Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 soadfreak213 Jan 15, 2009 21:28:35	Hello everyone. I kind of really suck miserably at optimizing my characters (especially the last character I made). Anyways, my DM is running some campaign he got off of the internet somewhere about masks and **** and I don't really know much about it (nor do I want to bother to try to find out anything about it cuz that would just ruin it). Anyways, my situation was I was ECL 7 and the other two members of my party were ECL 6 because I'm either really awesome at RPing or they really suck (I'm not a very good judge). One of them is a sorcerer and the other is a bow fighter (and he has one of the raptoran prestige classes, I don't remember which). As I was saying, I was a dagger fighter (about to prestige class to invisible blade) when I decide to take some random offer to sell a portion of my soul in exchange for power. Long story short, I lose all my levels and gain 6 warlock levels plus any other level I want because of experience (we all leveled up, so I did technically lose a level). But there's a couple of catches. I got to keep some of my prior abilities (dodge, mobility, spring attack... please don't ask why I have those... suddenstrike +1d6, and weapon focus and weapon finesse for daggers, but I get to change them if I so choose). This all count as bonuses, meaning I still gain normal feats and whatnot. I also had to get a random character flaw and character trait which resulted in me getting (+1 sense motive, -1 intimidate, -1 diplo, -1 AC). I get to keep that point I added to an ability score. Speaking of, I get to switch any two ability scores with each other (before the modification by race). I figure this seems like a great way to make one of those builds with Teflammar Shadowlords. If someone could help me, that would be amazing. Basically what I'm doing is effectively making a character with the following guidelines: gray elf 6 levels of warlock 1 level of any other random class (it can obviously be warlock) bonus feats: dodge, mobility, spring attack, weapon focus, weapon finesse. ability scores (before racial bonuses): str 14, dex 18, int 19, con 16, wis 13, cha 14. (any two of those can be switched with one another and then racial modification applies). All normal elf racial traits. skills: intimidate -1, diplomacy -1, sense motive +1 AC -1 Sudden strike +1d6 if anyone is concerned about the unusually high ability scores, don't worry about it, my dm just happened to be unusually generous as far as rolling goes. All help is appreciated and if you have any suggestions over a teflammar shadowlord (like Ur-priest and switch int with wis and then go to eldrich deciple for example) will all be greatly appreciated.
#2 jenos Jan 15, 2009 21:58:41	Ok, given what you already have as a base, shadow pouncing seems REALLY ideal. You need to spend 1 feat and 1 level to get all the requirements for teflammer shadowlord, which makes it awesome. Build: Warlock 6/Rogue 1/Teflammer Shadowlord 4/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6 This will give you 1 Dark Invocation, 23d6 eldritch blasts which you eldritch glaive with, shadow pouncing. Required Feats: Blind-Fight, Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest). Thats it. Everything else is up to you. It only gets 15 BAB, which sucks, but it has a lot of open feats. If you want more BAB, replace Rogue with Sneak Attack Fighter. It means you need to get hide and move silently as class skills through some other means(There are feats that do that) and that will bump your BAB to 16 at 20.
#3 soadfreak213 Jan 15, 2009 22:07:36	sounds pretty wicked. Is there anything I should do to get rid of my AC which is probably going to blow (my character currently has no armor). Where we left off, our sorcerer (who wears mithril chain without any regard toward spell failure even though it has screwed him over on more than one occasion) was under the effects of a sleep spell because we ended very unexpectedly, so I'm thinking I might take his armor while he's sleeping and force him to use mage armor like he should (my character is CE).
#4 jenos Jan 15, 2009 22:15:50	There are lots of ways to boost your armor through items, but its all very dependant on how much gold you have. You want to get your AC up - with shadow pounce, you can use your standard action to flee the scene into a foe, and then tumble/walk out of its range(Mobility helps there).
#5 soadfreak213 Jan 15, 2009 22:20:23	I don't really know a whole lot about legacy champions, but doesn't that require me to have a legacy item?
