15. Imp. BullRush 18. Shocktrooper Does this seem a more solid build? I took iTWF still because there's currently no way of being sure that I can get a hold of the gloves (we just got MW at 3rd level) so I don't know where equipment is gonna go or how high up. Stats: STR:14 DEX:16(+1 at 4) Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 16 stat-wise I need a 17dex for iTWF, and a 15 WIS for Neraph Charge. Is Weapon Finesse worth a 1 point difference in STR and DEX? I don't know when to take the 2nd Swordsage level for Wis to AC(take it before fighter?) or what bonus feats to take for the fighter levels.
#7 Omen_of_Peace Sep 28, 2008 18:53:02	We misunderstood each other. The Leap Attack + Shocktrooper combo is really for people using two-handed weapons. You can't Power Attack with a light weapon or a rapier and those are the weapons you'll use if you go TWF. So: if you go Paimon and Dex, forget about PA+LA+ST. If you go two-hander and Str, do take them.