Help optimizing a TWF build - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help optimizing a TWF build

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
daedhaed
Feb 12, 2013 15:40:02 The idea for this character is to use ToB maneuvers, Raging Mongoose in tandem with Time Stands Still to get a boatload of attacks. According to CustServ White Raven Tactics can target yourself to allow for an axtra turn and the Island in Time ability of the Eternal Blade also grants an extra turn. During one of these extra turns Eternal Blades' Eternal Training ability can be used to regain the use of Time Stands Still as a free action. I also have a 1 level dip in Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy. Would like access to Haste but that may not be possible. Stance of Alacrity is used to take my Island in Time turn after my initial one and then use White Raven Tactics on myself during the Island in Time turn so I can get maximum benefit. I really don't have a build set in stone right now. I welcome any and all suggestions. Looking to up either my # of attacks each round or my damage output, whichever is better at this point.
#2
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 12, 2013 16:19:27 Easy. Ranger 2/Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10
TWF Power Attack for the win.
#3
Tempest_Stormwind
Feb 12, 2013 16:55:27 That is one of the simpler ways to do this, yes. The problem is you won't be able to get Time Stands Still in that build (you finish with 11 initiator levels and 9 non-initiator levels, so IL 15). The best we were able to do was in the Gun Fu build in my signature, where we managed to get IL 17 at level 20 (at the same time as a learned maneuver) with IL bootstrapping. The requirements on Eternal Blade, however, prevent this from being possible with that class. However, the tricks you can do with a Revenant Eternal Blade are well-known, particularly with Stormguard Warrior, so you probably won't need Time Stands Still.

Be advised that no one uses White Raven Tactics' custserv interpretation. You can get unlimited turns this way if you're building for it (an Idiot Crusader can simply delay until the end of the initiative order and then WRT over and over and over).
#4
daedhaed
Feb 12, 2013 17:24:12 Actually, I just saw a build that had a revenant eternal blade and he mentioned that if flaws are allowed then you could get Time Stands Still. I really wanted to add Ruby Knight Vinicator 7 to this because my DM ruled that I can spend any number of turn attempts as I have to gain swifts (which is insane) but then there is no Island in time for me.
#5
Maat_Mons
Feb 12, 2013 17:35:05
The diopsid race (Dragon Compendium) is an alternative to revenant blade.
#6
daedhaed
Feb 12, 2013 17:40:31 Issue with that becomes that you need to have Elf blood to qualify for Eternal Blade. Also the DM is allowing flaws and Chaos Shuffling if that makes any difference.

Edit: Also I can not find a pdf of the dragon compendium anywhere.
#7
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 12, 2013 17:54:19 Half-elf, ask if you can use a bloodline instead of a flaw. Even one bloodline level will increase your initiator level by four (to IL 19) at level 20.
#8
daedhaed
Feb 12, 2013 17:59:37
Half-elf, ask if you can use a bloodline instead of a flaw. Even one bloodline level will increase your initiator level by four (to IL 19) at level 20.

I'd still take the flaws to meet feat prerequisites but where is the part bloodlines increase IL stated.

Edit: can you be a Half-Elf Diopsid?
#9
radicaltaoist
Feb 12, 2013 18:36:05 You don't need to be an Eternal Blade; if Diopsid gives you the benefits of Revenant Blade then straight Warblade will do the trick. What is Diopsid like anyways?
#10
vortsukoto
Feb 12, 2013 19:35:28 Diopsids are bugs that can duel wield Two handed size large weapons and ignore the dex requirements for any feat with "Two Weapon" in its name. Diopsid Two Weapon Fighters as near as I can tell, are best used to Power attack the just as any normal fighter would, they just get benefits from grabbing Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Hit, and Two Weapon Pounce.