#6 gorfnad_the_shiznit Jan 16, 2009 5:52:04	Build: Warlock 6/Rogue 1/Teflammer Shadowlord 4/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 9 Telfammar Shadowlord requires 2d6 sneak attack (however his build stuff does say he has 1d6 sudden strike as well) to work however this build might be more interesting and does not rely on Legacy Champion. Normally (excluding that extra sudden strike you got) I would say something like this Warlock 7 / Rogue 3/ Telfammar Shadowlord 4/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Uncanny Trickster 3 / X? 1 With that extra sudden strike however Warlock 6 / Rogue 2/ Telfammar Shadowlord 4/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Uncanny Trickster 3 / Telfammar Shadowlord 2 Uncanny Trickster's level 2 and 3 +1 level of existing class features can be used to increase the Hellfire Warlock progression beyond its normal capacity thereby adding in another 4d6 hellfire damage. For additional feats look into Darkstalker, Craven, and Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest, and/or any other sneaky/stabby rogue feats or warlock feats. When all else fails check Surreal's Index: Some handy links for CO work + handbooks
#7 gorfnad_the_shiznit Jan 16, 2009 6:05:46	Retooling a build or two from the Warlock Information Compilation gives you these two possibilities as well Warlock 6/ Rogue 1/ Telfammar Shadowlord 4/ Child of Night 9 or Warlock 6/ Swordsage 2/ Telfammar Shadowlord 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8 These might give you some interesting options as well
#8 jenos Jan 16, 2009 6:32:29	There are a number of sidebars fettered throughout different books that state that sudden strike counts as sneak attack for the purposes of entering prestige classes, so thats not a problem. The Jade Pheonix Mage is definitely an option. The previous build I listed focused more on maximizing the Hellfire Eldritch Blast, and using a single shadow pounce to quickly and effectively enter combat and do lots of damage in a single pounce. The JPM build focuses on using pounce to get of many attacks, at a lesser value. You also get other useful manuevars, so its up to you. Yes, the legacy champion build requires you to have a legacy weapon. You don't need to focus on it however - the point of legacy champion is not to make your weapon better, but to use the fact that Legacy Champion increases a previous class feature. In this case, you increase not warlock, but Hellfire Warlock's abilities, making every level in Legacy Champion(Except first and seventh) give you an additional 2d6 eldritch blast increase.
#9 alkarion Jan 16, 2009 8:23:45	Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest is not working! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080507a Q: Would the strongheart vest soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum p89) protect you from the ability damage of the hellfire warlock’s Hellfire Blast ability (Tyrants of the Nine Hells p90)? A: The strongheart vest soulmeld reduces the amount of ability damage you receive from an attack; however, it will not keep you safe from the costs of Hellfire Blast because the ability damage you are taking is not from someone attacking you.
#10 jenos Jan 16, 2009 9:15:26	Huh, I didn't know the sage had ruled on strongheart vest. That being said, a 1 level dip into binder makes it possible. Warlock 6/Rogue 1/Binder 1/Teflammer Shadowlord 5/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 4. You have 18d6 eldritch blasts, you can use full attack with three attacks, doing 48d6 per full attack.
#11 NiteCyper Jan 16, 2009 9:42:51	As a stealth-aficionado, I present the 'Simple Warlock Trick: Wall of Gloom http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-991343' thread. With such high INT, dip into Wizard and grab the Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt (Conjurer) ACF (Alternate class feature from PHB2, P.68(69)) to fuel your Shadow pounces even further. Take advantage of your high INT. Maybe you can 'Finesse' the Eldritch Glaive somehow and apply INT-mod to your damage with Swashbuckler 3 (Arcane Stunt ACF, CM). There's a thread floating around asking if the Glaive is finesseable is a reason why I bring it up. Edit: Guys, it's not Telfammer nor Telfammar; it's Telflammar.
