So this campaign is being run in 3.5 and will have only two players in it, myself and one other. The DM has warned us that it will be a very intense and challenging game. He said to take our pick between a gestalt character or a race with a +2 LA free of charge. I couldn't quite wrap my head around this because gestalt has always been a big no-no in his games and LA has always been enforced. When I pryed him for information I jokingly said "You planning on taking us to hell and back or what lol", to which he replied "...who said anything about back." So with that in mind I decided I needed to get the most out of this character.
My fellow player is a warlock/sorceror gestalt. I know nothing of her build. I am a melee guy, always have been, always will. So I decided to give warblade a go. Have not yet played it, but I have played the Crusader so I'm fairly familiar with the maneuvers. For my second have I figured Artificer would go a long way for both of us.
The area I am struggling with is feat selection. There are so many possibilities with the two classes I have taken. The direction I am leaning right now is dual wield longswords for tiger claw maneuvers which may also lead to dual wand(via wand chambers in the sword hilts) at a later time. This is not set in stone however. So the big question is, how would you optimize feat selection for this character. I will obviously end up the front line combatant as my partner is a fair bit squishier than I am. I am allowed two flaws. The university background feat is a freebie my gm told me to take from a d20book called feats. Outside sources are allowed but must first be approved.
1.-University background +8sp +2/level
-Scribe Scroll
-Human bonus feat
-Level 1 feat
-flaw feat
-flaw feat
2.-Brew Potion
3.-Craft Wondrous Item
-Level 3 feat
4.-Art Bonus feat
5.-Craft Arms/armor
-War bonus feat
6.-Level 6 feat
7.-Craft Wand
8.-Art Bonus feat
9.-Craft rod
-War bonus feat
-Level 9 feat
10.
11.
12. -Craft staff
-Art bonus feat
-Level 12 feat
13.-War bonus feat
14.-Forge Ring
15.-Level 15 feat
16.-Art bonus feat
17.-War bonus feat
18.-Level 18 feat
19.
20.-Art bonus feat
I've been through several builds now and at the end I keep finding myself lacking in one area or another. I realize I am not going to be able to optimize both halves of this class but I'd love to see what the fine minds here can produce. If it matters, we are starting at level 4 but I was advised to plan my build ahead as leveling in the start may be accelerated. I fear what our DM has in store hah.
EDIT: May also be important to know my stats. I have not finished juggling them around just yet to be honest. The DM assigned us 85 points (point for point), which amounts to 15 in each stat and move up and down accordingly. This is extremely high compared to our normal games, once again telling me he has something nasty in store for us.
The dm has never been very generous with magic item hand outs, but cashflow and downtime between games is pretty good so taking the artisan feats to supply us a bunch of gear will probably be a good idea. Been putting serious thought into the item familiar also. Cant decide if its worthwhile however.
Simple answer? I want to do it all of course! Which is causing me a huge headache trying to build this. I realize of course this cant happen and so , damage. Damage is my priority.
When creating a gestalt character, one must think of the interactions between the two classes. If both give you conflicting action options, it's generally not a good idea. One will be useless. Second, you must think of synergy. Artificer and Warblade don't give each other anything. It's not a very good deal. There's also the related fact that Artificers are both busted beyond all belief and incredibly difficult to use. By that, I mean a proper, prepared artificer player comes to the table with a binder full of spreadsheets and a calculator. It's a serious pain.
If you want Warblade, I suggest Warblade//Factotum. The int synergy is great, and they don't compete with each other, with Factotum being a generally passive class while warblade is a generally active class, but you can still get high damage from things like Iaijutsu Nightmare Blade and multiple actions from Cunning Surge.
If you really want to craft, I suggest looking through Magic of Incarnum.
At the end of the day though, Factotum's probably at least as good at this, and not nearly as complicated. Get a huge pile of action economy, and lay the smack down.
The plan with this char would be using cleric for long durations buff and persists and charging everything and everyone do death.
You'd prefer White Raven and Tiger Claw together I take it?
Really, Swordsages have just about the best list for a charger. It's hard to beat. The only real thing they're missing is WRT.
y but i personally dont really like the maneucer list from ss for a twohandedd charger.
Good god, man! Use your keyboard! Or spellcheck! Or something! I can ignore a lot, and forgive more, but, seriously?
EA sorry i hurt your grammar nazi senses, but i wrote this early in the morning on my mobile, while riding on a train.
I really didn't think drawing the line at aich hrrble mspleeling tu th piunt od mking it neer impossbll 2 reed qualifies me as a grammar Nazi. Dare I ask what it takes to bring in the hyperbole gestapo?