Personally I've been looking at how to TWF with halberds to use the Spinning Halberd feat. When used like that, it grant's 2 additional attacks with two handed weapons to Power Attack with and doesn't hurt your attack bonus.
#11
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 12, 2013 19:36:11 @RT: Diopsid is a +2 LA race with four arms, iirc. Unlike the thri-kreen, it can use two 2H weapons.
@dh: ToB was written well after Unearthed Arcana, so initiator levels aren't explicitly mentioned in bloodline descriptions. What IS explicit is that they increase "all level-based effects". Initiator levels count all levels in all classes, and any non-ToB class is counted as half. Therefore, each bloodline level adds an extra initiator level for Warblade, one for Eternal Blade, and half an IL each for ranger, barbarian, fighter, and Revenant blade.
#12
Maat_Mons
Feb 12, 2013 19:47:48
Diopsid is +1 LA. This transcription seems accurate.
#13
daedhaed
Feb 12, 2013 20:28:00
You don't need to be an Eternal Blade; if Diopsid gives you the benefits of Revenant Blade then straight Warblade will do the trick. What is Diopsid like anyways?

Eternal Blade isn't for that ability, Revenant Blade is. Eternal blade is for Island in Time and Eternal Training. Which bloodline level would you recommend?
#14
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 12, 2013 22:34:34
Eternal Blade isn't for that ability, Revenant Blade is. Eternal blade is for Island in Time and Eternal Training. Which bloodline level would you recommend?

Depends on how strong you want it to be, and what benefits you want it to grant.
#15
radicaltaoist
Feb 12, 2013 22:48:21 I'd just go straight Warblade if Diopsid is allowed, but I suppose a Diopsid Ruathar might be able to pull something funny off.
#16
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 12, 2013 23:11:38 Ruathar isn't like Stoneblessed; it won't "make" you an elf.
#17
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 12, 2013 23:13:31 Oh, and if Diopsid is on the table, the only reason to use ranger is for the class skills. That means you could go ranger 1/LST Barbarian 1/fighter 2/Warblade 16
#18
daedhaed
Feb 13, 2013 4:50:10 LST Barbarian? And at that point why not add Ruby Knight Vindicator into the build and then maybe some Master of Nine. Raging Mongoose + Dancing Mongoose + Garillon Windmill Flesh Rend + Time Stands Still seems pretty strong.
#19
Seeron
Feb 13, 2013 6:10:16 with LST, he prob means the Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian alternate class feature from Complete Champion, giving you pounce.
#20
Count_Von_CoC
Feb 13, 2013 8:55:21
LST Barbarian? And at that point why not add Ruby Knight Vindicator into the build and then maybe some Master of Nine. Raging Mongoose + Dancing Mongoose + Garillon Windmill Flesh Rend + Time Stands Still seems pretty strong.

It is, except that you only get 1 swift action per turn. And Mo9 would be a decent idea, except that it has crappy prereqs. And, and, and...

Honestly, just stick with your original idea; it's simpler. The best build for that would be (Elf or Half-elf) Ranger 1 (Just for the class skills need to qualify for RB)/LST Barbarian 1 (for Pounce)/Fighter 1 (Because you need a bonus feat to enter RB AT level 6)/Warblade 2/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10. Add in a bloodline, and for each bloodline level, you'll get +4 IL. For flavor reasons, I'd recommend Vampire, one of the dragons, or one of the giants. For reasons of not having your DM beat you about the head and shoulders with a blunt object, I'd recommend making it either a Minor or Intermediate bloodline.

Just make sure you take Martial Study once or twice for extra Tiger Claw maneuvers.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
daedhaed
Feb 13, 2013 10:06:31
LST Barbarian? And at that point why not add Ruby Knight Vindicator into the build and then maybe some Master of Nine. Raging Mongoose + Dancing Mongoose + Garillon Windmill Flesh Rend + Time Stands Still seems pretty strong.

It is, except that you only get 1 swift action per turn. And Mo9 would be a decent idea, except that it has crappy prereqs. And, and, and...

