Help Optimizing a Paladin - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help Optimizing a Paladin

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cerebrus13
Jun 11, 2009 2:17:05 I'm going to be participating in a friend's level 20 campaign shortly, so I decided to go with a Nymph Paladin 11/Monk 2. The dip into Monk is for the nominally better saves, WIS to AC, and Evasion. Rolled for stats, got some pretty nice stuff, so here's my stat block after adjustments for Nymph.

STR 18 +4
DEX 23 +6
CON 16 +3
INT 20 +5
WIS 23 +6
CHA 26 +8

Assuming my addition is correct, my Armor Class stands at 30 before items, and my saves are: Fort 29, Ref 28, and Will 28. The bonuses from Unearthly Grace and Divine Grace are unnamed, so they should stack.

As for items, I followed a simple route. Cloak of Resistance +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +6, Bracers of Armor +8, and Cloak of Displacement Major line up the defensive slots, bringing my Armor Class up to 44, my saves up to 34 33 33, and 50% miss chances 15 rounds/day.

Now, onto the questions.
*I dipped into Monk for Evasion and WIS to AC, mostly. Are there any better choices to get those?

*Are there any Paladin variants that lose the mount for something? I don't see myself as using a mount too often.
**Assuming there aren't any variants that do so, what are some potentially good alternate mounts?

*There's still a lot of money to blow after the listed items before; something in the range of 500,000 gold, I dunno, I didn't count. A Ring of Freedom of Movement seems like a good choice, but what else would be worthwhile, assuming that I'm trying to become a very, very resilient "tank"?

*Is there any other race or template that provides Unearthly Grace? The +7 from Nymph is rather steep, though the stat adjustments and abilities that go alongside aren't bad.

*I've yet to work on my offensive capabilities. The default is wading into combat, full attacking with a holy avenger, but with my STR as-is and the loss of BAB for LA, I'm suffering in the to-hit department. Is there a feat or something that lets me add CHA to my attack rolls?

*I've got a rather lenient DM, and he's ruled that Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, and their ilk are legal spells for Permanency. He's also ruled that if a spell exists in both 3.0 and 3.5, you can use whichever version is more favorable. The obviously choice is 3.0 Haste, but are there any other potentially exploitable spells that I might get by?

Your help is much appreciated.
#2
sofawall
Jun 11, 2009 2:31:25 Paladins can dump the mount for a charging smite attack. You can cha to damage from Divine Might, but you need turning attempts. Luckily, you have them :D

As for hitting, lemme see... Most seem to be limited times per day, like smite... I see Snowflake Wardance, but you need a level of Bard... Avenging Strike, from ToB, but that's times per day again. I dunno.

EDIT: I forgot, the part where you want to be a super hard to hit/kill, you'd better also be very threatening. Enemies that have either animalistic intelligence or humanistic are going to avoid something they can't hit, but also does nothing to them. They'll ignore it and go for the squishy ones. It's what a DM should do if playing enemies right, most of them time.

That's one of the main problems with the Monk, by the way. Just throwing that out there.
#3
cru
Jun 11, 2009 3:46:54 First of all, a nymph has 6 fey HD and 7 LA, making her a ECL 13, leaving you only 7 class levels to use. I don't think a nymph is much use without house rules (e.g., ignoring HD, but even then it's not so good). If your DM allowed you to ignore HD, I'd rather focus on the druidic casting that nymph has. Try to get your DM to allow nymph casting stack with druid casting. There are also interesting druidic variants to use, such as:

variant druid
The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.
Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).
Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

At the very least, swap monk 2 for druid 2.

That said, I recommend swapping nymph for a pixie and use one of the excellent builds offered by the Pixie Handbook.
#4
fallen-angle
Jun 11, 2009 17:03:04 I can agree that the nymph is awfully costly. If you are willing to go another route you might consider going: Monk 2, Hexblade 3, Paladin X (or throw some other PrCs in there.

This way you'd still get Charisma to saves. Once from Paladin, then again against spells (which is the only place it will likely matter) via Hexblade. You also pick up both Evasion AND Mettle, allowing you to tool on a whole variety of casters.

If you are dead set on the Nymph route, I still recommend getting Mettle (either from Hexblade or Pious Templar). Dipping into another PrC isn't a bad idea as well. You could go Paladin 5, Monk 2, Pious Templar 1, Ordained Champion 5. This will give you 10 levels of paladin progression for smiting, evasion, mettle, disturbingly good saves, and spontaneous casting of spells from the War Domain through your sword and normally.
#5
corania
Jun 11, 2009 18:22:39
*Are there any Paladin variants that lose the mount for something? I don't see myself as using a mount too often.
**Assuming there aren't any variants that do so, what are some potentially good alternate mounts?

