I just joined an already started campaign of DnD 3.5. The character was originally another players, and he made some ... weird choices since he only cared about the roleplaying, while the rest of the group optimized their characters.
The other players in the group is a dual wielding scimitar fighter, a sorcerer and a Cleric of Tyr.
The character I inherited is also a fighter, sword and board.
Currently we are level two, soon level three, and I'm unsure of in which direction to take the character. Plus, we can only use the larger of the books.
The fighter is level 2, human.
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
WIS 14
INT 15
CHA 12
Feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus: Long sword
I dunno how well sword/shield works later on, and I don't really know where to take this later on.
Either multiclass into something augumenting.. Or keep on taking fighter levels to get some more feats..
I know that the rest of the group already have their mind set to different prestige classes that will make them really powerful later on, and I feel really.. Underwhelming at the moment..
What can I do to get the most out of my next few levels to compare to the rest of the group?
Power attack is a nice start. Have the character buy a greatsword in town, and drop the shield. Maybe buy a new one when you can afford an animated one.
Consider gabbing a few level in barbarian for rage.
What exactly are "The larger books"?
If you have the PHB 2, look into the retraining rules.
Also, curious why you can't just build your own PC and play them?
@Kurokishi: It's not an awful start, it's just not a spectacular one. You have amazing ability scores and can work to exploit that. However, as a pure Fighter, you do have a bit of work ahead of you - the class itself really isn't worth it, as without some serious optimization (usually based around attacks of opportunity, reach weapons, and effects like Robilar's Gambit, Overwhelming Attack, and maybe a weapon style), they tend to lag behind just about everything. There are ways to save it, though.
Sword-and-board isn't an ideal choice. You can get some pretty good defenses with it, naturally, and some shield enhancements are pretty badass, but the loss of double-damage-on-power-attack and synergy with Strength often doesn't cut it. (The main reason I'd use a shield is for the use of feats and maneuvers that operate with it.) Most of the time, fighter-types use two-handed weapons for that same reason. (This was jokingly referenced as the Second Commandment of Optimization: Wieldest thou thine two-handed weapon with alacrity, but two weapons shalt thou not wield, excepting that thou hast a source of bonus damage such as Sneak Attack. Your fellow fighter is almost certainly going for Dervish, which is one of the rare exceptions: it can rock with either two simitars or a two-handed falchion. The former is more common due to its Slashing Blades feature and can slow the game to a crawl, but the latter can cleave dragons in two.)
If feat retraining isn't an option, I'd suggest getting into Warblade ASAP. It'll let you reconfigure your weapon focus into any weapon you want; since you haven't locked in any feats on shield use, it'll be easy to transition to two-handed weapons, which is the way you want to go with Power Attack. You can then work towards any of the warblade optimization paths, while simultaneously developing Power Attack.
(Warblade will even let you put your Intelligence score to work, boosting just about everything that makes you a more technical fighter. They even qualify for fighter feats, albeit with a slight delay.)
Personally, I'd look into charge maximization: Your fellow fighter is probably aiming for Dervish, which'll let him dance around the battlefield and slice up multiple foes, so you may as well work on maximizing your single-target takedowns to deal with targets he can't handle. I'd suggest switching to either a greatsword, a reach weapon (to threaten a large area, basically acting as a wall), or a lance, which works wonders on a charge attack if you're mounted. There's also wonderful synergy with Power Attack if you end up going to the tactical feat options in Complete Warrior - Combat Brute and Shock Trooper are amazingly good if they're put to the right use.
You can combine Shock Trooper's ability to assign your Power Attack penalty to your AC instead of your attack roll with a White Raven charge attack and wipe out a single target (and probably the guy next to him thanks to Cleave), and compensate for the reduced defenses the next round with Diamond Mind saving throw counters and Wall of Blades. You then settle in as a typical warblade, which is basically acting just like a fighter but with some degree of mobility.
All of this hinges upon the Tome of Battle, though. It's certainly a flagship book, but it isn't one of the "larger" ones (by which I assume you mean the Compendiums and the Complete series).
If the DM is leery about that particular book, we can help explain it - there really is no reason whatsoever to ban it based on the rules, and the fluff is no stranger than the monk or the sorcerer. It really makes melee relevant again, and can be a blast to play.
I'm going to check up on the suggestions. If you have more ideas with only the basic books + complete series, I'd very much appreciate it.
Barbarian might be a fun idea. Also concidering Paladin, but since my lowest stat is charisma it feels like a waste.
edit: I'm actually concidering Duskblade, since I have 15 int..
How does a fighter/duskblade?
And how the heck does an Eldricht Knight compare to a dusk blade? Seems that a Duskblade is better in Every way imagineable.. :S
I might get a chance to retrain from my DM later.. Would Weapon Focus: Great Sword be the way to go then? Perhaps a spear or something instead? Thinking reach + touch spells.. Well?
