As far as I know, all forgotten realms and eberron books are banned, mostly everything else must be presented to the guy running it for approval. He is counting racial LA on both sides of the gestalt, and racial hit die on one side only. So with all that being said, what could a clericzilla work well into?
Assuming leadership/minion mastering is out, that still leaves a world of options. Assuming starting gold of 49,000gp, 52,000 XP (3,000 XP shy of 11th level), LA Reduction is allowed, retraining is allowed, and 32-point buy, here is a possible build:
Water Orc Warbeast Brown Wearbear (afflicted) Cleric 9/Monk (Overwhelming Attack) 2/Warbeast brown bear 7 (ECL 9, 36,000 XP after LA reduction)
Medium Humanoid (Orc, Shapechanger, Dragonblood)
HD: 2d8+2+7d8+56 (102 hp) <--Lycanthropes have funky hp, so I might be wrong here
Modes of Movement: Land 30 ft.; Swim 30 ft.
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 6, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 18, Cha 6
Feats: Extra TurningB, Extend SpellB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Power AttackB, Iron WillB, Track (or Endurance or Run, at player's option)B, Improved Bull RushB, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, Extra Turning x4 (take two flaws of your choice)
AC: 14 (-2 Dex, +2 Natural, +4 Wisdom)
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +14
At this point, pre-items, you have 21 turn attempts per day (3 -2 Cha +20 Extra Turningx5) That enables you to persist 3 spells. If you drop an Extra Turning for Nonverbal Spell, you can cast spells in your alternate forms. Some good choices are obviously Righteous Might and Divine Power. Bull's Strength is possible if your DM accepts touch range spells (which most don't). At this point, you are nigh unstoppable. In fact, instead of that second level of monk, how about Hulking Hurler?
In hybrid form, you would have the following stats:
Huge Humanoid (Orc, Shapechanger, Dragonblood)
Str 56, Dex 8, Con 26, Int 6, Wis 18, Cha 6. As a hulking hurler, you are already capable of hurling items weighing up to your light load. At Hugh size with 56 strength, that amounts to items weighing up to 59,733.3 lbs. You only have a 10' range increment with it, but still. If you can find a way to add Brutal Throw into the build, all the better. Iron weighing 50,000 lbs would cost 5,000gp. Making the iron ball masterwork would cost 300gp. Making it +1 and adding the returning property makes it a total of 13,300gp. Its damage is 253d6+23. Since you can throw it once per round, it seems like a fairly effective way to get massive damage.
Edit: For a more likely method of an iron ball of that size being made:
50,000 lbs of iron takes up 102 cu. feet (assuming iron has a density of 7.874 g/cc). A 9th level wizard could cast Shrink Item 6 times on six separate balls of iron, each weighing about 8333 lbs. Each pile will now be 1/16 the size and 1/4000 the weight. The size is what matters. The duration for the shrink item spells is 9 days (which is important). Now, the wizard moves the six balls (each weighing just over 2 lbs) into the same general area (comprising only 6.375 cu feet of space). He then casts fabricate (he is capable of affecting up to 9 cu. feet of iron, and only needs to affect 6.375). He must succeed on a Craft (Weaponsmithing) DC 18 (since it is an exotic thrown weapon) and a Craft (Weaponsmithing) DC 20 check (to make it masterwork). Succeeding on both of those, he now has a masterwork iron ball weighing 12.5 lbs. He can enchant this ball with +1 and returning in 8 days (before the duration of his Shrink Item spells wears off). Now, he gives the command word such that all six portions of the ball expand simultaneously, and with any luck, the magic ball doesn't break apart. This adds 6x9x30+9x50=2,070gp. Also, it is not guaranteed to work.
There won't be a ninth level wizard around, so I guess I'd stick with the first method of the iron ball, if I went hulking hurler. Can you explain the whole Water werebear orc thing a bit more?
Water Orc
I forgot, but I made the creature Dragonborn, also (Races of the Dragon). This increases Con by 2, but reduces Dex by 2.
So, Dragonblood Water Orc has the following stat modifiers:
Str +4, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2
If you add in the +2 Wis from afflicted Lycanthrope, you have:
Str +4, Dex -2, Con +4, Int -2, Cha -2
Warbeast is a template from MM II. Apply it to Brown Bear. Look at the entry for Lycanthrope in the Monster Manual for more information on how to become a lycanthrope.
