Help with 2 Weapon Defense - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 felgoroth Aug 05, 2009 21:15:41	Human or Strongheart Halfling (before stat rolls) HAS TO BE CHAOTIC 1: Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler), Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Broad Blade Short Sword 2: Swashbuckler: Grace +1 3: Swashbuckler: Insightful Strike, Two Weapon Fighting 4: Warblade: Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude 5: Warblade: Uncanny Dodge 6: Chaos Monk (Dragon Magazine #335 page 88): Unarmed Strike (like Monks), AC Bonus (add Wis to AC), Improved Grapple (Monk Bonus Feat), Flailing Strike (1d4-1 extra attacks, all attacks take -2), 2 Weapon Defense 7: Battle Dancer (Dragon Magazine Compendium page 26): Unarmed Strike (again), AC Bonus (add Cha to AC) 8: Fighter: Great Fortitude 9: Fighter: Power Attack, Dodge 10: Fist of the Forest: AC Bonus (add Con to AC), Faster Movement, Feral Trance 1/day, Primal Living 11: Fighter: --- 12: Fighter: Mobility, Improved 2 Weapon Defense 13: Duelist: Canny Defense (add 1 point of Int mod per Duelist Level to AC) From here I'd probably just continue Duelist So while I find this build pretty nifty I was wondering if there was a way to get a decent AC and fighting abilities through a Swashbuckler without multiclassing a bunch (maybe 1 change and then eventually go into duelist or even invisible blade) and not going into the Tomb of Battle or Dragon Magazine. Improved Buckler Defense and Two Weapon Defense are noted but I'm not sure if I'd use them because of the PHB2 variant Swashbuckler ability called Shield of Blades which gives me a +2 shield bonus to AC (and increases at higher levels) if I attack with two finessable weapons.
#2 obtusehobbit Aug 05, 2009 21:38:04	One of my favorite builds for this would be Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17. Using Penetrating Strike ACF for rogue, and the Feat Daring Outlaw. It is simple, and with good Dex, Combat Expertise, Improved Buckler Defense, and the Dodge Bonus from Swashbuckler you can have a very strong AC. If you want a full progression I can make one.
#3 felgoroth Aug 06, 2009 16:23:40	that'd be cool. I just have 1 question, why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork. If you take 2 Weapon Defense you get a +1 to your AC when fighting with 2 weapons you don't take any Check Penaltys and if you fight in full defense you get a +2 and if you take all the 2 Weapon Defense feats you get a +3 AC and a +6 if you're in full defense. Also some DMs play it that if you take a -2 on attack Combat Expertise you get the higher of the bonuses with 2 weapon defense. It also seems a better choice to take the Shield of Blades variant because it gives you +2 AC at 5th level if you fight with 2 weapons and it gets up to +5 at 20th level.
#4 siranui Aug 06, 2009 16:28:53	"why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork." It's +1AC when it's non-magical. Then for a paltry sum you make it +1 and there's more AC... or +2, or whatever 'words' you fancy. Whereas 2 Weapon Defence is only ever +1AC.
#5 felgoroth Aug 06, 2009 16:49:36	"why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork." It's +1AC when it's non-magical. Then for a paltry sum you make it +1 and there's more AC... or +2, or whatever 'words' you fancy. Whereas 2 Weapon Defence is only ever +1AC. Unless you take greater 2 weapon defense in which case it's plus 6 if you're fighting defensively or if you DM's cool if you're taking a -2 on your attack rolls with Combat Expertise
#6 deoxhydroxinate Aug 06, 2009 16:49:39	"why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork." It's +1AC when it's non-magical. Then for a paltry sum you make it +1 and there's more AC... or +2, or whatever 'words' you fancy. Whereas 2 Weapon Defence is only ever +1AC. ^ This. Bucklers only get better as you progress and get monies, whereas your two weapon defense remains stagnant.
#7 siranui Aug 06, 2009 16:51:39	"Unless you take greater 2 weapon defense in which case it's plus 6 if you're fighting defensively or if you DM's cool if you're taking a -2 on your attack rolls with Combat Expertise" Which is yet another feat. And if you really want the extra AC that much, you can take a shield specialisation for it and also have an bonus from a magical buckler. And you make it from material which removes any armour check modifier.
#8 felgoroth Aug 06, 2009 16:54:25	Or you can be a monk and take sacred vow, vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence and vow of peace and have an AC of 40 at 5th or 6th level a 20ft. radius of Calm Emotions and if anyone does actually manage to hit you with your AC that high their weapon has to make a fortitude save or shatter.
#9 deoxhydroxinate Aug 06, 2009 16:55:41	The point is, two weapon defense makes you use precious feats for something that can be accomplished without the expenditure. As Siranui said, if you're really worried about it, pick up sheild spec. You're much better off.
