Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SixGunLover Apr 20, 2009 0:33:11	Greetings everyone, I'm working on another character concept and though (as usual) I have a lot of ideas, I'm not too good on the build/optimization side, so I've come to enlist your aid (you've never let me down before). In short, the concept is a stealthy mercenary assassin who uses deadly maneuvers in melee combat. However, there are a billion builds already out there that meet this description; what I'm after is something that incorporates the following key elements. Unlike the typical stealth build, this character will have Strength as his highest physical attribute. Because of a campaign-related storyline in which he gains an Augmented template, his Strength score will be greatly increased. In optimization terms, this may or may not making considerable build changes, but I thought it was worth noting before I got 1000 "+1"s for a rogue dual-wielding kukris. If possible, I would like to incorporate unarmed combat. Having never played a Monk or Unarmed Swordsage or other such character, I'm interested in exploring this opportunity, but have no idea how the system of unarmed BAB and armed BAB relate. In an ideal world, I envision a character perhaps utilizing a mix of unarmed combat and melee (with a weapon of some kind), but I'm not sure if this would be build optimization suicide or in any way effective. I read an interesting feat (Whirling Steel Strike) in the Eberron Campaign setting which allows a longsword to be treated as a monk weapon (including flurry and so on). Is this worth looking into? I really like Tome of Battle, and would like to incorporate ToB maneuvers into this build. There are a lot of cool maneuvers that would fit this character concept and offer a lot of versatility. I'm not sure whether to go the Two-Weapon Fighting route or not. I guess the answer to this depends on the possibilities of mixing unarmed/armed combat or simply going unarmed or whatever. In terms of combat, he's a stealthy sneak attacker/sudden striker, but he's also more than a capable combatant in a straight-up fight, and just because I used the word assassin doesn't mean I feel the need to incorporate that prestige class unless it's beneficial to the build. In fact, I think the stealth attacker side comes secondary to the maneuver-based melee fighter side. If you've read Salvatore's stuff, think the Artemis Entreri type of assassin - stealthy, but at the same time an outstanding melee combatant. I don't wish to include any psionics or magic-using capabilities, and I'd prefer to keep the supernatural abilities to a minimum. Personally, I see some Swordsage (either Unarmed or the standard, depending on the viability of mixing armed and unarmed attacks), since it fits the concept so well and incorporates maneuvers; some Rogue or something else that grants Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike; perhaps some Monk if Flurry seems like a good route. This is where I need your help. Thanks in advance to any and all who respond. Feel free to ask any questions.
#2 gorfnad_the_shiznit Apr 20, 2009 1:42:43	Ranger 6/ Swordsage 4/ Dread Commando 5/ Bloodclaw Master 5 Human 1. Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Track 2. B: Two Weapon Fighting 3. Superior Unarmed Strike, B: Endurance 4. (Champion of the Wild variant from Complete Champion) B: Combat Expertise 6. Mobility, B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 7. B: Weapon Focus: Discipline Focus: Tiger Claw 9. Improved Natural Attack 12. Greater Two Weapon Fighting 15. Craven 18. Reaping Talons BAB 17, With the TWF chain and Unarmed Strike your attack would be (without Str or magic items factored in) +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 with Sneak Attack +2d6+20 (Assassins Stance + Craven) and Sudden Strike +3d6. For Favored Enemy go with the Arcane Hunter substitution in Complete Mage. With this build you don't need to go Unarmed Swordsage since Superior Unarmed Strike would not fully work to your advantage (since your monk level would be 4 from swordsage and superior ua strike would treat your monk level as 8 instead) and this also means you can still wear light armor. The way the TWF works for this build (excluding Str) is this BAB 17/12/7/2 With TWF 15/15/10/5/0 With ITWF 15/15/10/10/5/0 With GTWF 15/15/10/10/5/5/0 With WF/DisF Tiger Claw 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 With the penalties of TWF removed by Bloodclaw 18/18/13/13/8/8/3 Two Weapon Fighting does not care what the weapon is called only what size it is, unarmed strike is consider a light weapon for the purposes of TWF so therefore a penalty of -2 on attacks initially which is then removed by Bloodclaw Master. Edit: Buy-off Feral Template if possible.
#3 Grumman Apr 20, 2009 3:57:19	This is one I came up with before, but it didn't get much of a response: Shadow Creature Lesser Drow Warblade 5 / Dread Fang of Lolth 10 / Iaijutsu Master 5 It's a bastard sword-wielding, nigh-invisible Drow ninja. It doesn't have any inherent unarmed fighting ability, but you can full attack three times before anyone has time to respond.
