Hey all,
I've got some time before my crew starts are next campaign (we're finishing up one now), and we're going into a pretty interesting revamp of a homebrew world. We're starting with 3rd level characters, but I'd like to plan at least up to 10 (go crazy if you want, but I'd like to see lvl progression if you have the patience to spell it out) to have an idea on how I'm going to play him. Based on the world, there's a lot of limitations, but also a lot of room for negotiating. I've chosen to play a halfling (and I _am_ going to ask to sub/race Strongheart halfling, but no guarantees).
Beyond that, I'm really just interested in trying out a rogueish type character as I'm usually a tank or a cleric, and I'm looking to expand my repetoire. I'm looking to build a really good flavour character, as opposed to a super optomized, min/max one man army type.
Here's the TL:DNR:
- Homebrew Campaign, primarly 3.5 core :: Other books are allowed, but need to avoid excessive multiclassing
- Low magic - the lands we hail from frown upon it. However, once we get higher levels, we will be facing powerful sorcerers and undead. For now, mostly ogres and dungeons.
- Magic items will be found - no control over what they are. Magic items/weapons/armors can almost never be bought.
- Looking to play something kind of Spy/Ninja ish - I'd like to keep a moderate amount of skills in things like Open Locks and other Theivey things, but I want him to be primarly a stealth sneak attacker - leaping out of shadows and stabbing people or throwing knives - or both
- I'm pretty set on the idea of Two Weapon Fighting, preferably with something I can throw and use in melee
- Flavour of the world is Celtic/Scottish/Irish Medievel - Halflings are 'Fey' that live in the forests, and have recently taken up residence near a forest God.
- Alignment is non-evil
- Rolls are 17, 15, 13, 12, 12, 8
**EDIT**
So I screwed up on the rolls. I was trying to remember what I rolled the night prior - just checked the paper I had written it down on. Rolls are much better than I remembered: 13, 17, 15, 15, 13, 8 (our group rerolls anything _below_ 9 Get a nine, however, and your stuck with it- rerolled to a 13)
I'm also looking for experienced hints and tips about playing a rogue, so feel free to throw in your two cents about playing that style of character.
The Longer story for those that are interested:
Campaign Background
Show
The world bears a similar resemblance to Britain - the language, the smells, the tribes and castles all bear a distinct Celtish/Socttish Flavor. There are no elves, and the Dwarves have shut themselves off from the world. Halflings live in secret in the woods - wild and tattoo'ed, and as dangerous as they are small. Evil lurks in the shadows, but the men and women of the land are brave and built from and for battle. The Church is puritannical and powerful and is driving the people away from arcane or natural magics. The general populace has grown distrustful of anything that seems magical, and outright violent towards people that are.
The previous campaign had a set of adventurers from different walks of life that had come together to be destined 'Guardians of the land' - A halfling ranger, a human druid (lived outside civilization), a scout and a fighter from the Royal Army and a Bard, to sing our tales. Through out the course of that adventure, we held a huge number of nation-threatening evils at bay: Plots to raise demons by old litch/witches, Demon Knights, a nation run by evil Wizards to the south, a small uprising from one of the nations tribes - all while avoiding the Clerics of Pelor hunting down 'dirty fey and magical creatures' that most of the nation had been convinced were 'evil'. The Druid and the halfling had to keep their identities pretty low-profile, neither of them entering cities unless in disguise.
They grew a little arrogant, ****ure perhaps - and decided to take on an invasion of orcs and ogres pretty much single handedly, and while they decimated hundreds of enemies, all were brought low in a desperate battle, encircled by raging ogres. Their deaths had far reaching consequences.
15 years in the future, the Southron Wizard Nation's Army has come North, and with the help of one of the tribes (the one that tried to rise up earlier), overthrew the King and sent him and those loyal to him into the mountains, where they've nomadically been hiding, avoiding capture from their enemies and the clubs of the giants and ogres that roam the icy northern islands and mountains. The remaining litch/witch that had escaped the prior adventurers hands, has been driven from her home, which has become the center of power for the Wizards. The surrounding bogs is now teeming with their necromancy.