Honestly, just stick with your original idea; it's simpler. The best build for that would be (Elf or Half-elf) Ranger 1 (Just for the class skills need to qualify for RB)/LST Barbarian 1 (for Pounce)/Fighter 1 (Because you need a bonus feat to enter RB AT level 6)/Warblade 2/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10. Add in a bloodline, and for each bloodline level, you'll get +4 IL. For flavor reasons, I'd recommend Vampire, one of the dragons, or one of the giants. For reasons of not having your DM beat you about the head and shoulders with a blunt object, I'd recommend making it either a Minor or Intermediate bloodline.

Just make sure you take Martial Study once or twice for extra Tiger Claw maneuvers.

With Ruby Knight Vindicator you get as many swift actions in a turn as you have turn attempts is how my DM ruled it. A level dip in cleric gets me some turn attempts and access to 2 bonus feats from domains that could help meet prerequisites for MoN. As does a level dip in unarmed Swordsage.

That aside, the build you posted has no room for a bloodline level. Also, I don't know why everyone is pushing revenant blade. If I wanted to optimize for power attack I would play a battle jump character. AKA a dragoon. I wanted to optimize for Storguard Warrior. Using the above posted build would get a stack of books thrown at my head. Also, I can use flaws to mitigate some of the level dipping and I can pay wizards to chaos shuffle any useless feats into useful ones.

edit: Though I am trying to fit diopsid and some TWF into one of the builds on the following thread.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
#22
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 9:38:29
That aside, the build you posted has no room for a bloodline level.

Bloodline levels aren't actually levels.
Also, I don't know why everyone is pushing revenant blade.

As a guess, I'd say it's because you asked for help optimizing a TWF build. Barring houserules, Revenant Blade is the best and easiest way - and possibly the only good way - to do that.
#23
daedhaed
Feb 14, 2013 10:06:31
That aside, the build you posted has no room for a bloodline level.

Bloodline levels aren't actually levels.
Also, I don't know why everyone is pushing revenant blade.

As a guess, I'd say it's because you asked for help optimizing a TWF build. Barring houserules, Revenant Blade is the best and easiest way - and possibly the only good way - to do that.

Just because of Power Attacking with them? If you do that how do you even hit? Does the built require Shock Trooper, and if so charging does not interact with Time Stands Still at all. But I suppose with Shock Trooper on t1 then follow-up on t2 with Combat Brute during a Time Stands Still turn could be very devastating. Especially with Leap Attack. Also been looking at Time Stands Still with Dervish Dance. Could be very interesting.
#24
frost.fire
Feb 14, 2013 11:27:31 As a general rule of thumb if you want to go twf the best way to do so is to get bonus damage dice on each and every hit. This is because if you have 7 hits and 6d6 sneak attack you turn that into 42d6 sneak attack on your turn. If you don't want to go with bonus dice/on hit effects, the best way is to grab a greatsword and every power attack booster. The revenant blade is the only way you can mix these two ideas together. From an optimization standpoint they are giving you what you're asking for. If you want to do something different such as rkv then I would suggest looking at tess the molestress because she does a mix in the generic style using crusader or look into using more swordsage for damage dice then using the spell casting and divine metamagic to boost your spells to buff you to greatness. That's the best way from an optimization standpoint. If that isn't what you want then you're going to need to be more specific.
#25
daedhaed
Feb 14, 2013 13:12:10 I suppose I'll use the build posted earlier by count von with a few adjustments. Prolly go with Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Half-Minotaur with LA buy-off. Use 2 flaws to help with feat prerequisites. And I might as well go all out and take Major Titan bloodline to get Power Attack and Improved Sunder (for Combat Brute) all for free. Also with 3 bloodline levels that increases my IL by a whole lot. Need to fit Shock Trooper in some where. Prolly Chaos Shuffle Track into it or something. Using a 28 point buy so I need to figure out how to arrange my stats for this build.
#26
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 14:47:40 Search for a thread in this forum called "Optimization Contest" started by me. There are several TWF builds in there, including one featuring a Warblade-centric Revenant Blade that's heavy on Tiger Claw maneuvers. The biggest advantage to 2 levels of ranger is getting TWF for free without needing to meet the prereqs.
#27
daedhaed
Feb 14, 2013 14:54:15
Search for a thread in this forum called "Optimization Contest" started by me. There are several TWF builds in there, including one featuring a Warblade-centric Revenant Blade that's heavy on Tiger Claw maneuvers. The biggest advantage to 2 levels of ranger is getting TWF for free without needing to meet the prereqs.

