Help with a halfing dancer thing - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Help with a halfing dancer thing

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
savita
Jun 17, 2012 8:31:02 So, in a 3.5 campaign, I have a level 3 halfling Rogue 2/Bard 1 who I have been honing to become a shadowdancer. Her feats right now are dodge and battledancer, and her ability scores are STR 11, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 13. At my next level I plan to boost charisma to help with bard spells, and then after that boost dexterity at every chance I get.

I'm considering taking levels in cloaked dancer before I get shadowdancer. It'll be a while before I'll have the feats needed for shadowdancer, minimum level 9, and I could start taking levels in cloaked dancer at level 7. Cloaked dancer would allow me to get more bard spells without taking levels in bard, and I really like the look of the enchanting dance. I would want to eventually level cloaked dancer up to 5.

I could level shadowdancer all the way up to 10, but I lose out on a lot of sneak attack damage from my rogue levels, which sudden strike doesn't really make up for, in my opinion. It also would not let me get cloaked dancer past level 3. I do want to take shadowdancer to a minimum of level 4, which gets me the most abilities from this class while still giving me a lot of levels I could use for both cloaked dancer and rogue.

I'm not sure if I should take another level in bard, which at cloaked dancer level 4 would allow me to cast level 2 bard spells like darkness, which would allow my shadowdancer abilities to take affect even when my DM says "no shadows"

And there's also rogue levels which I would like to continue with, simply for the sneak attack damage. I'm just not so good with numbers of things, and finding feats that would help me out with this build. Also magical items. Any help I can get with this build would really be appreciated. She is my first character and my DM has expressly stated he will be trying to actively kill us soon, so I would like a good chance at surviving.

(also a question. Both rogue and shadowdancer give evasion very early. Are they like uncanny dodge, which automatically gives me improved uncanny dodge when I get it from two classes? )

(Also is it a good idea to take the shrouded dance skill trick)
#2
StevenO
Jun 17, 2012 13:21:59 Technically, getting Evasion from two different classes does NOT automatically allow them to stack into Improved Evasion. I will note that some of the later PrCs that granted Evasion also had a line in there like "if this character already has the Evasion class feature he gains Improved Evasion instead," so they would effectively stack. These are after the DMG came out but I'd allow Evasion from a PrC to stack with another class based Evasion ability (but NOT two base class Evasions) to provide Improved Evasion; on a practical note classes that grant Evasion usually have good REF saves so stacking them means it is even less likely to miss a REF save and because I'd figure for that I think it is better that they only take half damage on a miss then full damage when the unthinkable happens.

Now there are many who don't like Shadowdancer and considering it prereqs I can empathize although to me the quality of the class all comes down to how the DM will play Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS). It shouldn't be played as a nearly infailable Invisibility but if the DM says it can't be used that often then it becomes worth much less.
#3
The_Fred
Jun 17, 2012 17:14:55 HiPS is potentially a killer ability. Now, with a high Hide check, you can basically make sneaks all the time. It's like feinting, but more likely to work and doesn't require a move action or a feat. Of course, your DM may decide he wants to come down on the ability, and I wouldn't blame him, but by the wording you should be fine pretty much anywhere except direct sunlight.

Cloaked Dancer is maybe not the most powerful class in the world, but is quite flavourful for what you're building, I think.
#4
savita
Jun 17, 2012 21:20:41 Essentially what I'm looking for is the ability to sneak attack often and generally stay hard to hit because I won't have many defenses. My DM is generally fair so far, so he should let me use HiPS when I should be able to, but that's part of the reason I was considering another level of Bard to unlock the darkness spell and therefore be able to use HiPS even in direct sunlight when necessary. He does like to play to our weaknesses. Cloaked Dancer I want to take mostly because of enchanting dance, though the spellcaster levels it gives me are very useful I think.

I won't have a chance to ask my dm about how he'll work with HiPS for a while since he's on vacation, but in the meantime I'm mostly trying to find feats and skill tricks and such that will help me with my sneak attacks. Is there another way to make them stronger other than taking levels in rogue? I'm also wondering how I can take advantage of dodge, mobility, and combat reflexes, the prereq feats for shadowdancer. They don't seem particularly useful, but is there maybe another feat or strategy that will let me take advantage of them?
#5
Tempest_Stormwind
Jun 17, 2012 22:07:42
I won't have a chance to ask my dm about how he'll work with HiPS for a while since he's on vacation, but in the meantime I'm mostly trying to find feats and skill tricks and such that will help me with my sneak attacks. Is there another way to make them stronger other than taking levels in rogue? I'm also wondering how I can take advantage of dodge, mobility, and combat reflexes, the prereq feats for shadowdancer. They don't seem particularly useful, but is there maybe another feat or strategy that will let me take advantage of them?

Combat Reflexes is bleeding awesome in many builds, but you have to be able to hit frequently to make good use of it.

If you're forced to get Mobility anyway, you may as well go for Elusive Target in Complete Warrior; it's the single best defensive feat for meleeists in the game, and the only reason it isn't more common is because it has shoddy prerequisites. Likewise, if you are willing to forgo the usual TWF route and want to play up the dancer route, Spring Attack might even work - you can even use Cloak Dance to get concealment and then still move and attack.

There's also a lot of good dancing options available in Races of Eberron, oddly enough: Kalashtar martial arts aren't always limited to kalashtar, and they're called "Dancing with the Shadows" for a reason. It's possible to keep up a constant chain of Combat Expertise going without any penalty on your attack rolls, for instance, and they favor movement.