One of the King's Soldier PC's had been cursed by the surviving litch/witch for a time, and the link created from that produced a child from their magical union (unwilling on his part). He was supposed to be the bastion of good in the land - she was at the heart of evil. Polar forces in the land. That child was stolen early on by greater powers in the land and now, at 15 is heading out into the world, perhaps to make things right, or perhaps not. The purity of his father and the corruption of his mother will remain a dualling force within this boy-sorcerer.
At his side is one of the halflings he was raised with - a shadow in the woods, quick with a knife as with a jest: Asdair Hardie. That's me.
You have a variety of options for being roguish. The rogue class, of course, is one. Beguiler (Player's Handbook II) works in casting. Factotum (Dungeonscape) is a highly versatile class. The trap expert alternative class feature (Dungeonscape) for ranger gives you the trapfinding ability instead of the track feat and adds disable device as a class skill.
Two-weapon fighting is a problematic style. Hitting with both weapons when two-weapon fighting deals about the same amount of damage as hitting with one weapon when wielding it in two hands. Despite having no inherent benefit, two weapon fighting penalizes your attack roll, can't be combined with movement beyong a 5-foot step, and consumes feats.
Eventually, a rogue can make good use of two-weapon fighting, because it gives him extra opportunities to deal sneak attack damage. You'll be starting right at the point when it becomes feasible. Third level is the earliest you can take weapon finesse, since it requires base attack bonus +1. You've just gotten +2d6 sneak attack, which is about as much as it takes to offset the lost damage from favoring dexterity over strength and the -2 penalty you take on attack rolls.
I probably should have noted that I want to avoid casting as much as possible. Before anyone says "UR SO STUPID" - it's not that I have anything against casting, I'm just looking for a low/no-magic kind of character. I've kind of burned out on the whole magic thing by playing one too many Clerics in the past year, and I've been really enjoying a Dwarven Defender character I was playing (That just got 20/20/hit killed last weekend, *mourn*). I'm enjoying the simplicity of the weapons based characters - so though their great suggestions, I'm probably going to avoid Beguiler and Factotum. (Also, this is just me, I find the Factotum class a little overwhelming.)
The Ranger sub is interesting - my only concern might be damage output. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but given the halflings size/lower strength, doesn't the rogue make more sense as far as overall damage output in the long run with the sneak attack increases?
I'm not sure if you're for/against TWF - but if you've got an alternate suggestion for weaponry/feats, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Interesting!
I probably should have noted that I want to avoid casting as much as possible. Before anyone says "UR SO STUPID" - it's not that I have anything against casting, I'm just looking for a low/no-magic kind of character. I've kind of burned out on the whole magic thing by playing one too many Clerics in the past year, and I've been really enjoying a Dwarven Defender character I was playing (That just got 20/20/hit killed last weekend, *mourn*). I'm enjoying the simplicity of the weapons based characters - so though their great suggestions, I'm probably going to avoid Beguiler and Factotum. (Also, this is just me, I find the Factotum class a little overwhelming.)
This is helpful; one of the things I was going to suggest was the Shadowbane Stalker PrC from Complete Adventurer; it combines Rogue/Cleric.
The Ranger sub is interesting - my only concern might be damage output. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but given the halflings size/lower strength, doesn't the rogue make more sense as far as overall damage output in the long run with the sneak attack increases?
I'm not sure if you're for/against TWF - but if you've got an alternate suggestion for weaponry/feats, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Basically, TWF is ONLY good if you're adding Sneak Attack; otherwise you hit less often with approximately the same base damage as a 2H weapon and therefore do less damage.
The best way to do a TWF rogue is to maximize your BAB; the best way to do that is going Rogue3/Swashbuckler (from Complete Warrior) 2 (at least). This qualifies you for the Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel) feat, which adds both class levels together to determine SA dice. Two of your best options (whether you use Swashbuckler or not) are going to be Invisible Blade (Complete Warrior) or Whisperknife (the flavor of which seems to fit your character to a T) from Races of the Wild.
dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/09/swift-...
The best way to do a TWF rogue is to maximize your BAB; the best way to do that is going Rogue3/Swashbuckler (from Complete Warrior) 2 (at least). This qualifies you for the Daring Outlaw (Complete Scoundrel) feat, which adds both class levels together to determine SA dice. Two of your best options (whether you use Swashbuckler or not) are going to be Invisible Blade (Complete Warrior) or Whisperknife (the flavor of which seems to fit your character to a T) from Races of the Wild.
