Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 0:41:08	Specifically, reducing that -20 penalty on the Hide check after sniping, and allowing more shots per... "snipe". There's the obvious things, like using spells/items to increase your Hide skill, and I suppose Haste to give you extra attacks. But I'm looking for feats or class features that reduce that penalty and make the post-sniping Hide check into something like a free action (rather than a move action). I have the following books: PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, Spell Compendium, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete Scoundrel, Frostburn, Heroes of Battle, and all those 3.0 class-specific guidebooks (Masters of the Wild, etc.). This is what I've been able to come up with on my own. It's not much: -Woodland Archer (don't have the book it's in; I'm going on what someone posted about this feat so I might not be 100% right) allows a maneuver called "Moving Sniper". First, you successfully hide at least 10' from your opponent. Then you shoot them and successfully hide, following the rules for hiding after sniping in the PHB. Then you can continue to snipe & hide, but you can make a move after you shoot & before you hide. From what I know about this feat, it doesn't reduce the -20 Hide penalty (please tell me I'm wrong!). But at least it allows you to shoot, move and then hide. -The tactical feat Shadow Striker in PHB2 has a maneuver called "Fade Away", as follows: "To use this maneuver, you must first attack an opponent as a standard action, then move away and attempt a Hide check as part of your move action for the turn. If your attack hits, it creates a momentary diversion, granting you a +5 bonus on this Hide check." If we apply that to sniping with a bow, it seems like you'd take a -20 penalty, but also a +5 bonus on the Hide check, making your penalty on the Hide check after the shot -15. Is this a correct interpretation? If so it's a step in the right direction... but still only allows a standard action in which to fire, and the Hide check is still a move action. That's all I can come up with, but it seems like it should be possible to do better. The rules are screaming for a feat that makes sniping easier, so I can't believe one doesn't exist. As for the specifics of the character, I have a Ranger7 with archery focus and the usual archery feats (Pt Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot). To maximize the sniping potential, I'm considering Cragtop Archer or Deepwood Sniper, but not sure about either. Deepwood Sniper only exists in Masters of the Wild and was never updated for 3.5. Cragtop Archer seems just ok. So any suggestions about these or other classes to take would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
#2 jaronk Nov 02, 2008 0:50:02	Halfling Rogue 10 racial sub removes you special ability but gives you the ability to hide at -10 after sniping, and reduces the action time. JaronK
#3 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 10:20:52	Should have mentioned the character is human... not the best for optimizing Hide, but the extra feat & skills are useful for an archery build. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Anything else, like feats, class features, skill tricks, items, etc.?
#4 muertog Nov 02, 2008 11:46:28	Regarding magic items: Cloak of the Bat (DMG 252): +5 Competence Cloak of Elvenkind (DMG 253): + 5 Competence Blueshine (MIC 9): +2 Competence Rogue's Vest (MIC 130): +2 Competence Blueshine is not bad for the cost, and protects armor from acid/rust effects. Fails to stack with the cloaks, though... just think of it as an intermediate effect and upgrade to the next later. Additionally, remember that you cannot hide unless you have some sort of cover or concealment. Makes HiPS much more important.
#5 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 12:17:11	Thanks for the tips, Muertog. MIC = Magic Item Compendium, I'm guessing? I should try to find that at some point. Well, the ranger's Camouflage allows you to hide in any natural terrain with no cover or concealment. HiPS lets you do it while being observed, which would be great for when your Hide check fails or if you don't win initiative. Since most sniping would most often happen outdoors, I'm tempted to stick with Ranger at least up to Camouflage at lvl 13. But then, 15 gets me a 4th favored enemy and level 4 spells... then it's just 2 more levels to HiPS. Don't know if it's worth it to go from 17-20 just to grab an additional favored enemy at 20, though. I did manage to find the Able Sniper feat through a google search. Gives you a +2 bonus to ranged attack rolls against a flat-footed enemy at least 30 feet away, and it also gives a +4 bonus to the Hide check after sniping. If I can get that to work with Shadow Striker (+5 to Hide after a successful single attack), that gets the penalty from -20 down to -11. I'm not sure about Shadow Striker, though (or specifically the Fade Away maneuver). It doesn't seem like they designed it with sniping in mind.