. I realize artificer is not the greatest choice as a second have for warblade. The primary reasoning for it was to keep myself and compatriate supplied with magic items for as cheaply as possible. My DM, whom I've been playing games under for about 4 years, runs an amazing game. He is, however, beyond cheap with magic item hand outs. He refuses to use standard treasure tables and awards what he feels like. He doesn't use standard XP tables either for that matter. Something I've always thought strange but as far as XP goes sometimes its more than we deserved, sometimes its less. In the end it all balances out pretty well. We do aquire a fair amount of wealth and he's never given us a problem with purchasing raw materials to create our own gear. In the last campaign the warlock/sorc was an Artificer and we played through to level 15. We had everything we could want more or less because of her.
Looking at all the feedback makes me feel better about the fact I've been struggling to optimize this character. I've been exploring some other options now, looking at things such as factotum (which I love other than the arcane dilletant ability-such a small choice of spells would infuriate me with the decision of what to have ready lol). It does fit the idea of the character though. He is fronting himself as a "monster/demon/undead hunter" for hire, but he's a crook, charlatan, thief, amongst other things in the background, so having such a wide variety of skills and abilities might suit me...but leave us starving for magic gear. I had also considered such things as a couple level fighter dip, or maybe a feat rogue. I dont like psionics at all so thats out. Cleric is an option, but it would probably have to be favored soul option. As far as flavor goes I'm not much for the character that spends every morning praying with this guy.
Bottom line is, I need to be able to face some seriously tough challenges with this guy, and knowing that the minds here are finer than mine when it comes to this type of stuff I'm starting to re-think artificer. Especially since I think 6 different people have told me its a bad choice now and not one has thought it could work heh.
Thanks again guys.
So despite all the above feedback which I greatly appreciate, the decision stands as warblade/artificer. He's agreed to let me take the item familiar feet and invest life energy. His stipulation to the bonus XP I accrue is that it goes into my craft reserve but can carry over levels. I thought this to be a fine deal.
So, knowing that I could optimize myself far greater than this combo allows, I`m still asking for help making the best out of this choice. I am further hindering it by dual wielding because I want to go deep into Tiger Claw. Here is how I`ve started filling out my feats. Any help from here or adjustments to this would be appreciated. Keep in mind, the DM also stated that any class bonus feats can be interchanged. Meaning if I hit a level with a warblade bonus feat I can take an Artificer bonus feat instead and vice versa
1.-University background +8sp +2/level
-Scribe Scroll
-Human bonus feat (two weapon fight)
-Level 1 feat (oversize two weapon fight)
-flaw feat ( Weapon focus - longsword)
-flaw feat
2.-Brew Potion
3.-Craft Wondrous Item
-Level 3 feat (item familiar)
4.-Art Bnus feat (legendary artisan)
5.-Craft Arms/armor
-War bonus feat (attune magic weapon)
6.-Level 6 feat (improved two weapon fight)
7.-Craft Wand
8.-Art Bonus feat
9.-Craft rod
-War bonus feat
-Level 9 feat
10.
11.
12. -Craft staff
-Art bonus feat (extra rings)
-Level 12 feat
13.-War bonus feat
14.-Forge Ring
15.-Level 15 feat
16.-Art bonus feat
17.-War bonus feat
18.-Level 18 feat
19 .
20.-Art bonus feat
Any thoughts and help appreciated.
Would fighter 2/warblade 2 on one side for heavy armor and 2 extra feats be worth losing some progression on maneuvers?
If you're concentrating on Tiger Claw and TWF, huh is a build which makes those options good "nonsensical and unflavorful"? I think TWF with 2 longswords is a bad idea. Why not just dual wield kukris and go Bloodclaw Adept?
1Well, it's not strictly superior to a warblade/artificer, a warblade artificer will simply be the artificer half pulling all the weight, and functionally wouldn't be very different from Artificer//commoner.
My dm was really pushing the artificer, but if factotum is the way to go he is not going to tell me no. Worst case it might delay our start a couple days while he refigures his story. He has however told me I am flat out not allowed to make "one of those every class under the sun" builds. I am allowed one class for multiclassing and can move into one prestige class when I qualify. Warblade is a must. Thats my own choice as I really like the class.
Now as I stated I am in now way good at optimizing heh...in case that wasnt blatantly obvious by now...but I cant understand how factotum gives me more than artificer. Cheap magic items, great infusions...I thought this would net me highrr returns. I dont doubt any of you, I guess I am just to dumb to see it.
So yeah, two wepon fighting is out, artificer is subject to change. I have one class choice available for multi and we start at level 4 as gestalt. Also one prc choice to make. By the way, do the two hander options really out damage the rediculous number of attacks tiger claw can pull off? I guess I should run the numbers when I gef home, at work on my cell right now. Seeing is believing though!
TWF isn't necessarily bad, nor is artificer.
Working within your restrictions and desires, I'd say half-elf (draconic is a great +1 LA template, BTW) with abilities 17/12/16/17/12/16. Make one side artificer (we'll get to that in a minute); make the other Rgr 2/Warblade 3/Revenant Blade 5/Warblade +10; note that only gets you 8th-level maneuvers (we'll get to THAT, too!