True, however you still need to meet the prereqs for Improved and Greater TWF.
#28
Beldak_Serpenthelm
Feb 14, 2013 15:29:11 Or more ranger levels.
#29
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 15:33:27 Check out Glove of the Dextrous Hand. If you have TWF, you get Improved TWF for free. Greater TWF tends to be trap, because another attack at -10 is going to miss more often than not.
#30
frost.fire
Feb 14, 2013 15:39:51 Gloves of balanced hands that's improved twf with no preq. And greater isn't even worth the feat it will NEVER hit except in a precision build or with gimmiks
#31
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 16:48:49 Ok, here is the build I was talking about. It only uses a 25PB, so you can add a few extra points to it. It uses the standard Elite Array, so you can actually just play with the stats as much as you want. If you check 3 posts further down, you'll see the projected damage on a first round charge.
#32
StevenO
Feb 14, 2013 17:03:47 I'm sure we all like playing with the RAW but as far as I'm concerned the next "step" when it comes to TWF should just award the off-hand all the itterative attacks the main hand would get. To put it another way TWF cuts the penalties down enough to make it possible and then ITW fighting gives the off-hand all the itterative attacks it could make instead of just giving it +1 attack with another feat giving another attack (at -10) and an four feat needed to eventually give that fourth attack at -15. Perhaps I'd make the Improved TWF a little harder to get (and something would be done about those gloves) or tie the maximum number of off-hand attack to DEX modifier if someone is really worried about it breaking TWF.