#6 muertog Nov 02, 2008 12:28:22	If you have some way of distracting the opponent, HiPS is unneeded as long as you have Camouflage. Just put points in Bluff and do the "Look over there! A Tarrasque!" trick and make like a tree (literally, in this case) while everyone else turns around. There is also the 1st level Ranger spell Camouflage (SC 43) that grants you +10 Circumstance to hide checks. Lasts 10 mins/level, so could almost be counted as an all-day effect. Forestfold (SC 98) also grants a +10 Competence (again, overlaps instead of stack on items) in one type of terrain. Lasts 1 hour/level, so definitely an all-day effect. If you are really concerned about HiPS, Shadowdancer works nicely for a 1 level dip, although the entry reqs are rather steep. Also works indoors and other locations that Camouflage fails in, although you have to remain in shadowy illumination area (or darker) for it to work. Bonus: You are no longer the "holding the light" wench of the party... "Well, if I hold the light, I can't use my ability, see!"
#7 carnivore Nov 02, 2008 14:52:08	here is a useful Feat: Able Sniper[General](RotW p148)req: Dexterity 13 ,Hide: 5 ranks When using at ranged attack on a flat-footed opponent who is at least 30’ away, you gain a +2 bonus on the attack roll. Gain a +4 bonus on Hide checks to hide again after making an attack roll from hiding (PH p76). :D
#8 muertog Nov 02, 2008 15:19:31	Invisibility effectively adds a +20 modifier to the Hide check, per Rules Coompendium (p76) when the opponent tries their Spot check. Example DCs: Active invisible creature: (Invisible creature's hide check +20) Invisible creature holding still: (Invisible creature's hide check +30) Invisible inanimate object or unliving creature holding still: (Invisible object's hide check = 40, unliving creature = hide check +40)
#9 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 16:09:01	Yeah, invisibility would clearly go a long way toward offsetting that sniping penalty. I don't think Shadowdancer will work; it requires 3 feats I don't have, and I'm already planning on filling up my remaining feat slots with things like Able Sniper, Woodland Archer, etc. Horizon Walker, though, might be useful here... very easy entrance requirements, good ranger-y skill list, good BAB, good Fort. Forest terrain mastery gives a +4 to Hide checks. Might be worth it even as a 1, 2 or 3 level dip. I'm wondering if it would be worth it to go 6 levels to get the dimension door ability... I'd be Ranger14/HorizonWalker6, with access to 4th level ranger spells, 3 favored enemies, things like Hide & Spot maxed out, and the ability to teleport every 1d4 rounds. Hmmm.... useful for sniping? A big question too is the potential (or not) for some synergy between the 3 feats: Woodland Archer, Able Sniper, and Shadow Striker. Here's the relevant bit from Shadow Striker's Fade Away maneuver: "To use this maneuver, you must first attack an opponent as a standard action, then move away and attempt a Hide check as part of your move action for the turn. If your attack hits, it creates a momentary diversion, granting you a +5 bonus on this Hide check." Does it sound like this would work with Able Sniper (which gives a +4 to Hide after sniping) and Woodland Archer (which allows a move after sniping and before the Hide check)?
#10 muertog Nov 02, 2008 16:18:16	As long as the bonuses are either unnamed or not the same type, shouldn't be a problem. Able Sniper requires 30' or greater distance, though. Causes problems with sneak attack, but that shouldn't be a problem in this case. In fact, you can make it work in your favor. Remember, there is a penalty to the opposing check for intervening distance... I know it applies towards the listen/move silently, but I think there is one for the hide/spot as well. Edit: Per Rules Compendium (114), each 10' of distance is a penalty of -1 to the Spot check. Same with the Listen check.
#11 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 16:45:55	I assume the bonuses would work together, but what I'm worried about is the move actions that are happening. In Woodland Archer, the Moving Sniper maneuver allows you to shoot (a standard action), move (presumably up to your speed), and then hide (at the usual -20 penalty). Presumably this hide check is a free action or somesuch. Shadow Striker's Fade Away maneuver allows you to hit (as a standard action), and then move away, making a hide check (with a +5 bonus) as part of the move action -- so you're not moving your full speed. What that means is we're dealing with 2 different speeds of movement. It also means that, if I interpret Fade Away as above, the Moving Sniper maneuver is made redundant because with Fade Away you can't move your full speed anyway. I don't think I can express it very clearly, but I just have a vague sense that these 2 abilities don't mesh well. Shadow Striker's other maneuvers are explicitly associated with melee combat; only Fade Away is not -- though one could argue that the intent was for Fade Away to be a melee maneuver, not a sniping maneuver.