The method for creating the iron ball means that your iron ball would have come into existence before you became a gladiator. If your DM wants an explanation of how it is possible, the 9th level wizard made it possible. He was the one who originally made this +1 returning iron ball that weighs 50,000 lbs. For pricing purposes, your DM might ask you to add in the cost of the additional spells he had to cast to make its creation possible. Other than that, the build is pretty straightforward clericzilla.
I forgot, but I made the creature Dragonborn, also (Races of the Dragon). This increases Con by 2, but reduces Dex by 2.
Fixed that for you.
Warbeast is a template from MM II. Apply it to Brown Bear. Look at the entry for Lycanthrope in the Monster Manual for more information on how to become a lycanthrope.
If you're suggesting applying the Warbeast template to Brown Bear for the type of Lycanthrope you are, that does not work.
Templated forms for Lycanthropy was nerfed a long, long time ago.
Iron weighing 50,000 lbs would cost 5,000gp. Making the iron ball masterwork would cost 300gp. Making it +1 and adding the returning property makes it a total of 13,300gp. Its damage is 253d6+23. Since you can throw it once per round, it seems like a fairly effective way to get massive damage.
Lead is much more efficient and just as common as iron for this type of exercise, given that lead has a density of 11.3 g/cm3 and iron is only 7.87 g/cm3.
For extra fun, try to get your DM to houserule iridium into the campaign, one of the densest metals in existance, at 22.4 g/cm3. That's more than twice as dense as lead.
Or if you have exceptionally deep pockets, platinum could do much the same thing at 21.4 ;)
That same 50,000 lb ball would be a 36 cubic foot sphere as iridium.
If you're suggesting applying the Warbeast template to Brown Bear for the type of Lycanthrope you are, that does not work.
Templated forms for Lycanthropy was nerfed a long, long time ago.
I believe that is wrong. Alternate form says that it cannot be used to turn into a creature with a template. My example did not use a creature with a template for the alternate form. A hybrid of humanoid mixed with a creature with a template was used. The rules do not discriminate against that. Are you referring to another nerf for lycanthropes? I didn't see it in the SRD.
Lead is much more efficient and just as common as iron for this type of exercise, given that lead has a density of 11.3 g/cm3 and iron is only 7.87 g/cm3.
For extra fun, try to get your DM to houserule iridium into the campaign, one of the densest metals in existance, at 22.4 g/cm3. That's more than twice as dense as lead.
Or if you have exceptionally deep pockets, platinum could do much the same thing at 21.4 ;)
That same 50,000 lb ball would be a 36 cubic foot sphere as iridium.
While that may be true, the cost of lead is not available, and would need to be house ruled. Iron is the cheapest metal for which a cost is given at 1sp/pound. I was going with established rules, as I don't know how much a pound of lead would cost.
For platinum, that 50,000 lb ball would cost 25,000,000gp just for the platinum. Given the price range (a 10th level character), iron is the most efficient.
A hybrid of humanoid mixed with a creature with a template was used. The rules do not discriminate against that.
So very wrong.
You cannot assume a form with a template. The hybrid form "combines features of the base creature and the base animal." The base animal you are trying to use has a template as one of it's features. Therefor the hybrid form has a template as one of it's features. Therefor the hybrid form is unable to be assumed by alternate form.
So very wrong.
You cannot assume a form with a template. The hybrid form "combines features of the base creature and the base animal." The base animal you are trying to use has a template as one of it's features. Therefor the hybrid form has a template as one of it's features. Therefor the hybrid form is unable to be assumed by alternate form.
So very much your interpretation and not spelled out in the rules. The hybrid form described is not a creature with a template. It is an entirely new form that happens to be a combination of the base creature and a creature with a template. Once the combination is made, it is no longer a creature with a template and by those rules, should be fully assumable by alternate form.
So very much my interpretation and not spelled out in the rules: The hybrid form described is not a creature with a template. It is an entirely new form that happens to be a combination of the base creature and a creature with a template. Once the combination is made, it is no longer a creature with a template and by those rules, should be fully assumable by alternate form.
I fixed that for you.
The rules are actually 100% silent on how to create the hybrid creature with the exception of these exact entries:
"A hybrid has hands and can use weapons, but it can also attack with its teeth and claws. A hybrid can spread lycanthropy with its bite, and it has the same damage reduction that its animal form possesses."