#4 Dictum_Mortuum Apr 20, 2009 6:12:27	changeling rogue x/monk 2 alternative class features: changeling rogue sub levels, invisible fist (turn invisible 1/3 rounds IIRC), penetrating strike, disruptive attack. feats: ascetic rogue (monk + rogue stack for unarmed damage), carmendine monk (monk abilities use int instead of wis and you get +2 levels to some monk abilities if you study for 1 hour/per day). items: scorpion kama. So there you have it. Unarmed damage, maxed hide/move silently, invisibility, can pick up diplomacy/bluff/sense motive to play the social game and strength benefits her more than dexterity. You have both sneak attack, but you can hit hard with a little help from your unarmed damage (which is also easily optimized - improved natural attack, etc). My personal version of this character is located here
#5 SixGunLover Apr 23, 2009 19:24:29	Sorry for not getting back sooner, I've been away on holiday. Thanks for all the build ideas. Gorfnad - I really like that build, it's very close to what I'm going for. I particularly like the inclusion of Dread Commando - it's something I've been wanting to include in a build for some time now. What would you recommend as the primary weapon (in the primary hand, with unarmed strikes being used as off-hand attacks)? Does it matter? Also, what would be a good alternative instead of the five levels of Bloodclaw Master? It's a cool class, but stuff like the Shifter abilities aren't really in keeping with the concept. Thanks again.
#6 dr_rocktopus Apr 23, 2009 19:33:35	I love dread commando so much! Let me know how this works out.
#7 sofawall Apr 23, 2009 20:45:09	Hmm, melee stealth... Ok, this will be hugely MAD, needing high INT, CHA, and you said you wanted high STR, but high DEX and CON will benfit you as well. Basically, you dump WIS. This build is also capable at early levels, but his power increase geometrically in the last 4 levels. If you don't want that, stop reading now. So, we want high damage, sneakiness and unarmed, with little to no magic or Su. and some Tome of Battle. Having never ever once used Tome of Battle myself, and also having never actually read through all of it (which I guess I should, as not even the player using the Swordsage has) I can't really help there. What I can do is huge damage on the first turn, and making sure you get the first turn. So, what you have is this: 2 flaws (Shaky/Murky-Eyed) Strongheart Halfling (Font of Inspiration/Font of Inspiration/Font of Inspiration/Font of Inspiration) Fighter 1 (Improved Initiative) Fighter 2 (Weapon Focus (Katana)) Fighter 3 (Font of Inspiration) Fighter 4 (Quick Draw) Fighter 4/Factotum 1 Fighter 4/Factotum 2 (Font of Inspiration) Fighter 4/Factotum 3 Fighter 4/Factotum 4 Fighter 4/Factotum 5 (Font of Inspiration) Fighter 4/Factotum 6 Fighter 4/Factotum 7 Fighter 4/Factotum 8 (Font of Inspiration) Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 1 Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 2 Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 3 (Font of Inspiration) Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 4 Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 5 Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 6 (Font of Inspiration) Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 7 Fighter 4/Factotum 8/Iaijutsu Master 8 You'll need at least 43 katanas (42 for nova, 1 magic one for after), 30 Int, and a cha as high as possible. Put skill points into Hide, Move Silently and Iaijutsu Focus. You won't have sneakiness as a class skill at the later levels, but your int will be high enough to just dump two points into every level. You use Quick Draw and many katanas to use One Strike, Two Cuts with Iaijutsu Focus, then use Factotum's Cunning Surge to et another standard action. When the enemy is flat-footed, you do (Katana+Iaijutsu focus+Cha mod*number of Iaijutsu focus dice+1.5*str mod)*42 :D You will almost always go first, as not only are you sneaky enough to surprise anyone (Dark template (item, see below)/Size bonus/dex and int hide/move silently) but you get Int/Dex/Cha/+4 to initiative. You will 1 round many a BBEG. However, this is extreme nova as you can do this exatly once per encounter. I managed to get about 3900 damage, on average, with my only magical items being +6 item of Int, +6 item of Cha, +5 tomes of same and a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Oh, but make you sure you pick your 42 katanas back up again afterwards. EDIT: If your DM lets racial bonuses stack, Whisper gnome might be worth it, but you'd lose 10 inspiration points, or 3 standard actions.
