Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 uhm_hoi Apr 06, 2010 18:55:02	Hi everybody. My group is starting a new campaign and I'm looking for some advice on my new character. I always want to make characters that can work well in combat as well as out of combat. Basically i think there are 4 major out of combat roles, first 1 is the face of the party (having high bluff, intimidate and sense motive), second is  the sneaky dude (finding traps, tracking, scouting etc), third is the nerd (having all useful knowledge's etc high) and fourth is the utility caster (scrying, healing, teleporting etc). The only one of those out of combat roles I haven't played yet is being the sneaky dude, so this time, I want to be the sneaky dude. When i red the trap killer barbarian variant class feature from dungeonscape I wanted to do something with that. We start at level 3 and this is what I got: Human able learner Ranger1 track, endurance (spiritual connection) (fav enemy = aberrations... my dm loves those) Barbarian1 (fox totem) (whirling frenzy) Barbarian2 power attack Str 15, Dex14, Con13, Int12, Wis10, Cha8 Hp 24 AC 20 Fort save +6 & endurance Ref save +4 Will save +0 Initiative +2 Attack +6  1d8+2  x3 Hide  6 (+8) Know dungeon 5 (+6) Know geo 6 (+7) Know nature 5 (+8) Move silently 6 (+8) Search  5 (+6) Spot  5 (+5) Survival 6 (+6 & synergy bonuses) Gear: Masterwork battleaxe Masterwork heavy steel shield Masterwork breastplate Masterwork composite longbow (str2) w 20 arrows Belt of healing Mule w chain mail for sleeping, spare battleaxe, survival stuff ~350 gold The plan is to take 2 more levels of barbarian for the trap killer and an extra daily use of whirling frenzy. Then at 6th level take a level of horizon walker to become immune to fatigue. I havent figured out what feat I should take at 6th level or what I should do after that. Also for gear, I know power attack doesn't work that well with a 1 handed weapon, but I figured I could switch to a 2-hander after a get an animated shield. The things I really want at higher lvls are 1) a higher will save (might be able to do it with fighter2 and the resolute variant class feature) 2) enough skill points to keep hide, move silently, spot and survival high and get some skill points in some roleplaying stuff like craft or profession or maybe even put some points in know arcane, religion, local, the planes and take the collector of stories skill trick. I could even build on that with knowledge devotion and veteran knowledge, but there are probably better feat choices. 3) do a good amount of damage in combat while keeping a nice AC and saves 4) if its possible have some other defenses against magic other then saves My ideas were taking levels in bloodhound and fighter2 or animal lord (wolf) and fighter2 or warblade with maneuvers that will boost my saves. I have no idea what feats I should take for either of these. The campaign will end at lvl ~13-15 and the books I can use are players handbook 1+2, dungeon master guide 1+2, all monster manuals, all races of the ... books, all complete ... books, cityscape, dungeonscape, frostburn, sandstorm, stormwrack, draconomicon, dragon magic, drow of the underdark, book of exalted deeds, fiendish codex 1+2, heroes of battle, heroes of horror, libris mortis, lords of madness, magic item compendium, spell compendium, miniatures handbook, tome of battle, tome of magic, unearthed arcana. Any help is appreciated.
#2 Maat_Mons Apr 06, 2010 21:46:11	Given that using survival instead of search imposes a -5 penalty, I think you should put your ranks in search over survival. Given that the option to use an attack roll to disable a trap doesn't work on magical traps, among others, you will want to put ranks in disable device. Given that your max ranks in disable device will be 3 more than your base attack bonus and you get +2 to disable device from masterwork thieves' tools, you should probably make the skill check in all cases. If you're going to use search and disable device anyway, you could just as easily gain trapfinding from the ranger variant, skip barbarian levels 3 and 4, and go straight for whatever other class interests you. If you go warblade, I'd skip barbarian 2 as well, unless getting improved uncanny dodge 3 levels earlier is really important to you. You can gain 2 extra uses of rage by taking the extra rage feat (Complete Warrior), which is generally a better deal than more barbarian levels. Considering that the fatigued condition imposed after a rage only lasts until the end of the encounter, I wouldn't place a high priority on immunity to fatigue. Instead, focus on making rage last an entire encounter. If you feel the 4 rounds you get now aren't enough and you can't wait for con increases, the extend rage feat (Complete Warrior) takes care of things better than endurance and horizon walker. Since you are considering the possibility of being attacked while sleeping, you will eventually want a restful crystal.