You're quite right Tempest_Stormwind. Our characters are all important for the story.
Just "Tempest" is fine. WotC added the underscore during the board updates.
You are also right about the books. With larger, I mean the compendiums and complete. I do not know about the tomes, but if they are they are really that great I might try to convince my DM.
Try an argument like this: The Completes turn any cleric from merely "better than a fighter with a bit of effort" to "steamrolling the fighter with no effort"; other casters tended to fare even better. Furthermore, Complete Warrior was published earliest out of all the Completes (it was the first setting-neutral 3.5 expansion book), and shows signs of its age. Also, there are eight Complete books - Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer, Psionic, Mage, Champion, and Scoundrel. Without the Expanded Psionics Handbook, you lose Psionic, taking it down to seven. Note that the pure warrior archetype didn't get a second Complete book (and some of the stuff in Champion, in particular, is ridiculously broken)? That missing book for warriors is basically the Tome of Battle.
There's also more technical arguments (I once resorted to running a detailed analysis of the warblade vs. the barbarian against average monsters of every challenge rating to help clear things up on that) and fluff arguments (which are usually ill-informed), but the first one is probably the best place to start. It also helps to read the Tome yourself and be familiar with it.
I'm going to check up on the suggestions. If you have more ideas with only the basic books + complete series, I'd very much appreciate it.
Barbarian might be a fun idea. Also concidering Paladin, but since my lowest stat is charisma it feels like a waste.
It would be a waste. You have other exceptional ability scores and may as well work with them!
edit: I'm actually concidering Duskblade, since I have 15 int..
How does a fighter/duskblade?
Depends on the spell selection, but it would work! I hadn't thought about that since I thought you wanted a pure warrior-type, and also because I don't like damage spells, which is the duskblade's schtick, but it certainly would work, even with sword and board. Be sure to read the Duskblade Handbook if you go this route.
And how the heck does an Eldricht Knight compare to a dusk blade? Seems that a Duskblade is better in Every way imagineable.. :S
Not really - eldritch knight gets the Sorcerer-Wizard spell list, which is amazingly good, and can be entered by a pure wizard if you're an Outsider (even native outsiders are proficient with all martial weapons) or take the Militia character background feat from Forgotten Realms. (There's even cheeseball ways of entering based on Illumians (Races of Destiny) that can get into Eldritch Knight at level 2.)
The duskblade's advantage is a ridiculously high number of spells (Arcane Channelling and Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior) fuel all the way), plus an array of useful features that combine together to let you deliver touch spells and attacks all at once. They do wonders in breaching the defenses of single targets, but can't actually fight or cast as well as a standard warrior-type. The Eldritch Knight can, since the casting list it progresses contains buff spells. (The duskblade, by and large, does not.)
The duskblade's advanced learning trick lets him bypass this somewhat, but it isn't perfect. Still, you can be clever - for instance, Disintegrate is 6th level (beyond what a duskblade can learn)... but it's 5th level on the adept spell list.
I might get a chance to retrain from my DM later.. Would Weapon Focus: Great Sword be the way to go then? Perhaps a spear or something instead? Thinking reach + touch spells.. Well?
If you're already thinking duskblade + reach + touch spells (notably Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch), you've got good instincts.
The best reach weapon you're already proficient with is the guisarme - the glaive does more damage, but the guisarme can take advantage of your amazing Strength and trip creatures as well, letting you act as a wall. As an interesting side effect, you can take Stand Still (it's in the XPH, but isn't a psionic feat; it's also present in the SRD) to prevent creatures from moving through your threatened area, leaving them in reach for an arcane channelling strike on the following round. Note that if you allow the Tome of Battle, there's a casting prestige class there that is pick-your-jaw-up-off-the-floor all-kinds-of-crazy awesome - the Jade Phoenix Mage. It doesn't provide full casting advancement, but it does have a full attack bonus and provides martial maneuvers, plus features to link them together and a totally badass backstory. It requires some finesse to use with proficiency, though, and I'm not sure if the fighter levels will throw that off.
Good morning guys and girls!
I just joined an already started campaign of DnD 3.5. The character was originally another players, and he made some ... weird choices since he only cared about the roleplaying, while the rest of the group optimized their characters.
The other players in the group is a dual wielding scimitar fighter, a sorcerer and a Cleric of Tyr.
The character I inherited is also a fighter, sword and board.
Currently we are level two, soon level three, and I'm unsure of in which direction to take the character. Plus, we can only use the larger of the books.
The fighter is level 2, human.
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 14
WIS 14
INT 15
CHA 12
Feats:
Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus: Long sword
I dunno how well sword/shield works later on, and I don't really know where to take this later on.
Either multiclass into something augumenting.. Or keep on taking fighter levels to get some more feats..