#33
daedhaed
Feb 14, 2013 19:29:14 Saying that a third attack never hits due to -10 is like saying your third regular iterative attack never hits as well cause it is also at full BAB -10. I believe this statement to be false.
#34
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 19:37:35 It's not that it NEVER hits - it's that it doesn't hit often enough to be worth an extra two feats.
#35
daedhaed
Feb 14, 2013 20:47:44 But with my two flaws and bloodline giving me 2 feats I can afford the slots and still have everything in your build. I still like full Eternal Blade better though cause I built this based on Island in Time/Time Stands Still combo and with the Eternal Revenant build here it is very do-able
#36
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 22:06:10 That's fine, but here's something to think about: Would you rather spend those 2 extra feats on a feat you can easily get with an item plus an extra attack that will hit >75% of the time? Or would you rather use them on Martial Study so you can get high-level Tiger Claw maneuvers, for FOUR extra attacks per round at your highest attack bonus? That's a question only you can answer, dood.
#37
daedhaed
Feb 14, 2013 22:23:50 I feel like the answer is certainly Martial Study. Fair enough. Hey do you think I'd be able to post a build on that other thread you linked on the Optimization Competition?
#38
draco1119
Feb 14, 2013 23:07:49 Assuming Tempest is still willing to run it, I don't see why not.
#39
daedhaed
Feb 15, 2013 4:39:17 Are forgotten realms books automatically legal for that?
#40
draco1119
Feb 15, 2013 7:18:39 If they're 3.5. If they're 3.0, you have to ask.
#41
daedhaed
Feb 15, 2013 8:38:50 Unapproachable East is 3.5 right?
#42
draco1119
Feb 15, 2013 13:25:12 I think so. I know Oriental Adventures is 3.0; not sure about UE.
#43
daedhaed
Feb 15, 2013 13:46:47 Well I noticed a request to allow Valorous and that is UE so I put all my requests in. Some of them are just for gratuity but others are a necessity. Take a look on there and let me know if you have any objections to what I'd like to do and vocalize them on there for everyone.
#44
draco1119
Feb 15, 2013 14:11:58 If Valorous is from UE, then UE is 3.0.
If I remember right, fractional saves & BAB were already requested & rejected; I don't have a problem with any of it, but I'm not the judge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 daedhaed Feb 12, 2013 15:40:02	The idea for this character is to use ToB maneuvers, Raging Mongoose in tandem with Time Stands Still to get a boatload of attacks. According to CustServ White Raven Tactics can target yourself to allow for an axtra turn and the Island in Time ability of the Eternal Blade also grants an extra turn. During one of these extra turns Eternal Blades' Eternal Training ability can be used to regain the use of Time Stands Still as a free action. I also have a 1 level dip in Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy. Would like access to Haste but that may not be possible. Stance of Alacrity is used to take my Island in Time turn after my initial one and then use White Raven Tactics on myself during the Island in Time turn so I can get maximum benefit. I really don't have a build set in stone right now. I welcome any and all suggestions. Looking to up either my # of attacks each round or my damage output, whichever is better at this point.
#2 Count_Von_CoC Feb 12, 2013 16:19:27	Easy. Ranger 2/Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10 TWF Power Attack for the win.
#3 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 12, 2013 16:55:27	That is one of the simpler ways to do this, yes. The problem is you won't be able to get Time Stands Still in that build (you finish with 11 initiator levels and 9 non-initiator levels, so IL 15). The best we were able to do was in the Gun Fu build in my signature, where we managed to get IL 17 at level 20 (at the same time as a learned maneuver) with IL bootstrapping. The requirements on Eternal Blade, however, prevent this from being possible with that class. However, the tricks you can do with a Revenant Eternal Blade are well-known, particularly with Stormguard Warrior, so you probably won't need Time Stands Still. Be advised that no one uses White Raven Tactics' custserv interpretation. You can get unlimited turns this way if you're building for it (an Idiot Crusader can simply delay until the end of the initiative order and then WRT over and over and over).
#4 daedhaed Feb 12, 2013 17:24:12	Actually, I just saw a build that had a revenant eternal blade and he mentioned that if flaws are allowed then you could get Time Stands Still. I really wanted to add Ruby Knight Vinicator 7 to this because my DM ruled that I can spend any number of turn attempts as I have to gain swifts (which is insane) but then there is no Island in time for me.
#5 Maat_Mons Feb 12, 2013 17:35:05	The diopsid race (Dragon Compendium) is an alternative to revenant blade.