"Lycanthropes can also adopt a hybrid shape that combines features of the base creature and the base animal. A lycanthrope’s hybrid form is the same size as the base animal or the base creature, whichever is larger."
Hybrids use the base creature’s speed."
"In hybrid form, the lycanthrope’s natural armor bonus is equal to the natural armor bonus of the base animal or the base creature, whichever is better."
"A lycanthrope in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons."
"These weapons deal damage based on the hybrid form’s size. A hybrid may attack with a weapon and a bite, or may attack with its natural weapons. The bite attack of a hybrid is a secondary attack."
"A lycanthrope’s hybrid form does not gain any special attacks of the base animal. A lycanthrope spellcaster cannot cast spells with verbal, somatic, or material components while in animal form, or spells with verbal components while in hybrid form."
"An afflicted lycanthrope in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 5/silver. A natural lycanthrope in animal or hybrid form has damage reduction 10/silver."
"All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores -10 or -11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount."
No mention of your hypothetically new, templateless form at all. It's clearly spelled out everything that's carried over from which forms, including 'features of the animal form.' The same animal form that cannot have a template.
Your idea would make it possible for there to exist a Lycanthrope which could never take animal form because his animal form was an invalid target for the very ability which granted him that animal form. And while it's never explicitly stated that the template must be used on a creature to which the template's abilities can apply, that kind of justifying only has a place in TO, which is, to my understanding, not the goal of this thread, nor this particular forum.
The Lycanthropy nerf was terrible (Feral template on the humanoid side was even taken away
), but it happened a long time ago. I am appalled that this kind of misinformation is still being passed off as valid.You fixed my post incorrectly. You keep posting your interpretation.
Wow, that went entirely over your head. My point was that your last post was entirely your own interpretation, so it was amusing to me for you to say the same thing about mine.
There are no rules listed anywhere that say anything about this. It is your belief that an invalid animal form negates the lycanthrope template, but that is not spelled out.
See my note in the previous post. This is CO, not TO, so 'it doesn't say I can't take actions while dead' style logic is not appropriate.
Additionally, once the lycanthrope is created based on a templated animal (which there should be no problem doing), it creates specific rules which override the alternate form general rules that a creature cannot use alternate form to assume the form of a creature with a template.
Blatantly wrong. While the general overrides the specific, the only mention of taking the form specifies doing so with Alternate Form, so the general and the specific are one and the same.
lycanthropy template cannot overrule the alternate form rules (which logic would say it could).
Yes, logically it could, but there is nothing in the entry to indicate that it does. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it is happening. That is what your position lacks, while mine relies on logical progression and sense to fill in an area completely untouched by the rules.
The templated animal increases the creature's hit dice, so the creature is certainly paying for the adjustment with an additional experience cost.
Except that firstly, only an idiot would apply templates that increase HD (and there are so few of them to begin with), and secondly, whether or not it's paid for is neither here nor there.
Before the nerf this worked because there was no limit in the template nor in alternate form. After the nerf, there is a limit in alternate form that is not explicitly overridden in the template, but that creates a logically inconsistency with the template.
Logically, we can either assume that the nerf also applies to the template that relies on what was nerfed, or we can assume that the forgot to include errata indicating that Lycanthropy overrides the alternate form nerfs, as these are the only ways to remove the logical inconsistency (TO doesn't have to be logical, such as the ability to take actions while dead, or the ability to heal from an infinite amount of damage by drowning yourself).
And the far more sensible (though not happier) assumption is that the nerf also applies to the template that relies on what was nerfed.
Before the nerf this worked because there was no limit in the template nor in alternate form. After the nerf, there is a limit in alternate form that is not explicitly overridden in the template, but that creates a logically inconsistency with the template.
For everyone's benefit, could you tell us where this nerf was written? A FAQ? Rules of the Game?
For everyone's benefit, could you tell us where this nerf was written? A FAQ? Rules of the Game?
3.5 Monster Manual Errata. It starts on the first page. Alternate Form can no longer be used to take templated shapes, all Ex abilities not from class levels are lost (so you lose many benefits of base creature templates), and Con changes no longer change your HP.
All big blows to the effectiveness of the already overpriced Lycanthrope.