Wouldn't a trapfinding Swift Hunter build work perfectly here? dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/09/swift-...
I'm at work, so I can't look to heavily into these unti later tonight, but all three of those sound like excellent forays into what I'm looking to do. I really like the sounds of the Invisble Blade or Whisperknife....
Wouldn't a trapfinding Swift Hunter build work perfectly here? dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/09/swift-...
Technically, you don't even need the variant; Scout gets Trapfinding at level 1 or 2. Oddly, the Scout doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill.
Wouldn't a trapfinding Swift Hunter build work perfectly here? dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/09/swift-...
Technically, you don't even need the variant; Scout gets Trapfinding at level 1 or 2. Oddly, the Scout doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill.
Yes it does, check the errata. I meant "trapfinding" as in "use Scout for trapfinding, Search, and Disable Device", sorry.
Oddly, the Scout doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill.
Yes it does, check the errata.
I keep getting told to "check the errata", but have no idea where to find it for 3.X. All I can find is errata for WoW 4e.
The errata is here.
The errata is here.
Thanks, Maat!
I'm pretty torn now - there are two really great options you guys have put forth that have caught my eye.
I really love the lead towards the Whisperknife PrC - It totally fits the flavor of the character and the campaign. I'm not sure if I'd do Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 3/Whisperknife ++ or Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Whisperknife ++ mainly because of Uncanny Dodge and an extra set of sneak dice before the Whisperknife spreads that bonus out over a few more levels.
The Swift Hunter is also incredibly tempting. At first glance, I thought: "My DM would never go for this." But as I delved in deeper, I realized he'd probably give it a fair shot if I built him out, and showed him what this guy could do. My only hesitation is: I have no idea where to start or what direction to build in! I've started a little spreadsheet map to compare them - so if you guys have a quick suggestion on how to put the scout/ranger classes together for a 10 build, I'd be much obliged. What feats would you reccommend for this character in this class?
The Swift Hunter is also incredibly tempting. At first glance, I thought: "My DM would never go for this." But as I delved in deeper, I realized he'd probably give it a fair shot if I built him out, and showed him what this guy could do. My only hesitation is: I have no idea where to start or what direction to build in! I've started a little spreadsheet map to compare them - so if you guys have a quick suggestion on how to put the scout/ranger classes together for a 10 build, I'd be much obliged. What feats would you reccommend for this character in this class?
Scout 4 / Ranger 6, as I recall, is the classic entry point for Swift Hunter. Focus on more Ranger as you go up rather than more Scout, since the higher base attack and access to ranger spells outdoes what the scout can provide once Swift Hunter's in the picture. You have to decide if this guy's TWFing or using ranged attacks (or both, with thrown weapons) before we can suggest feats; if you settle on Swift Hunter, you'll have to re-evaluate that decision over the other build.
But I'm open to looking at other combat styles if you've got something in mind for a Halfling Swift Hunter... I could do an archery build, I guess...
Would you just alternate Ranger/Scout until you'd done four levels of Scout? i.e. Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Ranger
I'm still thinking going towards TWF - but starting as ranged with daggers (or other throwing/melee weapons that I might be able to use). I like the idea of a knife fighter - throwing, stabbing, slashing, dodging etc. I think that's part of the allure of the Rogue 3(or 4)/Swashbuckler 3/Whisperknife ++ - the free weapon finesse class feature, along with the focus on dagger oriented combat.
But I'm open to looking at other combat styles if you've got something in mind for a Halfling Swift Hunter... I could do an archery build, I guess...
Would you just alternate Ranger/Scout until you'd done four levels of Scout? i.e. Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Scout/Ranger/Ranger
The concern with TWFing in this route is that you lose a LOT of chances to throw since you need to be able to move 10+ feet and still full attack, which isn't all that easy unless you dip Cleric or Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion. Archery is easier (Greater Manyshot, boom), but you can still work with daggers if you want (Go with TWF combat style, learn Quick Draw and Weapon Finesse, and spend your feats on the archery ones which work with thrown weapons). It's an uphill battle though, since you'll be struggling for movement.