#12 psorowman Nov 02, 2008 17:13:57	I'm not sure if this'll work, but if you have Improved Precise Shot, which allows you to ignore miss chance from concealment and cover, could you fire from full cover? Also, ranged combat mastery-piercing gives +2 to damage and attack and +20' range with piercing arrows Woodland archer from RotW is also pretty good. Edit: There is a scout variant from Dragon Mag that takes away skirmish, bonuses to ac, and fast movement but gives you sniping damage (+Nd6) if you take a full round action to make one shot.
#13 muertog Nov 02, 2008 17:33:06	If you have full cover (and thus the opponent has full cover), Improved Precise Shot fails to give any benefit. PHB 96: "Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks." PHB 151 (Low obstacles and cover): "The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target." Re Skirmish: If you are bothering to take scout levels, I would go whole hog and just take the Swift Hunter feat to stack scout/ranger levels for both favored enemy and skirmish damage. But then you have to decide if you are going to take 1 for just skirmish, or 3 levels to get the improved movement (which helps skirmish). Yes, it only works for under 30' away, but it is a good deal of additional damage when you really need to hit something hard. Problem with ranged attacks is at later levels you have to either have a boatload of different arrow types, or suffer through varying types of opposing DR. Skirmish is a good way to still deal damage even through DR.
#14 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 18:39:40	I think to take Swift Hunter, I'd need 3 levels of scout... prereqs for that feat include Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, which I think you only get at Scout3. Now that I think of it, Skirmish might work well with the Moving Sniper maneuver... I'd shoot, move, hide... shoot, move, hide, getting skirmish with every shot (if I'm right), which would mitigate the fact that I'm only getting a standard action to shoot. Ranger17/Scout3?
#15 muertog Nov 02, 2008 19:15:35	Ah, yes. Mistaking the requirements when I don't bother opening the book. I guess I keep thinking that the +10 movement is so handy that it is almost a requirement for anyone taking any levels of scout. :P I'm actually getting a character ready for a new campaign (1-20) who is taking scout/ranger/shadowdancer, along with the swift hunter, arcane hunter option, and tempted to throw in the wildshape alt feature for rangers for giggles. Take the form of an eagle or some other small flying creature with an attack and just do the equivalent of flyby attacks via spring attack (since the reqs for shadowdancer are the other two feats in that chain anyways). Imagine, if you will... a voice from the darkness saying "I am the terror that flaps in the night. I am the chill that runs up your spine..." Insert cheesy intro music, for full effect. ^_^
#16 countmrvhs Nov 02, 2008 20:44:18	Heh, that sounds cool. :D Arcane hunter is still a little unclear to me... you take "arcanists" as FE at 1st level, but do you have to swap anything out in exchange? FEs for my ranger right now are Evil Outsiders +2, Dragons +4. Think I'll pick up Magical Beasts at level 10, and either Giants or Humans at level 15 (if I keep Ranger that far). I'm toying with the idea of putting all the bonuses in Dragons just 'cause a dragonslayer/sniper/ranger seems pretty sweet. :D If there's room, I was thinking about taking Improved Favored Enemy too (+3 extra damage vs FEs). But I digress. Horizon Walker is quite tempting (certainly fits my character concept), but I'm not sure if the 6 levels is worth it. I'd like to keep at least 14 levels of Ranger so I can get access to 4th-level spells, so I could go Ranger14/HorizonWalker6 and Dimension Door around the place to different sniping positions. Never done it, though, so not sure how it would work. On the other hand, if I take 3 levels of Scout and go Swift Hunter, that leaves me with (potentially) room for 3 levels of something else: Ranger14/Scout3/???3. Order of the Bow Initiate might work well there... 3 levels comes with an extra 2d8 of damage (plus the ability to shoot in melee without provoking AoOs). It's a standard action to get the extra damage, but that would work with skirmish very nicely. OotBI is a bit feat-heavy, though, I think, so it might not be doable.