#6 daedhaed Feb 12, 2013 17:40:31	Issue with that becomes that you need to have Elf blood to qualify for Eternal Blade. Also the DM is allowing flaws and Chaos Shuffling if that makes any difference. Edit: Also I can not find a pdf of the dragon compendium anywhere.
#7 Count_Von_CoC Feb 12, 2013 17:54:19	Half-elf, ask if you can use a bloodline instead of a flaw. Even one bloodline level will increase your initiator level by four (to IL 19) at level 20.
#8 daedhaed Feb 12, 2013 17:59:37	Half-elf, ask if you can use a bloodline instead of a flaw. Even one bloodline level will increase your initiator level by four (to IL 19) at level 20. I'd still take the flaws to meet feat prerequisites but where is the part bloodlines increase IL stated. Edit: can you be a Half-Elf Diopsid?
#9 radicaltaoist Feb 12, 2013 18:36:05	You don't need to be an Eternal Blade; if Diopsid gives you the benefits of Revenant Blade then straight Warblade will do the trick. What is Diopsid like anyways?
#10 vortsukoto Feb 12, 2013 19:35:28	Diopsids are bugs that can duel wield Two handed size large weapons and ignore the dex requirements for any feat with "Two Weapon" in its name. Diopsid Two Weapon Fighters as near as I can tell, are best used to Power attack the just as any normal fighter would, they just get benefits from grabbing Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Double Hit, and Two Weapon Pounce. Personally I've been looking at how to TWF with halberds to use the Spinning Halberd feat. When used like that, it grant's 2 additional attacks with two handed weapons to Power Attack with and doesn't hurt your attack bonus.
#11 Count_Von_CoC Feb 12, 2013 19:36:11	@RT: Diopsid is a +2 LA race with four arms, iirc. Unlike the thri-kreen, it can use two 2H weapons. @dh: ToB was written well after Unearthed Arcana, so initiator levels aren't explicitly mentioned in bloodline descriptions. What IS explicit is that they increase "all level-based effects". Initiator levels count all levels in all classes, and any non-ToB class is counted as half. Therefore, each bloodline level adds an extra initiator level for Warblade, one for Eternal Blade, and half an IL each for ranger, barbarian, fighter, and Revenant blade.
#12 Maat_Mons Feb 12, 2013 19:47:48	Diopsid is +1 LA. This transcription seems accurate.
#13 daedhaed Feb 12, 2013 20:28:00	You don't need to be an Eternal Blade; if Diopsid gives you the benefits of Revenant Blade then straight Warblade will do the trick. What is Diopsid like anyways? Eternal Blade isn't for that ability, Revenant Blade is. Eternal blade is for Island in Time and Eternal Training. Which bloodline level would you recommend?
#14 Count_Von_CoC Feb 12, 2013 22:34:34	Eternal Blade isn't for that ability, Revenant Blade is. Eternal blade is for Island in Time and Eternal Training. Which bloodline level would you recommend? Depends on how strong you want it to be, and what benefits you want it to grant.
#15 radicaltaoist Feb 12, 2013 22:48:21	I'd just go straight Warblade if Diopsid is allowed, but I suppose a Diopsid Ruathar might be able to pull something funny off.
#16 Count_Von_CoC Feb 12, 2013 23:11:38	Ruathar isn't like Stoneblessed; it won't "make" you an elf.
#17 Count_Von_CoC Feb 12, 2013 23:13:31	Oh, and if Diopsid is on the table, the only reason to use ranger is for the class skills. That means you could go ranger 1/LST Barbarian 1/fighter 2/Warblade 16
#18 daedhaed Feb 13, 2013 4:50:10	LST Barbarian? And at that point why not add Ruby Knight Vindicator into the build and then maybe some Master of Nine. Raging Mongoose + Dancing Mongoose + Garillon Windmill Flesh Rend + Time Stands Still seems pretty strong.
#19 Seeron Feb 13, 2013 6:10:16	with LST, he prob means the Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian alternate class feature from Complete Champion, giving you pounce.
#20 Count_Von_CoC Feb 13, 2013 8:55:21	LST Barbarian? And at that point why not add Ruby Knight Vindicator into the build and then maybe some Master of Nine. Raging Mongoose + Dancing Mongoose + Garillon Windmill Flesh Rend + Time Stands Still seems pretty strong. It is, except that you only get 1 swift action per turn. And Mo9 would be a decent idea, except that it has crappy prereqs. And, and, and... Honestly, just stick with your original idea; it's simpler. The best build for that would be (Elf or Half-elf) Ranger 1 (Just for the class skills need to qualify for RB)/LST Barbarian 1 (for Pounce)/Fighter 1 (Because you need a bonus feat to enter RB AT level 6)/Warblade 2/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10. Add in a bloodline, and for each bloodline level, you'll get +4 IL. For flavor reasons, I'd recommend Vampire, one of the dragons, or one of the giants. For reasons of not having your DM beat you about the head and shoulders with a blunt object, I'd recommend making it either a Minor or Intermediate bloodline. Just make sure you take Martial Study once or twice for extra Tiger Claw maneuvers.