#10 obtusehobbit Aug 06, 2009 16:55:42	Basically the big reason is as Sirani stated it is one feat that can give up to +6 (+5 buckler) to armor for the cost of -1 to hit with your off hand attack. The reason that that is so important is two-weapon fighting builds already suffer from lacking feats needing to invest 3 feats to get the full two-weapon fighting tree, plus most likely a couple more that add damage. For my proposed concept you already need. Combat Expertise, EWP (BB shortsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Defense, Daring Outlaw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon fighting. That is 7 feats out of a total number 8 feats a human or strongheart halfling gets at level 20 leaving no room for the entire 2 weapon defense tree. I would seriously consider losing a 2-4 levels of swashbuckler for 2-4 levels of fighter just to pick up the a few extra feats. As for a basic build I will post a couple variation of the idea later sometime tonight or tomorrow I will stick with at maximum 3 classes to keep it simple.
#11 felgoroth Aug 06, 2009 20:43:32	One of my favorite builds for this would be Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17. Using Penetrating Strike ACF for rogue, and the Feat Daring Outlaw. It is simple, and with good Dex, Combat Expertise, Improved Buckler Defense, and the Dodge Bonus from Swashbuckler you can have a very strong AC. If you want a full progression I can make one. Wouldn't it be beneficial to take 4 levels of rogue to get uncanny dodge?
#12 deoxhydroxinate Aug 06, 2009 20:44:22	Uncanny Dodge is overrated.
#13 felgoroth Aug 06, 2009 20:46:27	If you're playing a monk lol. No I just like having Uncanny Dodge because then my AC doesn't go down to 10 or 11 when I'm flatfooted
#14 obtusehobbit Aug 06, 2009 21:27:18	You are right there Felgoroth it is better to have it then not and since it only loses 2 hp it is definitely a good idea. Here is the most basic build for this type of character. Warning it is not necessarily optimal, but is simple and a strong option. Show Race: Strongheart Halfling 32 point buy Stats: Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Chr 10 (Points into dex) Build Progression lvl Class Feats 1) Rogue 1: Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting 2) Swashbuckler 1: (Weapon Finesse) 3) Swashbuckler 2: EWP: BB Shortsword 4) Swashbuckler 3: 5) Rogue 2: 6) Rogue 3: Deadly Defense ACF: Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) 7) Rogue 4: 8) Swashbuckler 4: 9) Swashbuckler 5: Daring Outlaw 10) Swashbuckler 6: 11) Swashbuckler 7: 12) Swashbuckler 8:Improved Buckler Defense 13) Swashbuckler 9: 14) Swashbuckler 10: 15) Swashbuckler 11:Improved Two-Fighting 16) Swashbuckler 12: 17) Swashbuckler 13: 18) Swashbuckler 14:Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. 19) Swashbuckler 15: 20) Swashbuckler 16: Build points: Strong AC with basic equipment of +5 buckler +5 Mithral Chainshirt and +6 Dex item only AC is 10 + 9 (Armor) + 6 (Dex) + 6 (Buckler) + 7 (Combat Expertise/BB Shortsword) + 4 (Dodge) = 42 AC (This can be higher with the right gear) Your Two hit base with +5 BB shortswords and +6 Dex Item is +19 (bab) + 9 (Finesse) +5 (Weapon) -5 (Combat Expertise) - 2 (Two-Weapon Fighting) = +25 (primary) and +24(Off hand) [Can be tweaked to go a bit higher] Sneak Attack of 10d6 with half damage when flanking target normally immune. So normal damage is 1d4(weapon)+1d6 (Deadly Defense) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Enhancement ) + Int against target not immune to sneak attack.
#15 felgoroth Aug 06, 2009 21:32:46	You are right there Felgoroth it is better to have it then not and since it only loses 2 hp it is definitely a good idea. Here is the most basic build for this type of character. Warning it is not necessarily optimal, but is simple and a strong option. Show Race: Strongheart Halfling 32 point buy Stats: Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Chr 10 (Points into dex) Build Progression lvl Class Feats 1) Rogue 1: Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting 2) Swashbuckler 1: (Weapon Finesse) 3) Swashbuckler 2: EWP: BB Shortsword 4) Swashbuckler 3: 5) Rogue 2: 6) Rogue 3: Deadly Defense ACF: Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) 7) Rogue 4: 8) Swashbuckler 4: 9) Swashbuckler 5: Daring Outlaw 10) Swashbuckler 6: 11) Swashbuckler 7: 12) Swashbuckler 8:Improved Buckler Defense 13) Swashbuckler 9: 14) Swashbuckler 10: 15) Swashbuckler 11:Improved Two-Fighting 16) Swashbuckler 12: 17) Swashbuckler 13: 18) Swashbuckler 14:Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. 19) Swashbuckler 15: 20) Swashbuckler 16: Build points: Strong AC with basic equipment of +5 buckler +5 Mithral Chainshirt and +6 Dex item only AC is 10 + 9 (Armor) + 6 (Dex) + 6 (Buckler) + 7 (Combat Expertise/BB Shortsword) + 4 (Dodge) = 42 AC (This can be higher with the right gear) Your Two hit base with +5 BB shortswords and +6 Dex Item is +19 (bab) + 9 (Finesse) +5 (Weapon) -5 (Combat Expertise) - 2 (Two-Weapon Fighting) = +25 (primary) and +24(Off hand) [Can be tweaked to go a bit higher] Sneak Attack of 10d6 with half damage when flanking target normally immune. So normal damage is 1d4(weapon)+1d6 (Deadly Defense) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Enhancement ) + Int against target not immune to sneak attack.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