#17 muertog Nov 02, 2008 21:29:11	Arcane hunter can only be taken at your first level of Ranger, and is an alternate "Favored Enemy" selection. It acts as a favored enemy in all other respects, including improvements with future favored enemy selections. Works against anything that can cast arcane spells (or invocations), which includes Dragons. Only spells, not spell-like abilities, however. Horizon Walker is real easy for the ranger to get into, since you already have Endurance as a free feat. However, the dimension door ability requires a standard action to use, so you can't dim-door and attack in the same round, unless you also take Quicken Spell-Like Ability. If you take Scout instead, you could look over Travel Devotion (CC, p62), which allows you to move up to your standard movement as a swift action. Tack on the Scout3 movement bonus, you can move the 40', plus have 40' of move action, and still have a standard action (attack) left over. Once activated, it lasts for 10 rounds (1 minute). Talk with your DM and see if he would allow the Improved Precise Shot from Ranger 10 to meet the requirements of the OotBi class instead of having to also take Precise Shot. That would reduce your feat requirements down to Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus, since you also get Rapid Shot for free as well.
#18 NiteCyper Nov 03, 2008 3:27:00	There's a lot I could add to this thread but, right now, I'm not reading the thread in-depth. One thing it seems you are in need of is Hide in Plain Sight. The Dark template (+1 LA) gives that. There is also the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis that gives you the Dark template for 10 min/day or you can purchase the continuous version of the wondrous item (Tome of Magic, costs around 10k gp more). There's a PrC called 'Hellbreaker' that has a class feature called 'Mantle of Darkness' which is like HiPS but you can hide in your own shadow because it doesn't disallow it. Ranger, eh? I think there's a feat called 'Zen Archery' to add your WIS to your ranged damage. Also, Swordsage gives WIS to AC or Ninja. I mention this because a while ago, I was working on a ranged-fighter build. I could add DEX and WIS to most of my offensive modifiers and even use a feat or some odd class feature to change the WIS or DEX to, instead, apply my INT modifier. It's all fragged in my Stealth Handmanual in the first link of my sig. Later, I might glean and tell you some specifics. Gleaning is difficult on a Wii. Check out the Mole Handbook in SHCOL for tips on molery like what you're trying to do. It's probably tackled this problem before. Quicker Than the Eye (Bluff check to get extra partial action and if that action is an attack, they are flat-footed).
#19 ChristopherGroves Nov 03, 2008 8:18:11	And at range, Sudden Strike is as good as Sneak Attack typically (with caveats for the Distracting Attack ACF, Clarion Commander and other things that simply make people flanked)
#20 muertog Nov 03, 2008 8:59:29	HiPS is great, but I believe the OP was trying to avoid the need for it through use of the snipe feature where you can hide immediately after an attack at 10' or further away, albet at a -20 to the hide check. He's also relying upon the Camouflage ability to allow a HiPS-like effect, as long as he can manage to distract the opponent in the first place.
#21 countmrvhs Nov 03, 2008 9:00:23	Not committing to anything yet, but suppose I take Ranger17/Scout3. With Swift Hunter, that gets me: -full favored enemy progression -full skirmish (+5d6, +5AC) -Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight (Ranger 13 and 17) -2/2/2/1 Ranger spells (plus bonus per day) -1st 3 levels of Scout class features; most notably Battle Fortitude +1 and Fast movement +10 ft. With Able Sniper (+4 to hide after sniping), Woodland Archer (allows move after sniping & before hiding), and *maybe* Shadow Striker (not sure, but seems to allow a standard attack followed by a hide as a move action, for a +5 bonus to hide), I'd be doing extra 5d6 damage and taking -11 Hide penalty to try it all again, as long as I'm within 30 ft. of the enemy. With Camouflage, I can hide anywhere in natural terrain. HiPS seems like icing on the cake, but maybe not necessary, unless I lose initiative. On the other hand, Ranger14/Scout3/OrderoftheBowInitiate3: -4 favored enemies -skirmish +5d6, +4 AC (so I lose out on 1 AC; meh) -Camouflage (ranger13), but no Hide In Plain Sight except through items perhaps -2/1/1/0 ranger spells, plus bonus/day -1st 3 levels of Scout features -extra 2d8 damage from OotBI's Ranged Precision -good Will saves from 3 levels of OotBI -Close combat shot from OotBI - can shoot while threatened w/out provoking AoO In this build I lose out on HiPS, some ranger spells, a favored enemy, a single point of AC from skirmish, and some stealth capability (OotBI has 2 +Int skill points and Hide isn't a class skill). I gain 2d8 on damage to stack with my skirmish (enemy has to be w/in 30'), a Will boost (an achilles' heel of this build anyway), and close combat shot. When shooting & hiding (w/in 30'), this build deals more damage: regular bow damage +5d6 +2d8. But it's a little less stealthy. Now, if I went with either one of these builds, would I be essentially dumping my Rapid Shot? Currently, my ranger7 relies on full attacks with Improved Rapid Shot to get 3 attacks per round with no penalty. But if I went a skirmish/ranged precision route, would the extra damage from skirmish outweigh the advantage of taking a full action to make rapid shots? In other words, if I go Swift Hunter, should I just swap out Improved Rapid Shot for some other feat?