#3 lormador Apr 06, 2010 21:55:34	1. Ray of Resurgence is a 1st level Cleric spell that can provide some measure of protection against fatigue, so I'm not sold on Horizon Walker. 2. Constitution 13 suggests to me that you might want to become undead. This probably doesn't fit in with your character concept, but it would protect against a lot of the Will-save effects you're dreading. The Necropolitan template is from Libris Mortis, an allowed book. 3. There's a spell, I think it's from Complete Champion, called Disobedience which protects nicely against mind-affecting things. I wouldn't bother with the Knowledge Devotion thing. Save it for another character- this one has the skill points all tied up in other things. The old-school execution of this concept is the "Conan" Rogue 16 / Barb 4, which I favor.
#4 uhm_hoi Apr 07, 2010 7:58:46	I know trapfinding is more efficient than trap killer, but I simply like the idea of something is in your way - smash it. I'm really not that worried about magical traps since I think dispelling is one of the most underrated weapon enhancements out there. Rage feats aren't possible since I don't have rage anymore, I have whirling frenzy. I don't know if that's the official interpretation, but it is the interpretation my group uses and I agree with them. After thinking about it, I agree, fatigued is not a serious enough condition to spend a level on, so I probably wont take horizon walker. I do really want ranger1/barbarian4 though. Also I have no intention of becoming a necropolitan.
#5 TifRhal Apr 07, 2010 10:51:26	Frenzy is a form of rage so it will work with any feat that works with rage. It sounds like you and your group do not like that it has a name change simply change the name from extra rage to extra frenzy its the same mechanics just a name change. It says right in the description I bold and underlined so you can see it clearly. So you could get extra frenzy, extend frenzy and instantaneous frenzy there are other feats but they will all work with frenzy. He gains the bonus as noted when eneting a rage, so he is still raging he simply has different bonus well raging.  This is from the srd  Rage Variant: Whirling Frenzy A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action. Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4. A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy. A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability). For the fatigue I would look into Armor of the Unending Hunt complete warrior page 134 it is +2 mithral chainmail that gives immunity to fatigue and exhaustion
#6 uhm_hoi Apr 08, 2010 7:57:41	Yeah, like I said, I don´t know if the "whirling frenzy isn't the same as rage" interpretation is the official one. It is the interpretation of me and my group. Also, if you could use whirling frenzy as a prereq for anything with rage as a prereq, it would be really easy to make something really overpowered - which is not what I'm after. I just want a fun-to-play character that my group will accept as a rules legal character. While we are on this subject anyway, I don't have lion totem since my dm thinks it's overpowered, and I 100% agree. ... So... back on topic... the barbarian with lots of cool out-of-combat abilities... After reading the opinion of maat_mons and lormador I decided not to take horizon walker. Basically, this is what I curently have in mind: Human able learner Ranger1 track, endurance (spiritual connection) Barbarian1 (fox totem) (whirling frenzy) Barbarian2 power attack Barbarian3 (trap killer) Barbarian4 Bloodhound1 combat reflexes Bloodhound2 Bloodhound3 Bloodhound4 halberd focus Bloodhound5 Fighter1 two weapon fighting Fighter2 spinning halberd (resolute) lvl13+ more of bloodhound Things I like about this build: I'm always a big fan of extra attacks, that's why I selected the spinning halberd and whirling frenzy. I also like having a lot of skill points. I can max hide, move silently, spot, survival, get any synergy bonuses and still have the freedom of putting points into anything that will be handy in that particular campaign with that particular party. I also like having a decent will save at lvl12... In my experience that is the level where it really starts to hurt when you don't have a big will save. I also like the fact that my fort and ref saves are good at any lvl and my armor class is also pretty high. (I get a +2 bonus from whirling frenzy and I'm proficient with my favorite armor; the mithral full plate.) Last but not least I think playing a sneaky character with a barbarian point view on the matter would be a lot of fun. Instead of the delicate art of silently disabling a trap I just smash stuff that's in my way. Instead of bluffing my way out of hostilities I would intimidate or knock some guys out and still, even with all the characteristics of a brute, anyone would have to respect my skills when it comes to following tracks, surviving in the wilderness and my general knowledge of nature. Things that could be improved: I don't like the fact that my hide and move silently will be pretty good while I can't back it up with darkstalker. However, getting darkstalker means sacrificing spinning halberd, so I'll need a good alternative for that. Also I don't have any defenses against spells/spell-like abilities other than nice saves. Any advice is welcome and appreciated.