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... daedhaed Feb 13, 2013 10:06:31	LST Barbarian? And at that point why not add Ruby Knight Vindicator into the build and then maybe some Master of Nine. Raging Mongoose + Dancing Mongoose + Garillon Windmill Flesh Rend + Time Stands Still seems pretty strong. It is, except that you only get 1 swift action per turn. And Mo9 would be a decent idea, except that it has crappy prereqs. And, and, and... Honestly, just stick with your original idea; it's simpler. The best build for that would be (Elf or Half-elf) Ranger 1 (Just for the class skills need to qualify for RB)/LST Barbarian 1 (for Pounce)/Fighter 1 (Because you need a bonus feat to enter RB AT level 6)/Warblade 2/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10. Add in a bloodline, and for each bloodline level, you'll get +4 IL. For flavor reasons, I'd recommend Vampire, one of the dragons, or one of the giants. For reasons of not having your DM beat you about the head and shoulders with a blunt object, I'd recommend making it either a Minor or Intermediate bloodline. Just make sure you take Martial Study once or twice for extra Tiger Claw maneuvers. With Ruby Knight Vindicator you get as many swift actions in a turn as you have turn attempts is how my DM ruled it. A level dip in cleric gets me some turn attempts and access to 2 bonus feats from domains that could help meet prerequisites for MoN. As does a level dip in unarmed Swordsage. That aside, the build you posted has no room for a bloodline level. Also, I don't know why everyone is pushing revenant blade. If I wanted to optimize for power attack I would play a battle jump character. AKA a dragoon. I wanted to optimize for Storguard Warrior. Using the above posted build would get a stack of books thrown at my head. Also, I can use flaws to mitigate some of the level dipping and I can pay wizards to chaos shuffle any useless feats into useful ones. edit: Though I am trying to fit diopsid and some TWF into one of the builds on the following thread. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
#22 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 9:38:29	That aside, the build you posted has no room for a bloodline level. Bloodline levels aren't actually levels. Also, I don't know why everyone is pushing revenant blade. As a guess, I'd say it's because you asked for help optimizing a TWF build. Barring houserules, Revenant Blade is the best and easiest way - and possibly the only good way - to do that.
#23 daedhaed Feb 14, 2013 10:06:31	That aside, the build you posted has no room for a bloodline level. Bloodline levels aren't actually levels. Also, I don't know why everyone is pushing revenant blade. As a guess, I'd say it's because you asked for help optimizing a TWF build. Barring houserules, Revenant Blade is the best and easiest way - and possibly the only good way - to do that. Just because of Power Attacking with them? If you do that how do you even hit? Does the built require Shock Trooper, and if so charging does not interact with Time Stands Still at all. But I suppose with Shock Trooper on t1 then follow-up on t2 with Combat Brute during a Time Stands Still turn could be very devastating. Especially with Leap Attack. Also been looking at Time Stands Still with Dervish Dance. Could be very interesting.
#24 frost.fire Feb 14, 2013 11:27:31	As a general rule of thumb if you want to go twf the best way to do so is to get bonus damage dice on each and every hit. This is because if you have 7 hits and 6d6 sneak attack you turn that into 42d6 sneak attack on your turn. If you don't want to go with bonus dice/on hit effects, the best way is to grab a greatsword and every power attack booster. The revenant blade is the only way you can mix these two ideas together. From an optimization standpoint they are giving you what you're asking for. If you want to do something different such as rkv then I would suggest looking at tess the molestress because she does a mix in the generic style using crusader or look into using more swordsage for damage dice then using the spell casting and divine metamagic to boost your spells to buff you to greatness. That's the best way from an optimization standpoint. If that isn't what you want then you're going to need to be more specific.
#25 daedhaed Feb 14, 2013 13:12:10	I suppose I'll use the build posted earlier by count von with a few adjustments. Prolly go with Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Half-Minotaur with LA buy-off. Use 2 flaws to help with feat prerequisites. And I might as well go all out and take Major Titan bloodline to get Power Attack and Improved Sunder (for Combat Brute) all for free. Also with 3 bloodline levels that increases my IL by a whole lot. Need to fit Shock Trooper in some where. Prolly Chaos Shuffle Track into it or something. Using a 28 point buy so I need to figure out how to arrange my stats for this build.