#12 jenos Jan 16, 2009 12:30:40	The immediate magic is a cool idea. Warlock 6/Rogue 1/Binder 1/Wizard 1/Tefmlamar Shadowlord 5/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 3 You can flee the scene in, immediate jaunt again. You do 15d6 per attack, with a BAB of 11, thats three attacks. Two full attacks, you're looking at 90d6 3+int times per day. Also doesn't require a legacy weapon, which is nice. Your plan of levelling is going to want to be Warlock 6/Rogue 1/Tlemfaamr Shadowlord 5/Wizard 1/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 3
#13 soadfreak213 Jan 16, 2009 18:04:48	So how would play a JPM work? The serious lack of any warlock synergy kind of confuses me. Also, as much live for class dipping, I don't know how favorable taking a level of wizard would be.
#14 NiteCyper Jan 16, 2009 18:12:52	AH, I forgot to mention: Blend into Shadows feat (DotU, P.47(48)) along with the other feats that follow the same theme (e.g. Fade into Darkness). What do you mean 'favorable'? I thought you meant 'flavorable' there, for a sec. As we've pointed out, it is highly favorable. Do you mean that your DM might be against it because he's not a min/maxer and frowns upon optimization because he likes to play Drow Fighter 20s? Lastly, just for the sake of saying it, it'd be great if you could change your race to be a Xeph for Psionic Shot to add a bit more damage to your Eldritch Blast.
#15 jenos Jan 16, 2009 19:04:44	If he's going glaivelock with flee the scene to shadow pounce, would psionic shot even work? The point to using JPM is that there are stances/manuevars that work off of shadow pouncing to allow you to do more than 1 full attack when you pounce. The names escape me right now, but there are definite benefits.
#16 soadfreak213 Jan 16, 2009 20:49:54	About the wizard thing, I just meant that I kind of think that the level could be better spent since it wouldn't give me any BAB, the will would still be good, and I would probably be wearing armor so I would get spell failure, but I guess the extra shadow pouncing would outweigh all that (I'm assuming I don't actually need a really high BAB for this build because most attacks will be made as touch attacks against flat-footed opponents). I just didn't really think what I had said through. (and actually my dm is exactly the kind of person you mentioned earlier, only he has some weird pelor fetish so he plays clerics like hell). and about JPM... I'm also curious as to how warlocks actually meet the spellcasting requirement. I guess I vaguely understand how that works, but I think I would have to make some kind of argument with my dm who tends to be a real douche bag.
#17 soadfreak213 Jan 16, 2009 20:55:27	About the wizard thing, I just meant that I kind of think that the level could be better spent since it wouldn't give me any BAB, the will would still be good, and I would probably be wearing armor so I would get spell failure, but I guess the extra shadow pouncing would outweigh all that (I'm assuming I don't actually need a really high BAB for this build because most attacks will be made as touch attacks against flat-footed opponents). I just didn't really think what I had said through. (and actually my dm is exactly the kind of person you mentioned earlier, only he has some weird pelor fetish so he plays clerics like hell). and about JPM... I'm also curious as to how warlocks actually meet the spellcasting requirement. I guess I vaguely understand how that works, but I think I would have to make some kind of argument with my dm who tends to be a real douche bag.