I know that the rest of the group already have their mind set to different prestige classes that will make them really powerful later on, and I feel really.. Underwhelming at the moment..
What can I do to get the most out of my next few levels to compare to the rest of the group?
Hey there, I got to say that first off, you are a feat short being a 2nd level human fighter.
Second fo all, S&B are great!!! I am playing one, at 6th elvel, right now in a very difficult but rewarding campaing ( we are all 2nd ed lovers so our 3rd ed stuff tend to be more challenging by a large margin over teh standard 3rd ed encounter)
What is key to a S&B fighter are the shield feats, as of now how the typical combat goes is this i charge in with a shield charge- trip the guy (out of the few hundred times i have done this ive only missed once) then the next round i shield pummel somebody else knocking him rpone as well and move, and shield bash to daze another. other than the very first round of combat, I do not deal too much damage, but I have taken out at least 3 opponents by teh time the thrid round of combat starts.
I have foudn that most people want to be all about dealing a ton of damage as teh whole measure of how good theri character is. FOr me being a S&B fighter is more about total battlefield control, yes we can do it immensile better than wizards if you play the class the way its supposed to be played.
the higher you go up in levels the more overpowered the S&B fighter becomes, from being able to knock literally a dozen people out of the fight by level 16 in teh first 4 rounds to having every opponent suffer a -4 untyped penalty to their attacks, as well as having yourself have such a crazy high ac (vs touch as well) that you cannot even hit yourself reliably, its crazy. not to mention teh fact that every missed attack against you you can re direct towards another foe who is adjacent to you.
My guy is the one who right now walk into the midsts of 4 2nd levle barbarian ogres and emerge almost unscathed.
DO i deal as much damage as teh sonic specialed blaster sorcerer, or our back stabby bluff master rogue? No I don't but my character more so than anybody elses determines the outcome of a battle, and unlike the other half of my group, I am not trying for a full out crazy OP optimization, Just playing the role that teh 'tank' of a party should. the only person who is bored at out session is our cleric, as there is no point in him buffing me or healing me, yet at least, i'll be weak versus spells for the next 3 levels untill i can pick up some more shield feats., im getting the imp wep focus and imp wep spec before those.
Duskblade is a go from my DM. The only question now is where to focus my incomming feats, and whether or not I may change my weapon focus. If I may, the Guisarme seems like a fun idea. But if he won't allow it I'll keep my sword/board, and pick up a shield feat or two. One of the reasons I feel so underwhelmed is that even though I'm the only party member with a shield, I have the lowest AC.
The other fighter has a dex of 18, same armor as me and on top of that two weapon defence. >.< On top of that I have my longsword.. Although, I did make my DM drop his jaw when I dropped the shield, used the longsword in two hands and critted with a power attack.
Although, besides that, the pretty much only thing I did the last session was to plug an entrance and use a full defence action. 22 AC on lv 2 made me mariginally harder to hit compared to the others in the team. I did drop down to 1 hp when I was swarmed with some kind of vampire mosquitoes.. >.<
The cleric in the group became my best friend after that..
I really do have to check up on some of the maneuvres I can use too.. I didn't even know players could use trip. Only maneuvre we've used ingame so far is charge.. ^^
I'll report back when I get some more answers from my DM.
Thanks Tempest, Krusk and Cheiron.
(fyi: we're playing a campaign based on the Wheel of time series set in the Forgotten Realms.)
@Krusk: Maybe the character's part of the story? It's not all that uncommon to have a new player step into an existing role if the story demands it.
I don't think I could do that, but if you enjoy it more power to you. (I would ask the DM to DMPC that character for a bit, and fade them out of the story and bring in a new PC)
What is key to a S&B fighter are the shield feats, as of now how the typical combat goes is this i charge in with a shield charge- trip the guy (out of the few hundred times i have done this ive only missed once) then the next round i shield pummel somebody else knocking him rpone as well and move, and shield bash to daze another. other than the very first round of combat, I do not deal too much damage, but I have taken out at least 3 opponents by teh time the thrid round of combat starts.
I find this hard to believe, and I say this as someone who likes his shields. You're getting bonus actions somewhere. I see Shield Charge (CW) to knock a target prone on a charging shield bash, and Shield Slam (CW) to daze a target on the following round. The two can be combined on a charge - but Shield Slam on its own is a full-round action. You can't use it in conjunction with a trip attack (which is an attack action on its own; you get a free trip on charges due to Shield Charge), and you can't daze more than one target per round with this. (Improved Trip gives you an extra *attack* if you trip a target, not an extra full-round action).
At most, you have knocked one target prone (and dazed him), and either dazed OR knocked prone a second target. This also assumes none of the targets are bigger than you, more stable than you, or have longer reach than you, and that you yourself haven't been tripped by this point (note that in order to charge into a big pack like this, you have to move through multiple threatened areas, and thus provoke attacks of opportunity. These attacks can be trip attacks.)