felgoroth

Aug 05, 2009 21:15:41

Human or Strongheart Halfling (before stat rolls) HAS TO BE CHAOTIC
1: Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler), Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Broad Blade Short Sword
2: Swashbuckler: Grace +1
3: Swashbuckler: Insightful Strike, Two Weapon Fighting
4: Warblade: Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude
5: Warblade: Uncanny Dodge
6: Chaos Monk (Dragon Magazine #335 page 88): Unarmed Strike (like Monks), AC Bonus (add Wis to AC), Improved Grapple (Monk Bonus Feat), Flailing Strike (1d4-1 extra attacks, all attacks take -2), 2 Weapon Defense
7: Battle Dancer (Dragon Magazine Compendium page 26): Unarmed Strike (again), AC Bonus (add Cha to AC)
8: Fighter: Great Fortitude
9: Fighter: Power Attack, Dodge
10: Fist of the Forest: AC Bonus (add Con to AC), Faster Movement, Feral Trance 1/day, Primal Living
11: Fighter: ---
12: Fighter: Mobility, Improved 2 Weapon Defense
13: Duelist: Canny Defense (add 1 point of Int mod per Duelist Level to AC)
From here I'd probably just continue Duelist

So while I find this build pretty nifty I was wondering if there was a way to get a decent AC and fighting abilities through a Swashbuckler without multiclassing a bunch (maybe 1 change and then eventually go into duelist or even invisible blade) and not going into the Tomb of Battle or Dragon Magazine. Improved Buckler Defense and Two Weapon Defense are noted but I'm not sure if I'd use them because of the PHB2 variant Swashbuckler ability called Shield of Blades which gives me a +2 shield bonus to AC (and increases at higher levels) if I attack with two finessable weapons.

obtusehobbit

Aug 05, 2009 21:38:04

One of my favorite builds for this would be Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17. Using Penetrating Strike ACF for rogue, and the Feat Daring Outlaw. It is simple, and with good Dex, Combat Expertise, Improved Buckler Defense, and the Dodge Bonus from Swashbuckler you can have a very strong AC. If you want a full progression I can make one.

felgoroth

Aug 06, 2009 16:23:40

that'd be cool. I just have 1 question, why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork. If you take 2 Weapon Defense you get a +1 to your AC when fighting with 2 weapons you don't take any Check Penaltys and if you fight in full defense you get a +2 and if you take all the 2 Weapon Defense feats you get a +3 AC and a +6 if you're in full defense. Also some DMs play it that if you take a -2 on attack Combat Expertise you get the higher of the bonuses with 2 weapon defense. It also seems a better choice to take the Shield of Blades variant because it gives you +2 AC at 5th level if you fight with 2 weapons and it gets up to +5 at 20th level.

siranui

Aug 06, 2009 16:28:53

"why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork."