The class structure you'd want either way is probably Scout 1 / Ranger 2 / Scout 2-4 / Ranger 3-6. In both cases you drop your animal companion for Distracting Shot (PHB2). Sample feat structures for strongheart halflings are:
Throw/Melee Hybrid:
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Track (Ranger bonus)
3: TWF (Ranger style), Weapon Finesse
5: Quick Draw (Scout bonus)
6: Swift Hunter
9: [Open feat, suggesting Travel Devotion or Improved Skirmish]
10: Improved TWF (Ranger style)
[This style is hard to work with; you try to move as far as possible without eating up a move action (probably using travel devotion) and then unload with TWF-style attacks in melee or at range. You can get up to five attacks this way, but it's hard to do without Travel Devotion, which is 1/day without a cleric dip.)
Archery version: NOTE: DELAY SCOUT 4 TO 10th; you want Ranger 6 to coincide with the level you get another feat.
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Track (Ranger bonus)
3: Rapid Shot (Ranger style), [Open feat, suggesting Travel Devotion or Improved Skirmish (more useful in this build)]
6: Swift Hunter
9: Manyshot (Ranger style), Greater Manyshot
10: Improved Initiative (Scout bonus)
[With this version you can just move your speed (20') and trigger Skirmish +5d6/+4, and you can still use Greater Manyshot to fire off all three arrows you'd normally get, at separate targets, and each gets that bonus damage.) Day in, day out.]
Those are just sample setups.
My only concern with the Archery build you have there is that I'm not sure our multi-classing rules allow for the Scout 4 in 10th delay. I haven't multiclassed much, but I'm trying to recall what was said about it. I'm pretty sure there was some rule about not dipping back into a class if there was more than two levels of the other class in between. So at most, I can got 2 levels of ranger before taking a scout again. If I go three - no dice. I've got an email into my DM about it, but he's typically slow on the email responses.
So it looks like the only way to keep somekind of equivalency damage output for Sneak Attacks or Skirmish against undead is through specialized weaponry. I guess my best hope is that we end up with a cleric or a paladin when we end up fighting the undead... unless I missed something...which I probably did...
Thanks guys! I really appreciate all of your input on this!
I got clarification - it's a 10% + XP hit for classing back with more than two levels inbetween (unless it's a favored class - we'd have to houserule Scout), so that new build works fantastic. I just reread the feat - and you're right. The swift hunter is clearly the superior build - better saves (WILL is the same), more skill points (131 vs 125 over 10 levels), and overall looks like the better attack bonus.
I'm guessing I'd have to play this guy almost completely ranged, based on the weapons, feats and the need to move to get the skirmish damage... which isn't a problem. It's a little less 'up close and personal knife in the belly' than I was originally thinking, but I'm getting on board with the 'rooftop/from the bushes sniper' that this guy is looking like.
Thank you so much for your input.
Tempest, you are AH-mazing.
Careful, feeding my ego is nearly as dangerous as feeding an AoO tank.
I got clarification - it's a 10% + XP hit for classing back with more than two levels inbetween (unless it's a favored class - we'd have to houserule Scout), so that new build works fantastic. I just reread the feat - and you're right. The swift hunter is clearly the superior build - better saves (WILL is the same), more skill points (131 vs 125 over 10 levels), and overall looks like the better attack bonus.
It's a weird houserule, but I don't imagine there'll be any problems. It works with that 1/2/1/2/1/2/1/10 timing even if you don't get the favored class switched.
I'm guessing I'd have to play this guy almost completely ranged, based on the weapons, feats and the need to move to get the skirmish damage... which isn't a problem. It's a little less 'up close and personal knife in the belly' than I was originally thinking, but I'm getting on board with the 'rooftop/from the bushes sniper' that this guy is looking like.
You are actually going to have to be reasonably up-close and personal: Skirmish has the same range limit as Sneak Attack. The main reason why I support the bow use is because of Greater Manyshot making it far easier to shoot-and-scoot with full Skirmish; there's no similar ability for thrown weapons. (Not even with Master Thrower.)