3.5 Monster Manual Errata. It starts on the first page. Alternate Form can no longer be used to take templated shapes, all Ex abilities not from class levels are lost (so you lose many benefits of base creature templates), and Con changes no longer change your HP.
All big blows to the effectiveness of the already overpriced Lycanthrope.
You are quoting changes to Alternate Form, not to Lycanthrope. Lycanthrope says that it requires an animal. It says nothing about denying an animal with a template. It says nothing about denying creatures that cannot traditionally be used with Alternate Form. Additionally, it says that the lycanthrope gains an alternate form to the animal that is its base creature. Therefore, the information you are referencing bears no relevance to the Lycanthrope entry at all. In fact, lycanthrope overrules the general rule by providing a specific rule. It is specific only to the lycanthrope. Any animal chosen as the base animal for the lycanthrope is available as an alternate form, whether it has a template or not. This overrules the general rule that alternate forms cannot possess templates. Unless there is a Rules of the Game article, an FAQ, or otherwise, it is a DM call with your interpretation not overruling the fact that specific rules override general ones, and the Lycanthrope's Alternate Form is clearly more specific than the general Alternate Form.
You are quoting changes to Alternate Form, not to Lycanthrope. Lycanthrope says that it requires an animal. It says nothing about denying an animal with a template.
But it does specifically say you use alternate form to take the form of an animal, without saying that it breaks the rules of alternate form.
Any animal chosen as the base animal for the lycanthrope is available as an alternate form, whether it has a template or not.
False. Lycanthropy never states this.
But it does specifically say you use alternate form to take the form of an animal, without saying that it breaks the rules of alternate form.
It doesn't say that it must follow the rules of its subordinate element. That puts it firmly in the realm of a DM decision.
False. Lycanthropy never states this.
False. That is your opinion. This is firmly in the realm of a DM decision. If the rules don't state it, it is up to the DM. That is in the rules. In many places.
It doesn't say that it must follow the rules of its subordinate element.
If you use alternate form, you have to follow the alternate form rules, unless specifically called out otherwise in the applicable rules. Lycanthropy makes you use alternate form and is devoid of any such explicit exception.
There is no middle ground, to take animal or hybrid form as a lycanthrope, you have to follow the alternate form rules.
Now, your current position (the one that agrees with my earlier point, by the way) that the rules are silent on the exact nature of the hybrid form in interacting with templates on the animal form is correct. However, pure DM fiat is just as likely to rule that you don't get template abilities to hybrid form anyway, regardless of if you could use a templated animal form, so as a basis the best assumption is that resting on the soundest logic.
And I've already explained to you how the soundest logic is that which avoids inconsistency, and therefor holds the template to the restrictions of the ability it grants.
I will reiterate that logic for you:
The key ability that allows the taking of animal form and hybrid form by the template in question was nerfed. The main role of that template is the taking of those forms. It is inconsistent for the template to be applicable to a creature who cannot be used with the main ability the template grants. To avoid this inconsistency, we must assume that Lycanthropy follows the rules of it's primary element (alternate form) and cannot be applied to templated creatures, therefor making the application of templates to hybrid form (which is a second factor the rules are silent on) a moot point.
Your entire argument is moot. Your argument is that I am wrong, and that I am spreading misinformation. I am not.
But you are. You are spreading a 'rule' that does not exist and cannot be logically extrapolated from other present rules. It is illogical (though possible) for a template to grant an ability that cannot be used by anyone with that same template.
Alternate Form cannot set retroactive restrictions.
When it is retroactively changed, and other abilities, features, or templates were specifically designed to work off it's original form, yes, it can. That's the whole point of what errata does. It retroactively changes certain rules and anything based on them.
The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes on the characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal).
This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature).
The description says any animal. An animal with a template is still an animal, allowing the template to be applied. Now, further within the template, the text reads:
Alternate Form (Su)
A lycanthrope can assume the form of a specific animal (as indicated in its entry).
Note that the specific animal is not necessarily the base animal. The DM is free to rule that the specific animal form may be different from the base animal if the base animal is not available because of templates. However, the hybrid form may still be available through templates. Again, this is entirely up to the DM to decide. Your interpretation that Alternate Form denies animals with templates from being used as the base animal is simply wrong. The Lycanthrope entry does not say that. You are wrong.
I have never once claimed that the Lycanthrope template says anything of the sort. It is so vague, in fact, that as you point out, the template's base animal really has no RaW connection with the animal you can take with alternate form. A Werehousecat could become a specific Dire Elephant. That's RaW, and that's TO. And it is silly and not the place of this board.