Charging Smite (Su)(PHB II): If along a charge attack you also smite evil, you deal an extra 2 damage per paladin level (that's 3 points per paladin bonus with the normal damage boost from smite evil). The important part is that if you miss on your charge attack, your smite ability is not considered used. Replaces Special Mount.

Divine Spirit (Dungeonscape): You can call a spirit that helps you and your companions. It cannot be attacked except by dispel magic, banishment and dismissal as a summoned creature using your paladin level as caster level. It stays around for rounds equal to your paladin level. Replaces Special Mount.
Spirit of Healing: This spirit can heal an amount of hit points equal to twice the amount you heal with your lay on hands ability. Moreover, it doesn't require an action on your part, as for someone to heal, he must end or begin his round on the spirit's square and use a standard action to activate it.
Spirit of Combat: +1 sacred bonus on attacks and damage per four paladin levels to all allies that are adjacent or occupy the same square as this spirit. Also weapons are threated good-aligned for overcoming damage reduction.
Spirit of Heroism: Great tanking spirit. You gain DR 10/-, the benefit of the diehard feat and you can use your lay on hands as a free action 1/round.
Spirit of the Fallen: Fast healing 10 to all adjacent allies and 1/round revive a character between 0 and -9 hit points who is inside a 30ft range. Damage healed equal twice your paladin level.

Underdark Knight (CC): If you are going to be in an underground campaign, this is worth it. You give up your mount and gain some abilities that depend on your level.

Stand Fast (City - web): As an immediate action, you can add your charisma modifier to a single saving throw to all allies between 20ft or to any roll to resist a trip, grapple, bull rush, disarm or sunder attack. Replaces Special Mount

Of those, I would recommend taking Charging Smite.

*There's still a lot of money to blow after the listed items before; something in the range of 500,000 gold, I dunno, I didn't count. A Ring of Freedom of Movement seems like a good choice, but what else would be worthwhile, assuming that I'm trying to become a very, very resilient "tank"?

I generally recommend writing up what you have in each of the magic item slots and make sure that you are filling each of them. Even some of the VERY cheap items add some useful bonuses even for a lvl 20 character, so it is a waste to let these slots sit open.

The Magic Item Compendium has charts in the back that sort things out by slot and then price. These are great for this type of thing.

Off the top of my head though, look for some things to boost your turn attempts if you are going to be using Divine feats. Obviously spending about 25% of your gp on each a weapon and shield is a good route to go (maybe an animated shield so you can keep using a two handed weapon for Power Attack/Smite fun).

Fortification on your shield is a good call with what you are going for.

Your a Paladin, so the Holy Avenger is good if you can get one.

The Sudden Stunning ability provides an ability which has a DC based on your Cha and is usable a number of times / day based on your Cha. Best of all, it is a fixed 2000 gp, so this has good synergy with you.

Belt of Magnificence from Miniatures is fantastic and will skyrocket your already high stats.

Bead of Karma to use while buffing up.

Belt of Battle... reliquary holy symbol... etc.

*Is there any other race or template that provides Unearthly Grace? The +7 from Nymph is rather steep, though the stat adjustments and abilities that go alongside aren't bad.

As another poster noted, I think you are missing on how the nymph works since you are required to take the racial HD (6 of them in this case) as well as then be adjusted by the ECL. This really cuts back on your Paladining. Might be best to look at other races.

I don't know if any others add unearthly grace.

I would recommend something like Illumian, Hellbred or even just human.

*I've yet to work on my offensive capabilities. The default is wading into combat, full attacking with a holy avenger, but with my STR as-is and the loss of BAB for LA, I'm suffering in the to-hit department. Is there a feat or something that lets me add CHA to my attack rolls?

Also mentioned earlier, snowflake wardance will do this but requires a level of Bard for it to work (I believe it takes uses of bardic music). However, Bard can synergize nicely with Paladin, so maybe a dip is in order (get devoted performer and all your pally levels will be giving you more uses of bardic music as well, so you can use this a lot; Initiate of Millil from Champions of Valor is another great one to add when going bard / pally).

You might want to take a look at some of the better feats for Paladins as well.

Goad would work very well since it is Cha based and your character is really needing something to help make him/her stickier.

Battle Blessing makes most Pally spells quickened... very nice

Sword of the Arcane Order is fantastic

Animal Devotion and Plant Devotion are very solid feats and would work very nicely with your race flavor wise.

Awsome Smite is a great Tactical feat, especially at higher levels

Divine Might, Divine Shield, and Sacred Vitality are all solid divine feat choices

Nymph's Kiss is nice if you can fit it in there... and well... you are a nymph after all.