#18 gorfnad_the_shiznit Jan 16, 2009 21:31:47	and about JPM... I'm also curious as to how warlocks actually meet the spellcasting requirement. I guess I vaguely understand how that works, but I think I would have to make some kind of argument with my dm who tends to be a real douche bag. Well with the build Warlock 6/ Swordsage 2/ Telfammar Shadowlord 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8, the Shadowlord levels give you 2nd level arcane spells thereby allowing you to meet the prereqs for JPM, under the spellcasting section of JPM it lets you choose to advance an arcane spellcasting class to which you previously belonged to, which means you can choose to have it advance the warlock. (for clarification check out Complete Arcane page 18 for warlocks with prestige class advancement and Tome of Battle page 114 for JPM)
#19 jenos Jan 16, 2009 21:49:16	About the wizard thing, I just meant that I kind of think that the level could be better spent since it wouldn't give me any BAB, the will would still be good, and I would probably be wearing armor so I would get spell failure, but I guess the extra shadow pouncing would outweigh all that (I'm assuming I don't actually need a really high BAB for this build because most attacks will be made as touch attacks against flat-footed opponents). I just didn't really think what I had said through. (and actually my dm is exactly the kind of person you mentioned earlier, only he has some weird pelor fetish so he plays clerics like hell). The point of the wizard level is specifically immediate jaunt. Immediate Jaunt will proc Shadow Pounce, is an immediate action, and can be done 3+Int Modifier times per day. That means with your int like a +2 or +4 item, you're looking at around 10 uses per day. Use it 3 times in 2 encounters and twice in the other 2 encounters, and that single level dip is giving you an additional 2-3 full attacks per encounter. Look at it this way, the maximum damage a single level can increase your damage by is 3d6. However, that is very rare, and only happens a liuttle over every 3 levels. Lets use 2d6 per level as a better base. Now, in a combat that lasts 10 rounds, thats 10 full attacks. That means you gain 20d6 damage from a level in something that raises invocations. A level in wizard with 10 immediate jaunts nets you 10 more full attacks. We then gain 2.5 full attacks per combat. That means we need 2.5 full attacks to do more damage than 20d6 damage. A full attack needs to fulfill 8d6 damage then, which you get amazingly early. A level of wizard will increase your damage significantly with the assumed 4 encounters per day at 10 rounds. Even if you double that(8 encounters 10 rounds each or 4 encounters 20 rounds each) you can still easily fulfill 16d6 per full attack, considering you're going to be doing something along the lines of 50d6 per full attack at level 20. Really, once you hit something around 10 to 12d6 per full attack it becomes better to increase the number of full attacks per turn rather than increase the dice, unless you can double it. For instance, its arguably better to do a hellfire glaivelock than a JPM, because you're looking at something like 100-120% more damage, which makes up for the fact that a JPM hits a massive amounts of time with shadow pouncing. Still, YMMV, and both builds are very viable. However, there are flaws to this, definitely. The biggest issue is that since you use Naberius, you will take additional con damage if you use Hellfire Blast more than once a round. I'm not sure how that works with multipouncing, but something to be aware of.
#20 soadfreak213 Jan 17, 2009 6:36:44	Well with the build Warlock 6/ Swordsage 2/ Telfammar Shadowlord 4/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8, the Shadowlord levels give you 2nd level arcane spells thereby allowing you to meet the prereqs for JPM, under the spellcasting section of JPM it lets you choose to advance an arcane spellcasting class to which you previously belonged to, which means you can choose to have it advance the warlock. (for clarification check out Complete Arcane page 18 for warlocks with prestige class advancement and Tome of Battle page 114 for JPM) omg, I completely forgot that I had spell casting from other sources now and now I feel like a total noob. I'm sorry to everyone who I'm being at least mildly difficult to, and thanks for all the help. And thanks for that explanation on the whole wizard deal. EDIT: I think JPM might be out for me, do to alignment restrictions.
#21 soadfreak213 Jan 18, 2009 19:05:29	Sorry to everyone who has a serious issue with people who double post. I get it. But I did just notice that I have a problem. I need Brimstone of Hellrime Blast for Hellfire Warlock and I need flee the scene for Telflammar Shadowlord. This means that I'll need to take Hellrime (or Brimstone) blast at level six and take my Hellfire Warlock levels before Shadowlord. I don't know how advantageous that is but that means I won't be getting shadow pounce for a while. Advice would be greatly appreciated.