Honestly, though, with sneak attack triggering on a flank? You really don't need to focus on stealth at all. Just move across from your buddy, which you can do with Tumble or Mobility, and you'll get the sneak attack off.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 savita Jun 17, 2012 8:31:02	So, in a 3.5 campaign, I have a level 3 halfling Rogue 2/Bard 1 who I have been honing to become a shadowdancer. Her feats right now are dodge and battledancer, and her ability scores are STR 11, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 13. At my next level I plan to boost charisma to help with bard spells, and then after that boost dexterity at every chance I get. I'm considering taking levels in cloaked dancer before I get shadowdancer. It'll be a while before I'll have the feats needed for shadowdancer, minimum level 9, and I could start taking levels in cloaked dancer at level 7. Cloaked dancer would allow me to get more bard spells without taking levels in bard, and I really like the look of the enchanting dance. I would want to eventually level cloaked dancer up to 5. I could level shadowdancer all the way up to 10, but I lose out on a lot of sneak attack damage from my rogue levels, which sudden strike doesn't really make up for, in my opinion. It also would not let me get cloaked dancer past level 3. I do want to take shadowdancer to a minimum of level 4, which gets me the most abilities from this class while still giving me a lot of levels I could use for both cloaked dancer and rogue. I'm not sure if I should take another level in bard, which at cloaked dancer level 4 would allow me to cast level 2 bard spells like darkness, which would allow my shadowdancer abilities to take affect even when my DM says "no shadows" And there's also rogue levels which I would like to continue with, simply for the sneak attack damage. I'm just not so good with numbers of things, and finding feats that would help me out with this build. Also magical items. Any help I can get with this build would really be appreciated. She is my first character and my DM has expressly stated he will be trying to actively kill us soon, so I would like a good chance at surviving. (also a question. Both rogue and shadowdancer give evasion very early. Are they like uncanny dodge, which automatically gives me improved uncanny dodge when I get it from two classes? ) (Also is it a good idea to take the shrouded dance skill trick)
#2 StevenO Jun 17, 2012 13:21:59	Technically, getting Evasion from two different classes does NOT automatically allow them to stack into Improved Evasion. I will note that some of the later PrCs that granted Evasion also had a line in there like "if this character already has the Evasion class feature he gains Improved Evasion instead," so they would effectively stack. These are after the DMG came out but I'd allow Evasion from a PrC to stack with another class based Evasion ability (but NOT two base class Evasions) to provide Improved Evasion; on a practical note classes that grant Evasion usually have good REF saves so stacking them means it is even less likely to miss a REF save and because I'd figure for that I think it is better that they only take half damage on a miss then full damage when the unthinkable happens. Now there are many who don't like Shadowdancer and considering it prereqs I can empathize although to me the quality of the class all comes down to how the DM will play Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS). It shouldn't be played as a nearly infailable Invisibility but if the DM says it can't be used that often then it becomes worth much less.
#3 The_Fred Jun 17, 2012 17:14:55	HiPS is potentially a killer ability. Now, with a high Hide check, you can basically make sneaks all the time. It's like feinting, but more likely to work and doesn't require a move action or a feat. Of course, your DM may decide he wants to come down on the ability, and I wouldn't blame him, but by the wording you should be fine pretty much anywhere except direct sunlight. Cloaked Dancer is maybe not the most powerful class in the world, but is quite flavourful for what you're building, I think.
#4 savita Jun 17, 2012 21:20:41	Essentially what I'm looking for is the ability to sneak attack often and generally stay hard to hit because I won't have many defenses. My DM is generally fair so far, so he should let me use HiPS when I should be able to, but that's part of the reason I was considering another level of Bard to unlock the darkness spell and therefore be able to use HiPS even in direct sunlight when necessary. He does like to play to our weaknesses. Cloaked Dancer I want to take mostly because of enchanting dance, though the spellcaster levels it gives me are very useful I think. I won't have a chance to ask my dm about how he'll work with HiPS for a while since he's on vacation, but in the meantime I'm mostly trying to find feats and skill tricks and such that will help me with my sneak attacks. Is there another way to make them stronger other than taking levels in rogue? I'm also wondering how I can take advantage of dodge, mobility, and combat reflexes, the prereq feats for shadowdancer. They don't seem particularly useful, but is there maybe another feat or strategy that will let me take advantage of them?
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Jun 17, 2012 22:07:42	I won't have a chance to ask my dm about how he'll work with HiPS for a while since he's on vacation, but in the meantime I'm mostly trying to find feats and skill tricks and such that will help me with my sneak attacks. Is there another way to make them stronger other than taking levels in rogue? I'm also wondering how I can take advantage of dodge, mobility, and combat reflexes, the prereq feats for shadowdancer. They don't seem particularly useful, but is there maybe another feat or strategy that will let me take advantage of them? Combat Reflexes is bleeding awesome in many builds, but you have to be able to hit frequently to make good use of it. If you're forced to get Mobility anyway, you may as well go for Elusive Target in Complete Warrior; it's the single best defensive feat for meleeists in the game, and the only reason it isn't more common is because it has shoddy prerequisites. Likewise, if you are willing to forgo the usual TWF route and want to play up the dancer route, Spring Attack might even work - you can even use Cloak Dance to get concealment and then still move and attack. There's also a lot of good dancing options available in Races of Eberron, oddly enough: Kalashtar martial arts aren't always limited to kalashtar, and they're called "Dancing with the Shadows" for a reason. It's possible to keep up a constant chain of Combat Expertise going without any penalty on your attack rolls, for instance, and they favor movement. Honestly, though, with sneak attack triggering on a flank? You really don't need to focus on stealth at all. Just move across from your buddy, which you can do with Tumble or Mobility, and you'll get the sneak attack off.