It also doesn't logically follow the assumptions supported by the template.
One of the other assumptions supported by the template is that it's basis is the original version of the alternate form ability. That ability has since been retroactively changed, so it is logical to assume that the template based on it changes as well.
Both are possible under the RaW, depending on the assumptions you bring into it, but only one really makes sense in a larger context.
In all seriousness: EjoThims is correct: unless more specific rules explicitly remove the limitations of Alternate From, those still apply.
Your ability to miss the point is astounding.
RAI, any animal, including one with a template, should be available for the base animal. Why would it not be available? Because one of its abilities has been rewritten to not support it? That is a poor reason. That is the point. I understand what you are saying, and still, it is wrong. The RAW does not explicitly deny it, so your claim that I am passing off erroneous information is wrong. I am discussing a point of view that you happen to disagree with. You claim it belongs in a different forum. That is wrong. It belongs here, as it is a valid interpretation by RAW. Live with it. Deal with it. It is a valid interpretation until the template is changed to deny the base animal or some FAQ/errata/other is created that says that if a template relies upon alternate form, the alternate form described in the template limits the template. If you can produce such text, then you are right. Otherwise, it is your opinion, and not relevant in this forum. This forum is about character optimization. Lycanthropes with a base animal containing a template have the potential to be more optimized than ones without (although not necessarily). If you have an issue with the technical aspect of it, then make your case to WotC to produce some form of errata. Otherwise, RAW, there is no reason not to allow it. Furthermore, RAI, there is no reason not to allow it.
Edit: Evidence that RAI supports the use of templated animals for lycanthropes is the Dire animals that are used in half the examples. The SRD did not have any templates that once applied would maintain an animal's status as animal. Dire is the closest there is in the SRD to a template. In fact, most DMs treat dire as a template, and some have even come up with what the Dire template grants. Now, the only argument that I can see making any sense is that the warbeast template is granted as a result of training, which doesn't make sense for a lycanthrope. If this were your argument, I would consider it, however, the nature of the template is the fluff, not the crunch of it. We are frequently told to throw out the fluff and follow the crunch. The crunch are the game rules that are affected by its application, not the feel of the template.
RAI, any animal, including one with a template, should be available for the base animal. Why would it not be available? Because one of its abilities has been rewritten to not support it? That is a poor reason.
No, it's not a poor reason. That is the whole point of errata, to rewrite the rules as needed. I agree with the others that when you consider the errata, it is clearly RAI to not allow templated base creatures for lycanthropes.
I can see how you could possibly argue that the RAW does not prohibit it, but trying to interpret it in that way while also including the Alternate Form errata leads to contradictions in the rules (using a templated base animal for the hybrid stats, but not being able to turn into it when using Alternate Form). Assuming that the Alternate Form errata prohibits using a templated base animal does not lead to any contradictions, and is therefore the most logical interpretation.
And holy freakin' threadjack batman!
Exactly. Oh please. Lycanthropes are a special case.
It's already been explained to you several times the only way that Lycanthropy can coexist with the current rules and not create contractions.
As the actual Lycanthropy entry is silent on which contradictions are or are not present, we have to logically assume (for practical purposes, TO is different, as I said) that the template works in the one way that prevents all contradictions while still allowing the template to work.
And Tytalus, I could have sworn Risner was already in the thread, though I do appreciate the jab. ;)
Wow I hate threadjacking.
A) Im confused by the above debate, I don't really care. B) I think I understand the no-templated base lycanthrope animal side. C) Perhaps the other side might have a point, RAW is messy. D) I wouldn't play with a DM insane enough to allow template stackage for lycanthropes ... It just seems like the tauric base animal argument to me. E) Because if allowed everyone would always pick tauric or lycanthrope and get a free dozen templates which is kinda funny but also kinda not...
Anyways... on the ghestalt (which is usually too powerful a variant for my tastes) I must say I love the double penalty for LA and doing 10 // 10 rather than ECL20 ghestalt.
For DMM cheese follow the usual on (cloistered) cleric 1 and druid to atleast level 5. From there where do you want the casting? No planar shephard so what about MoMF? If you can drop one of the castings perhaps find another way into WS (there are tons) and use cleric casting PrCs.