You've given yourself ideal conditions and may be bending the rules. By this logic, I can say a two-handed fighter (we'll give him 18 Strength, just for a number; I suspect you're absurdly strong too since you "never" fail a trip attempt) can do a Shock Trooper (CW) heedless charge, combined with Leap Attack (CAdv), to attack at +12 and deal 2d6+24 damage, which will kill my target, followed by similar Great Cleave attempts at +12 dealing that much damage, and on the first round I've wiped out six targets.
(Actually, that doesn't bend the rules at all - it can be done with a 6th level human fighter, and still has room left over for extra feats. The only assumption is that the targets are weak enough - the same assumption you're making. I could even up the damage more by using a mount (2d8+48 damage on a lance with a charge; I don't have enough leftover feats for Spirited Charge, which would have raised it to 3d8+70), or by using a different class like a lion totem (CCh) barbarian. But that changes the assumptions of the character.)
I have foudn that most people want to be all about dealing a ton of damage as teh whole measure of how good theri character is.
You haven't been around the CO boards before, have you? Our best fighters aren't damage dealers, although we do those too. Rather, our best fighters are battlefield controllers. Allow me to explain.
I believe the mark of a good fighter-type is how well he can occupy enemies, preventing them from acting and attacking the squishier members of the team.
A dead enemy cannot act. If you can kill a monster in the first round, every other round of the battle is a round where it does not hurt your team.
If you can't kill it, you can at least lock it down - which is where trip attacks, Setting Sun throws, Thicket of Blades and similar come into play. Every action it wastes trying to do what it wants to do is an action not spent hurting your team.
If you can't kill it or lock it down, at least find a way to focus its attacks on you, since you have more HP and a higher AC than the others. This is where Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, and similar come into play. Every attack that is aimed at you is an attack not aimed at your team.
This is augmented through things like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit, bringing you back to killing things, by bringing things full circle.
Damage is important, but not essential. Controlling actions, now that's essential. And damage, in overwhelming quantities, can control actions.
FOr me being a S&B fighter is more about total battlefield control,
Which you're far better off doing with a reach weapon, by the way. It's the same reason in chess that the knight, positioned centrally, can be an intimidating piece early on.
yes we can do it immensile better than wizards if you play the class the way its supposed to be played.
...and if the wizard (or cleric) isn't doing his job.
Wizards can eliminate multiple foes in a single spell. That can be a single save-or-die, wiping out a significant target in one round (just like doing 100% of its HP in damage in one hit), or it could be a wall or similar spell that forces enemies to waste their turns going around or through it to reach your team, or it could be an illusion doing the same thing, or it can be a summoned monster giving more actions to your team, or similar.
Clerics can do the same sorts of things, but they can also turn themselves into melee powerhouses.
Druids can do everything the cleric does, and they do it with an animal companion.
Pre-ToB, fighter-types had to rely on two things: Charge attacks, and full attacks. If they specialized, they could work in one extra tactic, usually Trip (since it denied the enemy actions, and granted you extra attacks if done right), but fundamentally, it was charge, full attack. Both of these were full-round actions. This means the fighter cannot move, and has to be a stationary threat. The Tome of Battle added standard-action strikes and a few support moves (counters, boosts, stances, and a few untyped maneuvers) that gave fighters options and mobility, which they were critically lacking. All of a sudden, they can actually follow through on these threats - and believe me, fully understood, 3e's threats are every bit as lethal as 2e, but without any Appeals To Gygax - and thus free up the wizards, clerics, and druids from having to do the fighter's jobs as well as their own jobs.
You will notice the discrepancy more as you go up in levels. I'm surprised you don't already notice it, since your casters all have 3rd level spells now.
the higher you go up in levels the more overpowered the S&B fighter becomes, from being able to knock literally a dozen people out of the fight by level 16 in teh first 4 rounds to having every opponent suffer a -4 untyped penalty to their attacks, as well as having yourself have such a crazy high ac (vs touch as well) that you cannot even hit yourself reliably, its crazy. not to mention teh fact that every missed attack against you you can re direct towards another foe who is adjacent to you.
Please cite your sources. I recognize Shield Ward (PHB2) for the touch-AC claim, which is indeed quite good, but not as gamebreaking as you suggest it is.
To the best of my knowledge, the automatic -4 to attacks doesn't exist for fighters (you might be misreading Active Shield Defense (PHB2)), and the only way to get the redirect-attack trick is to use Elusive Target, which isn't a shield feat and doesn't share any of their prerequisites.