#22 jenos Jan 18, 2009 19:27:06	Well, you can do it in a couple ways. First, you can take Flee the Scene, then take Teflammar Shadowlord. That does mean you need to spend two more levels taking warlock, though, so if you wanted Shadow Pounce asap, you would need to go: Warlock 6/Rogue 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 5/Warlock +2/Hellfire Warlock 1/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock +2/Uncanny Trickster 2. That results in: 5d6 base eldritch blast, 8d6 hellfire blast, so thats 13d6 total full attacks at 20. The other way, however, is to delay shadowpounce by two to three levels, which I think is probably better. Warlock 6/Hellfire Warlock 2/Rogue 1. From here, you can go either Binder 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 5 or Teflammar Shadowlord 5/Hellfire Warlock +1/Binder 1. I like the Warlock 6/Hellfire Warlock 2/Binder 1/Rogue 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 5/Hellfire Warlock +1/Uncanny Trickster 3/Wizard 1 This results in getting Greater Invocations at level 18, eldritch blast of 6d6, Hellfire Blast of 10d6, so a total 16d6 per attack. Add in Immediate Jaunt and mix well. You don't get shadowpounce until level 15. However, even until then, you can still make use of the fact that you'll be hitting for 4d6 eldritch +4d6 hellfire at level 9 or 10 on a full attack.
#23 soadfreak213 Jan 18, 2009 19:34:42	Thank you so much. I'll probably go with the second build. Any strong suggestions on feats (I can't really think of any that just jump out at me).
#24 jenos Jan 18, 2009 20:11:36	If you're starting out at level 7, I suggest you take the binder level before going into hellfire warlock, because without Naberius, hellfire can quickly drain your life to dead. Also, I do want to point out that the Sage isn't official. It is highly regarded, but your DM may or may not want to follow his rulings. Ask him about the sages ruling - if he disagrees, then definitely just drop the binder level and pick up Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest). Unlikely for him to do that, but it can't hurt to ask. I also want to point out that I'm an idiot - all my builds have been using TS 5 instead of TS 4, because for some stupid reason I thought it got shadow pounce at level 5 instead of 4. So thats a level of shadowlord you can drop in my builds, and stick in some other useful things(BAB is probably going to be a big help). Also, feats/invocations. I think its been assumed this entire time, but just to confirm - you NEED eldritch glaive. Shadow pouncing is kinda pointless without it(As a warlock). Feats, I'm a huge fan of Abberation Blood->Inhuman reach, from Lords of Madness. Being 10' away from foes sometimes makes a big difference, especially once you start pouncing. You'll be able to pounce into a fray with a foe that may not threaten you, full attack, then immediately run away from him. You end your turn 40'(or more) away from him, then repeat once again next turn(I'd actually only try to be around 25' feet away from him, because your flee the scene range is going to be crap, around 35-45 feet depending on your levels, and if he runs the other way you may have to move then flee the scene into him, resulting in you ending your turn next to an enemy) Deadly Defense from complete scoundrel could be helpful. Ask your DM if it works - theres a bit of debate as to whether or not not Glaive can be finnesed. The way I read it, it can be, but ultimately its your DM's call. Combat expertise lowers the penalty if you feel that -4 is too big a hit(Depends on your stats/touch AC of foes you face) Martial Study/Stance is always huge, because there are plenty of things you can take. Stances are wonderful things. However, I'm not going to pretend to know even the good ones to take, let alone mess with trying to figure out when the best time to take the feat is based on IL. But look around, it can definitely be a powerful choice. Oh, and duh. Power attack! Who cares about a -3 penalty when you make a touch attack, anyway? Check to see light weapon issues with your DM again on this. And take a look at magic of incarnum - there are a bunch of generally useful soulmelds out there. Shape Soulemeld: Planar Ward is one I always love, because at the cost of a single feat, you get immunity to a lot of annoying and potentially deadly things.