#26 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 14:47:40	Search for a thread in this forum called "Optimization Contest" started by me. There are several TWF builds in there, including one featuring a Warblade-centric Revenant Blade that's heavy on Tiger Claw maneuvers. The biggest advantage to 2 levels of ranger is getting TWF for free without needing to meet the prereqs.
#27 daedhaed Feb 14, 2013 14:54:15	Search for a thread in this forum called "Optimization Contest" started by me. There are several TWF builds in there, including one featuring a Warblade-centric Revenant Blade that's heavy on Tiger Claw maneuvers. The biggest advantage to 2 levels of ranger is getting TWF for free without needing to meet the prereqs. True, however you still need to meet the prereqs for Improved and Greater TWF.
#28 Beldak_Serpenthelm Feb 14, 2013 15:29:11	Or more ranger levels.
#29 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 15:33:27	Check out Glove of the Dextrous Hand. If you have TWF, you get Improved TWF for free. Greater TWF tends to be trap, because another attack at -10 is going to miss more often than not.
#30 frost.fire Feb 14, 2013 15:39:51	Gloves of balanced hands that's improved twf with no preq. And greater isn't even worth the feat it will NEVER hit except in a precision build or with gimmiks
#31 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 16:48:49	Ok, here is the build I was talking about. It only uses a 25PB, so you can add a few extra points to it. It uses the standard Elite Array, so you can actually just play with the stats as much as you want. If you check 3 posts further down, you'll see the projected damage on a first round charge.
#32 StevenO Feb 14, 2013 17:03:47	I'm sure we all like playing with the RAW but as far as I'm concerned the next "step" when it comes to TWF should just award the off-hand all the itterative attacks the main hand would get. To put it another way TWF cuts the penalties down enough to make it possible and then ITW fighting gives the off-hand all the itterative attacks it could make instead of just giving it +1 attack with another feat giving another attack (at -10) and an four feat needed to eventually give that fourth attack at -15. Perhaps I'd make the Improved TWF a little harder to get (and something would be done about those gloves) or tie the maximum number of off-hand attack to DEX modifier if someone is really worried about it breaking TWF.
#33 daedhaed Feb 14, 2013 19:29:14	Saying that a third attack never hits due to -10 is like saying your third regular iterative attack never hits as well cause it is also at full BAB -10. I believe this statement to be false.
#34 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 19:37:35	It's not that it NEVER hits - it's that it doesn't hit often enough to be worth an extra two feats.
#35 daedhaed Feb 14, 2013 20:47:44	But with my two flaws and bloodline giving me 2 feats I can afford the slots and still have everything in your build. I still like full Eternal Blade better though cause I built this based on Island in Time/Time Stands Still combo and with the Eternal Revenant build here it is very do-able
#36 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 22:06:10	That's fine, but here's something to think about: Would you rather spend those 2 extra feats on a feat you can easily get with an item plus an extra attack that will hit >75% of the time? Or would you rather use them on Martial Study so you can get high-level Tiger Claw maneuvers, for FOUR extra attacks per round at your highest attack bonus? That's a question only you can answer, dood.
#37 daedhaed Feb 14, 2013 22:23:50	I feel like the answer is certainly Martial Study. Fair enough. Hey do you think I'd be able to post a build on that other thread you linked on the Optimization Competition?
#38 draco1119 Feb 14, 2013 23:07:49	Assuming Tempest is still willing to run it, I don't see why not.
#39 daedhaed Feb 15, 2013 4:39:17	Are forgotten realms books automatically legal for that?
#40 draco1119 Feb 15, 2013 7:18:39	If they're 3.5. If they're 3.0, you have to ask.
#41 daedhaed Feb 15, 2013 8:38:50	Unapproachable East is 3.5 right?
#42 draco1119 Feb 15, 2013 13:25:12	I think so. I know Oriental Adventures is 3.0; not sure about UE.
#43 daedhaed Feb 15, 2013 13:46:47	Well I noticed a request to allow Valorous and that is UE so I put all my requests in. Some of them are just for gratuity but others are a necessity. Take a look on there and let me know if you have any objections to what I'd like to do and vocalize them on there for everyone.
#44 draco1119 Feb 15, 2013 14:11:58	If Valorous is from UE, then UE is 3.0. If I remember right, fractional saves & BAB were already requested & rejected; I don't have a problem with any of it, but I'm not the judge.