It's +1AC when it's non-magical. Then for a paltry sum you make it +1 and there's more AC... or +2, or whatever 'words' you fancy.

Whereas 2 Weapon Defence is only ever +1AC.

felgoroth

Aug 06, 2009 16:49:36

"why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork."

It's +1AC when it's non-magical. Then for a paltry sum you make it +1 and there's more AC... or +2, or whatever 'words' you fancy.

Whereas 2 Weapon Defence is only ever +1AC.

Unless you take greater 2 weapon defense in which case it's plus 6 if you're fighting defensively or if you DM's cool if you're taking a -2 on your attack rolls with Combat Expertise

deoxhydroxinate

Aug 06, 2009 16:49:39

"why does everyone think improved buckler defense is better than two weapon defense? A buckler only provides a +1 to your AC and it has a -1 Armor check penalty unless it's masterwork."

It's +1AC when it's non-magical. Then for a paltry sum you make it +1 and there's more AC... or +2, or whatever 'words' you fancy.

Whereas 2 Weapon Defence is only ever +1AC.

^ This.

Bucklers only get better as you progress and get monies, whereas your two weapon defense remains stagnant.

siranui

Aug 06, 2009 16:51:39

"Unless you take greater 2 weapon defense in which case it's plus 6 if you're fighting defensively or if you DM's cool if you're taking a -2 on your attack rolls with Combat Expertise"

Which is yet another feat. And if you really want the extra AC that much, you can take a shield specialisation for it and also have an bonus from a magical buckler. And you make it from material which removes any armour check modifier.

felgoroth

Aug 06, 2009 16:54:25

Or you can be a monk and take sacred vow, vow of poverty, vow of nonviolence and vow of peace and have an AC of 40 at 5th or 6th level a 20ft. radius of Calm Emotions and if anyone does actually manage to hit you with your AC that high their weapon has to make a fortitude save or shatter.

deoxhydroxinate

Aug 06, 2009 16:55:41

The point is, two weapon defense makes you use precious feats for something that can be accomplished without the expenditure.

As Siranui said, if you're really worried about it, pick up sheild spec. You're much better off.

#10

obtusehobbit

Aug 06, 2009 16:55:42

Basically the big reason is as Sirani stated it is one feat that can give up to +6 (+5 buckler) to armor for the cost of -1 to hit with your off hand attack. The reason that that is so important is two-weapon fighting builds already suffer from lacking feats needing to invest 3 feats to get the full two-weapon fighting tree, plus most likely a couple more that add damage. For my proposed concept you already need.

Combat Expertise, EWP (BB shortsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Defense, Daring Outlaw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon fighting.

That is 7 feats out of a total number 8 feats a human or strongheart halfling gets at level 20 leaving no room for the entire 2 weapon defense tree. I would seriously consider losing a 2-4 levels of swashbuckler for 2-4 levels of fighter just to pick up the a few extra feats. As for a basic build I will post a couple variation of the idea later sometime tonight or tomorrow I will stick with at maximum 3 classes to keep it simple.

#11

felgoroth

Aug 06, 2009 20:43:32

One of my favorite builds for this would be Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17. Using Penetrating Strike ACF for rogue, and the Feat Daring Outlaw. It is simple, and with good Dex, Combat Expertise, Improved Buckler Defense, and the Dodge Bonus from Swashbuckler you can have a very strong AC. If you want a full progression I can make one.

Wouldn't it be beneficial to take 4 levels of rogue to get uncanny dodge?

#12

deoxhydroxinate

Aug 06, 2009 20:44:22

Uncanny Dodge is overrated.