Finally, since you are going armorless here, you might want to take the Skilled City Dweller options from the Cityscape web enhancement. This will give you Tumble as a class skill, which works VERY nicely to help your mobility since you have speed and no armor check penalties.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cerebrus13 Jun 11, 2009 2:17:05	I'm going to be participating in a friend's level 20 campaign shortly, so I decided to go with a Nymph Paladin 11/Monk 2. The dip into Monk is for the nominally better saves, WIS to AC, and Evasion. Rolled for stats, got some pretty nice stuff, so here's my stat block after adjustments for Nymph. STR 18 +4 DEX 23 +6 CON 16 +3 INT 20 +5 WIS 23 +6 CHA 26 +8 Assuming my addition is correct, my Armor Class stands at 30 before items, and my saves are: Fort 29, Ref 28, and Will 28. The bonuses from Unearthly Grace and Divine Grace are unnamed, so they should stack. As for items, I followed a simple route. Cloak of Resistance +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +6, Bracers of Armor +8, and Cloak of Displacement Major line up the defensive slots, bringing my Armor Class up to 44, my saves up to 34 33 33, and 50% miss chances 15 rounds/day. Now, onto the questions. I dipped into Monk for Evasion and WIS to AC, mostly. Are there any better choices to get those? Are there any Paladin variants that lose the mount for something? I don't see myself as using a mount too often. *Assuming there aren't any variants that do so, what are some potentially good alternate mounts? There's still a lot of money to blow after the listed items before; something in the range of 500,000 gold, I dunno, I didn't count. A Ring of Freedom of Movement seems like a good choice, but what else would be worthwhile, assuming that I'm trying to become a very, very resilient "tank"? Is there any other race or template that provides Unearthly Grace? The +7 from Nymph is rather steep, though the stat adjustments and abilities that go alongside aren't bad. I've yet to work on my offensive capabilities. The default is wading into combat, full attacking with a holy avenger, but with my STR as-is and the loss of BAB for LA, I'm suffering in the to-hit department. Is there a feat or something that lets me add CHA to my attack rolls? *I've got a rather lenient DM, and he's ruled that Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, and their ilk are legal spells for Permanency. He's also ruled that if a spell exists in both 3.0 and 3.5, you can use whichever version is more favorable. The obviously choice is 3.0 Haste, but are there any other potentially exploitable spells that I might get by? Your help is much appreciated.
#2 sofawall Jun 11, 2009 2:31:25	Paladins can dump the mount for a charging smite attack. You can cha to damage from Divine Might, but you need turning attempts. Luckily, you have them :D As for hitting, lemme see... Most seem to be limited times per day, like smite... I see Snowflake Wardance, but you need a level of Bard... Avenging Strike, from ToB, but that's times per day again. I dunno. EDIT: I forgot, the part where you want to be a super hard to hit/kill, you'd better also be very threatening. Enemies that have either animalistic intelligence or humanistic are going to avoid something they can't hit, but also does nothing to them. They'll ignore it and go for the squishy ones. It's what a DM should do if playing enemies right, most of them time. That's one of the main problems with the Monk, by the way. Just throwing that out there.
#3 cru Jun 11, 2009 3:46:54	First of all, a nymph has 6 fey HD and 7 LA, making her a ECL 13, leaving you only 7 class levels to use. I don't think a nymph is much use without house rules (e.g., ignoring HD, but even then it's not so good). If your DM allowed you to ignore HD, I'd rather focus on the druidic casting that nymph has. Try to get your DM to allow nymph casting stack with druid casting. There are also interesting druidic variants to use, such as: variant druid The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter. Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger). Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions). At the very least, swap monk 2 for druid 2. That said, I recommend swapping nymph for a pixie and use one of the excellent builds offered by the Pixie Handbook.
#4 fallen-angle Jun 11, 2009 17:03:04	I can agree that the nymph is awfully costly. If you are willing to go another route you might consider going: Monk 2, Hexblade 3, Paladin X (or throw some other PrCs in there. This way you'd still get Charisma to saves. Once from Paladin, then again against spells (which is the only place it will likely matter) via Hexblade. You also pick up both Evasion AND Mettle, allowing you to tool on a whole variety of casters. If you are dead set on the Nymph route, I still recommend getting Mettle (either from Hexblade or Pious Templar). Dipping into another PrC isn't a bad idea as well. You could go Paladin 5, Monk 2, Pious Templar 1, Ordained Champion 5. This will give you 10 levels of paladin progression for smiting, evasion, mettle, disturbingly good saves, and spontaneous casting of spells from the War Domain through your sword and normally.