Furthermore, nearly all of that can still be done with 2-handed warriors. It's especially true with casters, but even without magic, the Tome of Battle helps here. Crusaders can impose a -4 untyped penalty to attack anyone but the crusader right at level 1. Furthermore, the crusader can delay incoming damage by up to 1 round, and converts damage he takes into retributive counterattacks. He even has maneuvers that can help restore that damage, prevent more damage from coming in, and block incoming attacks against people next to him. All of these can be done without a shield (although the use of a shield really amps up that last one), and in fact can be done *in addition to* half of the stunts you're referring to above, since it doesn't cost him any feats and he still has maneuvers to spare.
And I haven't even gotten into what you can actually do with a 2-hander that is unique to the 2-hander. Most of those involve reach. Hell, you don't even need anything other than a fighter to demonstrate this to you.
My guy is the one who right now walk into the midsts of 4 2nd levle barbarian ogres and emerge almost unscathed.
Psst: I'm playing a psion (caster, but nowhere near as ZOMGBROKEN as the wizard) at around your level. I can hold those ogres off too, and not lose any hit points while I do it.
If I were using a good 2-hander, I could make sure those 4 barbarian ogres didn't just have to deal with me, but that they couldn't just ignore me - and I'd be able to reach all of them. (Note that since ogres have reach, but you don't with your shield, the ogres could just stand on either side of you and you wouldn't be able to hit either one of them. If you moved to hit one, you couldn't also hit the other, and vice versa. Not the case with a reach weapon.)
If I were playing my wizard, I could actually end up with better-than-infinite AC, always-on. And that's without doing anything terribly cheesy - just an understanding of what AC means.
Show
Allow me to explain: A natural 20 will always hit. If your armor class is higher than your target's attack bonus +19, it doesn't matter how much higher it goes - you will still have a 5% chance of being hit. This means a nigh-infinite armor class still results in a 5% chance of being hit. Meanwhile, consider a wizard with an AC of 0 (i.e. he'll be hit every time), but with a simple Mirror Image spell and a Displacement spell, which doesn't change your AC at all. Instead, it produces 1d4+1/3CL copies of you. At level 6, that gives you 3-6 copies (we'll call it 4, the average). Every attack aimed against you has to choose a target, and (without special detection generally not available to creatures at this level) that amounts to a one-in-five chance of being correctly targeted - 80% of the time, an incoming attack will hit an image, regardless of the incoming attack bonus. If the attack targets the real you, it still has to overcome your 50% miss chance. This results in an actual chance of being hit of 20%*50%=10%. And that's with an AC of 0!
My approach was to use similar, independent effects that I could maintain more or less indefinitely (though I admit I couldn't get them going all the time at level 6, it wasn't long before I could). The important part was to get that miss chance from independent events. Collectively, despite my 11 AC, my chance of being hit was 2.5%, better than an infinite armor class. Certain magical effects could breach parts of that defense, but the same could be said for an infinite armor class too.
Of course, my first defense was to simply not be there, and my second defense was to get the enemy to waste his actions rather than hurt the party. This was accomplished with spells like Black Tentacles, Wall of Gloom, illusion effects, and transposition effects (i.e. if the monster rushed me or the thief, we'd magically switch places with our martial artists, both of whom could throw the monster around the field - causing it to waste more actions just closing with us again), as well as ludicrously strong save-or-die effects coupled with saving-throw-hosing spells. And that was before I got the ability to cast any evocation spell in the game, without preparing it in advance, and getting effects more real than reality. Even then, I stuck to save-or-dies, since at that level, damage is sub-optimial at controlling targets than AoE wall-type spells or save-or-dies.
My approach was to use similar, independent effects that I could maintain more or less indefinitely (though I admit I couldn't get them going all the time at level 6, it wasn't long before I could). The important part was to get that miss chance from independent events. Collectively, despite my 11 AC, my chance of being hit was 2.5%, better than an infinite armor class. Certain magical effects could breach parts of that defense, but the same could be said for an infinite armor class too.
Of course, my first defense was to simply not be there, and my second defense was to get the enemy to waste his actions rather than hurt the party. This was accomplished with spells like Black Tentacles, Wall of Gloom, illusion effects, and transposition effects (i.e. if the monster rushed me or the thief, we'd magically switch places with our martial artists, both of whom could throw the monster around the field - causing it to waste more actions just closing with us again), as well as ludicrously strong save-or-die effects coupled with saving-throw-hosing spells. And that was before I got the ability to cast any evocation spell in the game, without preparing it in advance, and getting effects more real than reality. Even then, I stuck to save-or-dies, since at that level, damage is sub-optimial at controlling targets than AoE wall-type spells or save-or-dies.
I must really say that I'm happy for all the help you all have given me!
Duskblade is a go from my DM. The only question now is where to focus my incomming feats, and whether or not I may change my weapon focus. If I may, the Guisarme seems like a fun idea. But if he won't allow it I'll keep my sword/board, and pick up a shield feat or two. One of the reasons I feel so underwhelmed is that even though I'm the only party member with a shield, I have the lowest AC.