#22 muertog Nov 03, 2008 11:58:16	Consider the damage from a normal bow: 1d6, average 3.5 stick on Mighty for another +3 from Str Say another two different elemental damage mods (or one plus a crystal), 3.5*2 Favored Enemy bonus (say 2 on average, since not every enemy is a favored) That's a total of (3.5+3+7+2)= 15.5 You get 3 likely hits (and some assorted less-likely hits), for a total damage of 46.5 average damage per round with a full attack Scout/Ranger: Take the above, and add the skirmish damage (5d6), for an average of 5*3.5. Total average damage is 33, but for one shot only. Scout/Ranger/OotBi: 2d8 extra damage is 9, so total average damage is 42 on one shot. The rapid shot build has a little more overall damage, especially when you factor in the additional iterative attacks. Crit-focused builds would also boost that damage up a little more. However, it does suffer from a couple flaws. 1) Damage Reduction of any type hits that build hard. Elemental resistances are almost as bad. 2) Full attacks mean much more limited mobility, 5' steps only. Scout/Skirmish does close to the same amount of expected damage, but you are focusing all that attack in one shot. A couple bad rolls means you don't do any damage. Additional attacks mean bad luck is less of an effect upon damage. Makes TrueStrike a little more effective, since you only have to apply one shot, not 3.
#23 countmrvhs Nov 03, 2008 12:41:10	Thanks for working that out, Muertog! I have a couple degrees in English, so it's nice when someone else can crunch numbers for me. :D My character is blessed with good Strength (16), so he's got a +1 composite longbow right now with a +3 Str bonus. Right now my temptation is to keep Improved Rapid Shot; it's worked quite well for me so far. Last night we faced a young blue dragon (FE +4), and I was able to whittle away 50-60 hp from it with a full-round action: all 3 shots hit, and one was a critical. Plus, if I keep Imp. Rapid Shot, that'll still give me some long-range capability in an otherwise short-range build. Here's my current feat setup: 1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (human bonus), Track (ranger bonus) 2. Rapid Shot 3. Far Shot, Endurance (ranger bonus) 6. Manyshot (ranger bonus), Improved Rapid Shot Now, I'm planning on replacing Far Shot with something else, probably Able Sniper. The rest of the build would look something like this: 9. Woodland Archer 11. Improved Precise Shot (ranger bonus) 12. Swift Hunter (if I take 3 levels of Scout before this) 15. ??? 18. ??? I'm thinking Shadow Striker just doesn't seem to fit with what I want to do... the hide action/move action thing seems a bit wonky. One problem with going Swift Hunter is that I'd need to be sniping within 30 feet of the enemy. Not sure if it goes well with the whole "sniper" concept, but if I can manage to keep hidden & moving it could be quite cool. Order of the Bow could be a bit more problematic than I thought, too... if I take 3 levels of it, and 3 levels of Scout, I'll be at Ranger 14. Unless my Wis is 18 (which it probably won't be), I won't be able to cast 4th-level spells. Plus the loss of skills seems too harsh. NiteCyper, I'm looking forward to your suggestions! I thought Zen Archery added your Wis *in place of* your Dex, which in my case wouldn't be a good thing. I'll check out the stuff in your sig.
#24 muertog Nov 03, 2008 12:55:42	Zen Archery: CW p106 "You can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when making a ranged attack roll." Either/Or, not in addition to.