#5 corania Jun 11, 2009 18:22:39	Are there any Paladin variants that lose the mount for something? I don't see myself as using a mount too often. Assuming there aren't any variants that do so, what are some potentially good alternate mounts? Charging Smite (Su)(PHB II): If along a charge attack you also smite evil, you deal an extra 2 damage per paladin level (that's 3 points per paladin bonus with the normal damage boost from smite evil). The important part is that if you miss on your charge attack, your smite ability is not considered used. Replaces Special Mount. Divine Spirit (Dungeonscape): You can call a spirit that helps you and your companions. It cannot be attacked except by dispel magic, banishment and dismissal as a summoned creature using your paladin level as caster level. It stays around for rounds equal to your paladin level. Replaces Special Mount. Spirit of Healing: This spirit can heal an amount of hit points equal to twice the amount you heal with your lay on hands ability. Moreover, it doesn't require an action on your part, as for someone to heal, he must end or begin his round on the spirit's square and use a standard action to activate it. Spirit of Combat: +1 sacred bonus on attacks and damage per four paladin levels to all allies that are adjacent or occupy the same square as this spirit. Also weapons are threated good-aligned for overcoming damage reduction. Spirit of Heroism: Great tanking spirit. You gain DR 10/-, the benefit of the diehard feat and you can use your lay on hands as a free action 1/round. Spirit of the Fallen: Fast healing 10 to all adjacent allies and 1/round revive a character between 0 and -9 hit points who is inside a 30ft range. Damage healed equal twice your paladin level. Underdark Knight (CC): If you are going to be in an underground campaign, this is worth it. You give up your mount and gain some abilities that depend on your level. Stand Fast (City - web): As an immediate action, you can add your charisma modifier to a single saving throw to all allies between 20ft or to any roll to resist a trip, grapple, bull rush, disarm or sunder attack. Replaces Special Mount Of those, I would recommend taking Charging Smite. There's still a lot of money to blow after the listed items before; something in the range of 500,000 gold, I dunno, I didn't count. A Ring of Freedom of Movement seems like a good choice, but what else would be worthwhile, assuming that I'm trying to become a very, very resilient "tank"? I generally recommend writing up what you have in each of the magic item slots and make sure that you are filling each of them. Even some of the VERY cheap items add some useful bonuses even for a lvl 20 character, so it is a waste to let these slots sit open. The Magic Item Compendium has charts in the back that sort things out by slot and then price. These are great for this type of thing. Off the top of my head though, look for some things to boost your turn attempts if you are going to be using Divine feats. Obviously spending about 25% of your gp on each a weapon and shield is a good route to go (maybe an animated shield so you can keep using a two handed weapon for Power Attack/Smite fun). Fortification on your shield is a good call with what you are going for. Your a Paladin, so the Holy Avenger is good if you can get one. The Sudden Stunning ability provides an ability which has a DC based on your Cha and is usable a number of times / day based on your Cha. Best of all, it is a fixed 2000 gp, so this has good synergy with you. Belt of Magnificence from Miniatures is fantastic and will skyrocket your already high stats. Bead of Karma to use while buffing up. Belt of Battle... reliquary holy symbol... etc. Is there any other race or template that provides Unearthly Grace? The +7 from Nymph is rather steep, though the stat adjustments and abilities that go alongside aren't bad. As another poster noted, I think you are missing on how the nymph works since you are required to take the racial HD (6 of them in this case) as well as then be adjusted by the ECL. This really cuts back on your Paladining. Might be best to look at other races. I don't know if any others add unearthly grace. I would recommend something like Illumian, Hellbred or even just human. I've yet to work on my offensive capabilities. The default is wading into combat, full attacking with a holy avenger, but with my STR as-is and the loss of BAB for LA, I'm suffering in the to-hit department. Is there a feat or something that lets me add CHA to my attack rolls? Also mentioned earlier, snowflake wardance will do this but requires a level of Bard for it to work (I believe it takes uses of bardic music). However, Bard can synergize nicely with Paladin, so maybe a dip is in order (get devoted performer and all your pally levels will be giving you more uses of bardic music as well, so you can use this a lot; Initiate of Millil from Champions of Valor is another great one to add when going bard / pally). You might want to take a look at some of the better feats for Paladins as well. Goad would work very well since it is Cha based and your character is really needing something to help make him/her stickier. Battle Blessing makes most Pally spells quickened... very nice Sword of the Arcane Order is fantastic Animal Devotion and Plant Devotion are very solid feats and would work very nicely with your race flavor wise. Awsome Smite is a great Tactical feat, especially at higher levels Divine Might, Divine Shield, and Sacred Vitality are all solid divine feat choices Nymph's Kiss is nice if you can fit it in there... and well... you are a nymph after all. Finally, since you are going armorless here, you might want to take the Skilled City Dweller options from the Cityscape web enhancement. This will give you Tumble as a class skill, which works VERY nicely to help your mobility since you have speed and no armor check penalties.