Good to hear Duskblade's go! I linked the handbook above, you can most certainly find useful tools there.
A reach weapon can help with that. Being where you can't be hit is better than improving your AC. If you combine it with things like Stand Still, you can hold targets in place on their turn, preventing them from hitting the teammates or you - and then Arcane Channel them into oblivion on the following round. Plus, if you kill them, you Cleave - and more reach = more possibilities for targets to cleave.
On top of that I have my longsword.. Although, I did make my DM drop his jaw when I dropped the shield, used the longsword in two hands and critted with a power attack.
Aye, there's the power of two-handers. If the shield is important, just Animate it later.
Although, besides that, the pretty much only thing I did the last session was to plug an entrance and use a full defence action. 22 AC on lv 2 made me mariginally harder to hit compared to the others in the team. I did drop down to 1 hp when I was swarmed with some kind of vampire mosquitoes.. >.<
The cleric in the group became my best friend after that..
That's basically all a stock, pre-TOB fighter could do without serious specialization - be a roadblock with hit points. And without a reach weapon, you're not a very big roadblock either.
I really do have to check up on some of the maneuvres I can use too.. I didn't even know players could use trip. Only maneuvre we've used ingame so far is charge.. ^^
Well, as we've been saying, charge and full attack are just about everything a stock fighter can do without the ToB or spellcasting. With serious specialization they can handle one, maybe two of the other moves - trip, disarm, bull rush, grapple, sunder - and of them, only trip is really useful, and you get most of them for free with the ToB anyway.
- Tripping costs enemies their movement, gives everyone bonuses to hit them while they're prone, penalizes them if they're prone, and provokes an attack of opportunity if they try to stand up. It can be quite useful, but for it to really work, you need to be very strong, using the right weapon, and using it against the right foe. (Note: Tome of Battle Setting Sun makes this easy and powerful; it's all based around martial-art throws.)
- Disarming only works against foes who use light or one-handed weapons. Monsters and two-handed users tend to be pretty hard to disarm. (The Iron Heart maneuver Disarming Strike combines this with a regular attack.)
- Bull Rushing can be very, very useful, especially if you're very strong, since it doesn't require an attack roll - you just move into their square and it starts. I use this all the time with my summons (Astral Constructs; they have very high Strength and HP, but lack just about everything else). However, the effectiveness of bull rushing is dependent, very heavily, on the terrain, since it doesn't actually damage them. Still, without an attack roll, it can be very useful at lower levels, since you can't reliably hit things then (Stone Dragon's Charging Minotaur is a similar maneuver.)
- Grappling is a spaghetti-ball of rules no one ever wants to dig out. Ever. (No, not ever.) That said, with the right specialization, it can be pretty mean (i.e. sleeper-hold a dragon mean), if you actually slog through the rules to do it.
- Sunder has all the drawbacks of Disarm, except it destroys the equipment, which deprives you of loot if you win. (If you want to try this at all, Iron Heart's Exorcism of Steel works similarly without actually crippling you.)
Sword and Board build has to focus on flexibility. You can go either for Animated Shield Cheese or Improved Buckler Defense cheese...both give you ALL the benefits of a Shield, and none of the drawbacks. If your DM allows either one, then you need to switch. That's all there is to it. Get a Reach Weapon, slap on a buckler and do everything.
Neither option exists in Pathfinder. Animated sheilds are 4 rounds at a time, and IBD doesn't exist. It's one reason I like PF (closing down a lot of 3.5 holes is another).
You did, however, discover the best thing about a SAB build...you can drop the shield and go two handed at will. Guess what else? You can Two Weapon Fight at will, too!
Your goal as a shield fighter is Shield Ward, Improved Shield Bash, and Shield Spec. You want to get an Uber Shield: A +5 Spiked Bashing Shield, with +5 Defender. That's a 2-12 dmg weapon in your off hand, as a Heavy Shield. If Tof Battle is allowed, give it Adaptive, so it shares all your longsword feats. It's actually a BETTER weapon then a longsword is, just because of Bashing. Slap a Missile Defense Augment Gem on your shield.
With the Defender always On Defense, you've got +13 of AC, all Touch/Incorp worth, +17 vs missiles, and deflect first ranged attack.
You take no penalties when TWF, so when you want to get off a bunch of attacks, you have an extra one on hand.
You can get a glove of storing, stow your sword, and just beat about you with your killer shield.
DungeonCrasher options and Knockback combined with Shield Rush/Slam can do huge amounts of combo damage.
A level of Lion Totem barb to get charge on the run is totally advisable, and if you blow a feat on Extra Rage, you can rage 3 t/day...always useful.
In short, Sword and Board isn't a dead end...its power is flexibility in attack options, and massive defense. But you have to be able to convert that defense, too, into attack power...and that's REALLY hard to do without some Tome of Battle options.