). Starting feats: 1) Bladebearer of the Valenar, 2) TWF*, 3) Weapon Focus (Valenar Double Scimitar), then work down the Power Attack/Shock Trooper tree.The reason everyone counseled against the artificer is that it's the Ultimate Boy Scout - prepared for anything. Use that, but make your melee stuff your primary combat tactic. Use the artificer to make magic items, scrolls & staves for the sorcerer will be quite handy. As will Gloves if the Balanced Hand (free Improved TWF) for you.
WotC has an interesting "cheat code" - especially for martial classes - in Unearthed Arcana. Ask your DM if he'll allow you a free Intermediate Bloodline instead of +2 LA. Those increase all class-level based effects... FOR ALL YOUR CLASSES. That means they'll get counted several times for determining your initiator level, as well as boosting your artificer stuff. Two bloodline levels would affect your initiator level like this: ([Ranger levels+2] + [Revenant Blade levels+2])/2 + Warblade levels+2. That should get get you to 9th-level maneuvers right on time.
If he lets you do the barbarian level, that actually means you could take 9th-level maneuvers EARLY. Plus, the barbarian benefit is huge: imagine a Raging Mongoose (swift action, remember) right before a charge that gives you 6 attacks.
One thing you MUST remember: TELL YOUR DM what effect the bloodline will have on your initiator level. Don't try to sneak it by him.
You can make artificier work but it will require a lot of pre palnning and knowledge of buffs, ill explain more when I get home since I'm afb but your gonna need some time and money and preplanning to really make it work (it still wwont be as good as draco's suggestion though)
The problem with artificer is, while absurdly power, to the point of being able to give God Wizards a run for their money for the strongest non-stupid variant class, requires a truly stupid amount of work. Spread sheets and calculators are basically mandatory to bring to the table. It's a huge headache, especially if you aren't used to it. It's also likely to involve having books thrown at you.
Well I think at this point scrapping two weapon fighting would be a good idea. It was mostly a flavor thing I had myself stuck on but my priority is definately damage. This should help open up some feat choices as 2 weapon fighting is just way to feat hungry for the returns. The raging mongoose and time stand still possibilities just had me a little dazzled.
Are you familiar with the monk's ability of "flury of misses?" Same deal. Plus, a two-handed weapon is almost always superior. TWF is only anything resembling decent with easy access to a lot of bonus damage. Especially since TWF is incompatible with most strikes, I must seriously recommend against it.
My dm was really pushing the artificer, but if factotum is the way to go he is not going to tell me no. Worst case it might delay our start a couple days while he refigures his story. He has however told me I am flat out not allowed to make "one of those every class under the sun" builds. I am allowed one class for multiclassing and can move into one prestige class when I qualify. Warblade is a must. Thats my own choice as I really like the class.
Seriously, explain to him the concept of "metagame construct." It's easy to make a class with a coherent and interesting backstory that uses "every class under the sun," especially with related classes. Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter are inherently very compatible. Just remember, if you're, say, a sorcadin, nobody in-game knows you're a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/AbJChamp 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. All they know is you are a very powerful holy warrior with great arcane powers.
Basically, limiting classes is more metagame and stupid than "every class under the sun" builds.
Now as I stated I am in now way good at optimizing heh...in case that wasnt blatantly obvious by now...but I cant understand how factotum gives me more than artificer. Cheap magic items, great infusions...I thought this would net me highrr returns. I dont doubt any of you, I guess I am just to dumb to see it.
Well, it would, if you knew what you were doing. Artificers are complicated. They also really shine in larger parties, but seriously, they're busted if you're good. It's just that there's more synergy with factotum//warblade, and, IMO, it's a more interesting and fun build.
I also suggest getting a Quickrazor and using Iaijutsu Focus along with Saphire Nightmare Blade.
You can do all of these features spontaneously during any fight. You can summon some obscure creature, buff it with some broken spells and augment its equipment with rediculously specialized enhancements all in the same fight. While this can be entertaining it can often feel like you're not doing anything other than looking up what works best for the situation.
Out of curiosity, Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage stacks with warblade maneuver's?
Yes.
Last question though. Im really liking the iaijutsu idea. Wondering if taking a1 level dip of factotum on the artificer side would be the best way to get iaijutsu focus? Also wondering if a 2 level fighter dip for a couple extra feats on the warblade side is worthwhile. Not sure if either of these trades is worth the lost progression?
Fighter 2/warblade 2 - factotum 1/artificer 3 is the proposed build vs warblade 4/artifice 4.
Fighter 2-Warblade 3/Artificer 5 (2 extra feats for one lost initiator level)
Warblade 5/Artificer 4-Factotum 1(just to get iaijutsu focus, along with the other added benefits)
Fighter 2-Warblade 3/Artificer 4-Factotum 1 (both options-this may or may not lose me a prestige class choice later on...he's really funny on the multiple class builds-not gonna argue with him over it, I like his games to much to voice many complaints and this is my first chance to play gestalt so ill go with it.)