#8 gorfnad_the_shiznit Apr 23, 2009 22:03:20	Sorry for not getting back sooner, I've been away on holiday. Thanks for all the build ideas. Gorfnad - I really like that build, it's very close to what I'm going for. I particularly like the inclusion of Dread Commando - it's something I've been wanting to include in a build for some time now. What would you recommend as the primary weapon (in the primary hand, with unarmed strikes being used as off-hand attacks)? Does it matter? Also, what would be a good alternative instead of the five levels of Bloodclaw Master? It's a cool class, but stuff like the Shifter abilities aren't really in keeping with the concept. Thanks again. Another option though it has some minor spellcasting Ranger 6/ Swordsage 2/ Dread Commando 5/ Swordsage 1/ Telfammar Shadowlord 6 Human 1. Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Track 2. B: Two Weapon Fighting 3. Superior Unarmed Strike, B: Endurance 4. (Champion of the Wild variant from Complete Champion) B: Blindfight 6. Mobility, B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 7. B: Weapon Focus: Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand 9. Improved Natural Attack 12. Spring Attack 15. Craven 18. Greater Two Weapon Fighting Or Ranger 6/ Swordsage 4/ Shadowblade 10 Human 1. Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Track 2. B: Two Weapon Fighting 3. Superior Unarmed Strike, B: Endurance 4. (Champion of the Wild variant from Complete Champion) B: Blindfight 6. Mobility, B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 7. B: Weapon Focus: Discipline Focus: Shadow Hand 9. Improved Natural Attack 12. Greater Two Weapon Fighting 15. Craven 18. Darkstalker Dodge and Mobility are not required for the above build so you can change the feats around according to your needs. Or Ranger 6/ Swordsage 4/ Dread Commando 5/ Master of Nine 5 Human 1. Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Track 2. B: Two Weapon Fighting 3. Superior Unarmed Strike, B: Endurance 4. (Champion of the Wild variant from Complete Champion) B: Blindfight 6. Mobility, B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting 7. B: Weapon Focus: Discipline Focus: Tiger Claw or Shadow Hand 9. Adaptive Style 12. Improved Initiative 15. Improved Natural Attack 18. Greater Two Weapon Fighting Really if your using your unarmed strike for offhand your main hand attack should be from one of the discipline focus either Tiger Claw or Shadow Hand for these builds. However Bloodclaw Master is nice since it lessens TWF penalties. You could also do Tempest 5 for the last levels as well to have a similar effect.
#9 SixGunLover Apr 24, 2009 0:22:49	Gorfnad - thanks for the response, and the additional builds. The 'Shadowblade' you mentioned; where is that presented? Is it the "Shadow Blade Assassin" from the Giant in the Playground Forums? sofawall - I have considered some sort of build using Iaijutsu Master and a katana as well, but all that stuff is 3.0, and making a decent Iaijutsu Master requires ranks in Iaijutsu Focus, which is limited to OA (again, 3.0) builds or something like Factotum (which I'd prefer not to use for this build). Are there any updated or homebrew versions of the Iaijutsu Master?
#10 sofawall Apr 24, 2009 7:21:11	We don't need one, 3.0 works with 3.5! Yay! WotC says that about 3e, unless it's updated in 3.5, it's fine from 3.0. Also, Factotum makes an excellent sneaky sneakster, as you gain Dex and Int to your sneakiness.
#11 unundindur Apr 24, 2009 8:22:35	Wow, finally a chance to post one of my favourites (although its only slightly up to your expectations): Drow Warblade5/Dark Hunter5/Assassin8 Feats: Improved Spel l Resistance, Track, Darkstalker, Leadership, Ability Focus (death attack), Martial study (shadow stride) This guy was built around high strength, breast plate, a scimitar and using death attack for what its worth. The reason I build it was to make a versatile drow who pumped death attack as far as a drow can, while maintaining a BaB of 16. Its kind of spesific though: Drow warrior/assassin :P Apart from that I will say that monk and Dread Commando fit perfectly together ,as you can swap the monk feats for dodge and mobility via unearthed arcana. If you also swap evasion for invisibility each 1d4 rounds via Examplars of Evil you have a perfect sneaky basis. So... Monk4/Ninja11/Dread Commando5 Feats: Lion Tribe warrior (human), Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge (monk), Mobility (monk), Weapon finesse, ascetic stalker, enduring ki, craven, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting. BaB 16 9d6+20 sudden strike Unarmed strike as a 15th level monk (+monk belt and you reach the cap) A whole hell of a lot of attacks Pounce Invisibility both 1d4 round (as immediate action) and as a swift action when needed. If you are allowed to take 2 flaws, you may as well take improved initiative and improved natural attack.
#12 gorfnad_the_shiznit Apr 24, 2009 16:25:20	Gorfnad - thanks for the response, and the additional builds. The 'Shadowblade' you mentioned; where is that presented? Is it the "Shadow Blade Assassin" from the Giant in the Playground Forums? Shadowblade is in Tome of Magic