===Aelryinth
You want to get an Uber Shield: A +5 Spiked Bashing Shield, with +5 Defender.
+1, not +5. Then turn to any full caster in your party and point out greater magic weapon. Way cheaper so you can spend some cash on something cool.
I've made a goal build for level 4, because from what I've gathered so far, we will progress Really slowly, so gimping myself to become greater later will not work. I'm stuck with the two levels of fighter though.
Human Fighter 2/Duskblade 2
STR: 18*
DEX: 14
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 16*
CHA: 12
*=Haven't decided which one to raise yet. In the example build I raise Intelligence to get the additional int modifier. Otherwise, Strength seem to be the default to raise.
Feats:
1 Weapon Focus: Guisarme + Power Attack + Cleave
2 Combat Expertise
3 Completely Lost
4 Class feature: Combat Casting
Ideas: Arcane Strike, Arcane Thesis, Arcane Disciple or Practiced Spellcaster.. If not one of these, maybe one of the other melee feats like improved trip, or combat reflexes? I know the dex mod is only 2, but maybe there is something else that works the same way that can utilize the reach?
I dunno if PS is worth it since I only have 2 fighter levels.. Maybe it could be worth it if I either took 2 more levels in fighter, or splashed a PrC? From what I gather, a Duskblade is very much viable for a Dragon Disciple?
Gear:
Guisarme + Spiked Gauntlet
Chainshirt
(I dunno how our DM will do with magical items so far, but my first guess is that we won't be able to buy or find specific magical items we want.)
Spells per Day:
0: 5
1: 4
Spells:
0:
Acid Splash
Distrupt Undead
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
1:
Chill Touch*
Shocking Grasp
True Strike
*= I need some help interpreting the spell here. Does this mean that I for example can activate the spell outside of an enemy's threat range, and then enter and touch him, and the next round touch him again and afflicting him again? How does this work/stack with Arcane Channeling, and Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) ?
Let's see here... Here is what I have got so far.
I've made a goal build for level 4, because from what I've gathered so far, we will progress Really slowly, so gimping myself to become greater later will not work. I'm stuck with the two levels of fighter though.
I never really liked "suck now, rock later" anyway. Let's take a look:
Human Fighter 2/Duskblade 2
STR: 18*
DEX: 14
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 16*
CHA: 12
*=Haven't decided which one to raise yet. In the example build I raise Intelligence to get the additional int modifier. Otherwise, Strength seem to be the default to raise.
Int is your choice here for exactly that reason. Odd attributes, especially on Intelligence (since it's the only ability score with a non-retroactive benefit, skill points), are just crying out for immediate boosts, and then you can settle in for the long haul. It's not quite as useful for Duskblades as it is for other casters, since bonus spells are a smaller proportion of their slots than they would be for, say, wizards, but it's always helpful, especially for the DC.
That said, I think your Strength is high enough - you can rely on magic to raise it higher later on. Boosting Dexterity from here on out improves your ray spells and your (hypothetical) Combat Reflexes feat, although it'll pay off less in the defense department since your armor will get heavier as you progress as a duskblade unless you keep your eyes open for things like mithral.
Feats:
1 Weapon Focus: Guisarme + Power Attack + Cleave
2 Combat Expertise
3 Completely Lost
4 Class feature: Combat Casting
Ideas: Arcane Strike, Arcane Thesis, Arcane Disciple or Practiced Spellcaster.. If not one of these, maybe one of the other melee feats like improved trip, or combat reflexes? I know the dex mod is only 2, but maybe there is something else that works the same way that can utilize the reach?
I dunno if PS is worth it since I only have 2 fighter levels.. Maybe it could be worth it if I either took 2 more levels in fighter, or splashed a PrC? From what I gather, a Duskblade is very much viable for a Dragon Disciple?
"Completely lost"? Not sure I know that one.
- Arcane Strike works best if you get multiple attacks; you might be able to put that one off until 6th level. You're right, it's a great choice for duskblades, but it may not be the best choice right now. (It's a great backup if none of the others fit, though, so don't count it out based on this recommendation!)
- Arcane Disciple is a good option depending on the domain you choose; your Wisdom is high enough. If you do it right, you can pick a domain with oodles of personal buff spells and shore up a weak point in the duskblade spell list. However, it does have story ramnifications, and I'm not sure if that's an ideal choice.
- Practiced Spellcaster... except in very specific circumstances (Ultimate Magus and the Ardent, though the latter's psionic), I never saw it as useful as other CO members did. Then again, I never play damage mages, and that's precisely where it'll have the most impact.
- Improved Trip requires a feat you don't have, Combat Expertise. It's an option but pricey. A different, cheaper alternative is Stand Still, in the SRD. Less damaging, but just as useful at holding people in place.