#25 soadfreak213 Jan 18, 2009 21:40:26	Yeah, I was already well aware of the Eldrich Glaive part. I don't think I'll be able to convince my DM to let me finesse it (much like I couldn't convince him to let me use the shape soulmeld. Out of the four invocations I get to take, I think I'm going to go with Eldrich Glaive, Baleful Utterance, and either Hellrime or Brimstone blast (I've yet to weigh the pros and cons). it just occurred to me that I could use dark speech effectively once I take that level of binder so I might think about taking that once my will save is high enough. As for getting reach, I think shadow pounce only works if you teleport adjacent to the enemy. As for that extra level I'm gonna have just sitting there, I'll think about it, I don't have any ideas at the moment, but I'll come up with something. Maybe I'll drop it into Warblade or Barbarian (I would do spellsword or blade singer, but those require me to take feats that I would gain absolutely no benefit from) or maybe I'll take a level of thrall of demogorgon (BoVD) but that also requires me to toss some feats. edit: I could also consider Abjurant champion or unseen seer.
#26 jenos Jan 18, 2009 22:20:48	Teflammar's shadow pounce is specifically worded to allow you to use it if you have a reach weapon. Shadow Pounce (Ex): At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation. The shadowlord must have line of sight on his intended target from his original location, and the spot to which he teleports must be a place from which he can launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action. Bolding mine, it works just fine. And the reach is well worth it.
#27 soadfreak213 Jan 18, 2009 22:24:26	thanks. it's been a while since i've read it. sorry :D
#28 true_shinken Jan 19, 2009 8:34:53	Hellfire Warlock is pretty iffy without Binder since Strongheart Vest does not work. I say Thug (Sneak Attack fighter) works pretty well - or Swashbuckler. Eldritch Glaive works like a touch spel, so following the weaponlike spells entry from Complete Arcane would allow you to get Insightful Strike on your EG attacks (and with that high Int, it would pretty much rock). If you can swap your weapon finesse for something else, that's a pretty good bang for your buck. Swashy 2 and Thug 1 unlocks Daring Outlaw, which is always nice - plus you could use the skills with that high Int. You could also swap your Int with your Cha and go Warlock/Cyran Avenger.
#29 jenos Jan 19, 2009 8:40:50	The problem with Thug(Sneak attack) is that surprisingly, hide and move silently are NOT on its skill list. You need to find a way to get them as class skills, or you can't enter Teflammar Shadowlord until like level 17. Second, there is no hard and fast rule that says Glaive works like that. Its not a "touch spell" in the full sense of the word, because you make an attack that happens to be a touch attack. There are arguments for both sides(There was a thread a few weeks back specifically for this) and it ultimately comes down to DM's judgement on this. The OP's DM has said it can't be finessed, so swashbuckler can't work.
#30 true_shinken Jan 19, 2009 8:45:02	Oh, he said it can't be finessed? I missed that bit, silly me. I can't really see how this swings both ways, but meh. I think Ninja could work. +1 sudden strike, swift action invisibility and all. Also helps that AC issue... do Warlocks qualify for Ascetic Mage?
#31 jenos Jan 19, 2009 9:03:45	No, because warlocks do not cast spell. If it listed a specific 2nd level spell(For instance, able to cast shatter) it could work, but not as it is. Also, I'd really think that Rogue is a better fit than ninja. With a wis of 13, theres not a lot he can do with that. He could switch the INT with WIS, but then you lose more skills. Its a bit of a toss up. Not to mention you'd have to go even more levels into ninja to get useful abilities(You don't even get invis until level 2). Rogue gives more useful abilities at level 1(More skills, Sneak attack > sudden strike). Besides, there aren't a lot of free levels in a build that has shadow pouncing. Warlock 6/TS 4 is a given, so you only have 10 levels to work with, one of which must be a sneak class to grab the needed skills. Hellfire Warlock+classes to increase it are far superior to increasing damage than sneak attack or sudden strike, or even skirmish.
#32 true_shinken Jan 19, 2009 20:44:05	Hellfire Warlock is very, very iffy unless you have Binder. Other than that, I agree with you.
#33 jenos Jan 19, 2009 21:29:39	Well...yes. Thats why the builds I've listed have a level of binder, except my first one because I didn't know the sage had ruled on strongheart vest.