#13

felgoroth

Aug 06, 2009 20:46:27

If you're playing a monk lol. No I just like having Uncanny Dodge because then my AC doesn't go down to 10 or 11 when I'm flatfooted

#14

obtusehobbit

Aug 06, 2009 21:27:18

You are right there Felgoroth it is better to have it then not and since it only loses 2 hp it is definitely a good idea.

Here is the most basic build for this type of character. Warning it is not necessarily optimal, but is simple and a strong option.

Show

Race: Strongheart Halfling
32 point buy Stats: Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Chr 10 (Points into dex)
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Rogue 1: Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
2) Swashbuckler 1: (Weapon Finesse)
3) Swashbuckler 2: EWP: BB Shortsword
4) Swashbuckler 3:
5) Rogue 2:
6) Rogue 3: Deadly Defense
ACF: Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape)
7) Rogue 4:
8) Swashbuckler 4:
9) Swashbuckler 5: Daring Outlaw
10) Swashbuckler 6:
11) Swashbuckler 7:
12) Swashbuckler 8:Improved Buckler Defense
13) Swashbuckler 9:
14) Swashbuckler 10:
15) Swashbuckler 11:Improved Two-Fighting
16) Swashbuckler 12:
17) Swashbuckler 13:
18) Swashbuckler 14:Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
19) Swashbuckler 15:
20) Swashbuckler 16:

Build points:
Strong AC with basic equipment of +5 buckler +5 Mithral Chainshirt and +6 Dex item only AC is 10 + 9 (Armor) + 6 (Dex) + 6 (Buckler) + 7 (Combat Expertise/BB Shortsword) + 4 (Dodge) = 42 AC (This can be higher with the right gear)

Your Two hit base with +5 BB shortswords and +6 Dex Item is +19 (bab) + 9 (Finesse) +5 (Weapon) -5 (Combat Expertise) - 2 (Two-Weapon Fighting) = +25 (primary) and +24(Off hand) [Can be tweaked to go a bit higher]

Sneak Attack of 10d6 with half damage when flanking target normally immune. So normal damage is 1d4(weapon)+1d6 (Deadly Defense) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Enhancement ) + Int against target not immune to sneak attack.

#15

felgoroth

Aug 06, 2009 21:32:46

You are right there Felgoroth it is better to have it then not and since it only loses 2 hp it is definitely a good idea.

Here is the most basic build for this type of character. Warning it is not necessarily optimal, but is simple and a strong option.

Show
Race: Strongheart Halfling
32 point buy Stats: Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Chr 10 (Points into dex)
Build Progression
lvl Class Feats
1) Rogue 1: Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting
2) Swashbuckler 1: (Weapon Finesse)
3) Swashbuckler 2: EWP: BB Shortsword
4) Swashbuckler 3:
5) Rogue 2:
6) Rogue 3: Deadly Defense
ACF: Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape)
7) Rogue 4:
8) Swashbuckler 4:
9) Swashbuckler 5: Daring Outlaw
10) Swashbuckler 6:
11) Swashbuckler 7:
12) Swashbuckler 8:Improved Buckler Defense
13) Swashbuckler 9:
14) Swashbuckler 10:
15) Swashbuckler 11:Improved Two-Fighting
16) Swashbuckler 12:
17) Swashbuckler 13:
18) Swashbuckler 14:Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.
19) Swashbuckler 15:
20) Swashbuckler 16:

Build points:
Strong AC with basic equipment of +5 buckler +5 Mithral Chainshirt and +6 Dex item only AC is 10 + 9 (Armor) + 6 (Dex) + 6 (Buckler) + 7 (Combat Expertise/BB Shortsword) + 4 (Dodge) = 42 AC (This can be higher with the right gear)

Your Two hit base with +5 BB shortswords and +6 Dex Item is +19 (bab) + 9 (Finesse) +5 (Weapon) -5 (Combat Expertise) - 2 (Two-Weapon Fighting) = +25 (primary) and +24(Off hand) [Can be tweaked to go a bit higher]

Sneak Attack of 10d6 with half damage when flanking target normally immune. So normal damage is 1d4(weapon)+1d6 (Deadly Defense) + 10d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Enhancement ) + Int against target not immune to sneak attack.