- Combat Reflexes is a spectacular choice, even with only 14 Dexterity (though that's about as low as I'd ever let Dex go if I was making an AoO fighter). That's still three extra attacks other than the main one you're making, and it prolongs your relevance on the field as a deterrent (a reach fighter's biggest advantage, the reach itself, isn't just useful at keeping yourself out of retaliation reach. It's most useful at casting a shadow on the field, a place where enemies can't freely walk through. However, that shadow goes away after you use up your last AoO. Combat Reflexes will prolong that, and best of all, it scales - if you find Gloves of Dex, there's an extra attack. If you boost your dexterity through spells or over time, there's another attack. And so on.)
- Dragon Disciple is overrated. It can be useful in very specific circumstances, though, and I think an Arcane Strike duskblade might be one of them. That said, I've never played around with that combination personally and can't attest to its viability.
My choice among these would be Combat Reflexes, with a second choice of Arcane Strike.
Gear:
Guisarme + Spiked Gauntlet
Chainshirt
(I dunno how our DM will do with magical items so far, but my first guess is that we won't be able to buy or find specific magical items we want.)
For more gear ideas, I'd suggest visiting Bunko's Bargain Basement, Shax's Indispensible Haversack, and The Utility Belt. They've got some very good nonmagical suggestions.
Spells per Day:
0: 5
1: 4
Spells:
0:
Acid Splash
Distrupt Undead
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
1:
Chill Touch*
Shocking Grasp
True Strike
*= I need some help interpreting the spell here. Does this mean that I for example can activate the spell outside of an enemy's threat range, and then enter and touch him, and the next round touch him again and afflicting him again? How does this work/stack with Arcane Channeling, and Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) ?
The rule with holding the charge is that you can cast the spell and then ignore it for a little while, and it discharges when you touch something, wait too long, or cast another spell. So yes, you could cast a spell, move in, and then touch him.
Chill Touch is a weird case; it's ported from 2e and keeps some of its weird wording. You'll need to check with your DM. Under one reading, it grants you the ability to make such touch attacks, up to one attack per level, subject to your usual limits on attacks per round. Hypothetically this even lets you use it to make attacks of opportunity (since holding the charge treats you as being armed). This reading assumes the "instantaneous" duration is incorrect. There is a perfectly valid alternate reading, that assumes the "one attack per level" is incorrect cruft pulled from 2e, and it just grants you a single touch attack like Shocking Grasp.
I'm away from books, and can't check on Arcane Channelling. I suspect channelling it ends the spell - I'm pretty sure that's how it works on the full attack version, at least.
Interesting side note: Power Attack and True Strike make a pretty interesting combination. You kind of need draconic feats to make it truly useful (Draconic Claw gives you a claw attack, and lets you attack with the claw as a free action when you spend a standard action casting a spell), but it's worth noting you have that option. True Strike is generally unduly favored as a spell choice, though - usually you have better uses for your actions than that.
Unless it's important that you keep to more subtle magic, I'd really look into Color Spray as a starting spell, particularly before you get Arcane Channelling. You're going to be level 3 - most monsters around that point are just churned to butter by that spell, and your Intelligence is respectable, especially after you boost it to 16.
You want to get an Uber Shield: A +5 Spiked Bashing Shield, with +5 Defender.+1, not +5. Then turn to any full caster in your party and point out greater magic weapon. Way cheaper so you can spend some cash on something cool.
+5 bashing + a +5 Defender is 108K...just a wee bit more then a +10 shield, so affordable before level 20...and you want the AC!
That said, if he can Adaptive and Discipline weapon on top, and rely on that GMW buff, yeah, good tactic.
==Aelryinth
With Completely Lost, I meant I was completely lost with what feat to get. ;)
Actually, since I noticed I only have 3 feats on my character sheet, I can pick one more right now and I was concidering Combat Expertise. This would lessen the pain of changing to a light armor or medium mithral if I can find it. Plus, from what I understand, True Strike + Power Attack + Combat Expertise = Win.
As for the feat that I am completely lost about I've narrowed down the list of candidates.
Combat reflexes, it really does seem to be nice with a reach weapon.
Improved Trip, since the little research I've done have told me that I can use tripping atempts as an AoO (Since I will be doing it armed). Although my conclusion is that it won't really shine until I have Combat Reflexes.
I just noticed the requirements for Arcane Strike, and I won't be able to pick it up until much later. But I most likely will. Although, what I'm looking for is probably a feat that help me with my casting as well.. Since I'm stuck with the fighter levels, I'm very much stuck with only slightly touching the 5th level spells. Are there any feats or classes I can pick up to ease that pain?
A few levels of barbarian for sure. Forget about frenzied berserker though. Bear Warrior for the win (complete warrior)
If your AC is a problem, get a mithral buckler and take Improved Buckler Defense. AC problem solved.
===aelryinth