However, I just remembered elvencraft bows (Races of the Wild). They're simultaneously ranged and melee weapons. (You essentially switch between bow and quarterstaff (longbow) or club (shortbow) whenever you want.) I'm not sure how you can fit in Finesse there, but the club is a finessable weapon; if you're in a position where shooting is too dangerous (i.e. Wind Wall, or vs huge reach AoO targets), you can still Tumble next to a target with skirmish and engage in a melee full attack.
He's pretty slick at 3. But once he takes the Swift Hunter feat, this guy just explodes. By 8 he's a total menace. That's AWESOME.
Someone suggested an Animal Companion sub somewhere - I like the sound of distracting attack. are there better ones?
I got clarification - it's a 10% + XP hit for classing back with more than two levels inbetween (unless it's a favored class - we'd have to houserule Scout), so that new build works fantastic. I just reread the feat - and you're right. The swift hunter is clearly the superior build - better saves (WILL is the same), more skill points (131 vs 125 over 10 levels), and overall looks like the better attack bonus.
This sounds a lot like the STANDARD penalty for multiclassing or else it is all mixed up. The default is that if you're non-favored classes get more then one level appart you take a 10% XP hit. The way I'm seeing that rule interpreted it appears to actually encourage more class dipping.
I could swap Improved Initiative for Weapon Finesse. By 10, if I put both ability score upgrades into dex, (becomes 21, so +6), on top of the Battle Fort bonus, my initiative bonus is +7. +11 would be nice, but for the ability to basically sync up my attack bonuses between melee/ranged... a sacrifice I could make.
I'm AFB now, but Improved Init is there as a scout bonus feat and I don't know if Weapon Finesse is on that list or not. If it isn't, slot it in at 3rd; you don't need Improved Skirmish (it really helps) or Travel Devotion (kind of cheesy but REALLY helps) as much and have a feat due at 12th anyway. Normally I'd use the 12th level feat on Improved Precise Shot or the other one of the open feat suggestions though.
Someone suggested an Animal Companion sub somewhere - I like the sound of distracting attack. are there better ones?
The list suggests that Distracting Attack is actually quite rare; most Animal Companion substitutions just give you a specialty companion rather than replacing it. The only one that looks like it might compete is the Shooting Star ranger (essentially a ranger of Mystra in Forgotten Realms), which trades out some of the ranger's less-useful tough-guy features for improved spellcasting.
It's actually quite good, at least at 3rd (swap Endurance for essentially Sending 1/day) and 4th (bonus spell slots and improved caster level instead of animal companion). The reason you'd really want this is the Sword of the Arcane Order feat in the same book - it lets you fill your slots with wizard spells, which gives you killer options. However, both the feat and the substitution levels assume you're a member of the Order of the Shooting Star, basically Mystra's rangers, and that may not be appropriate for your game nor for your concept.
The only alternative I'd consider, Distracting Attack, is well worth it for you, especially if there's a rogue or similar flank-happy character (i.e. high-Int Warblade 7 using Tactics of the Wolf, or a marshal using Master of Tactics) in the party as well. This way, you can flank in melee (via an elvencraft shortbow) or at range (via Distracting Attack, which is especially mean with Greater Manyshot), and basically always provide flanking bonuses no matter where you are. It also fits the tricky harrier feel that most halfling warriors seem to like.
This sounds a lot like the STANDARD penalty for multiclassing or else it is all mixed up. The default is that if you're non-favored classes get more then one level appart you take a 10% XP hit. The way I'm seeing that rule interpreted it appears to actually encourage more class dipping.
...That's a good eye. I didn't notice that. (Although it's a 20% hit, not a 10% one.) And it does encourage dipping; the only reason I didn't suggest the usual Swift Hunter dip (a one-level dip in Cleric or Cloistered Cleric, exchanging the Travel domain for Travel Devotion and having the Turn Undead attempts to power it) falls down to thematic reasons - I was trying to make the swift hunter have the same low-magic feel as the whisperknife so the two weren't too disparate.
ShowThis sounds a lot like the STANDARD penalty for multiclassing or else it is all mixed up. The default is that if you're non-favored classes get more then one level appart you take a 10% XP hit. The way I'm seeing that rule interpreted it appears to actually encourage more class dipping.
Swift hunter it is! I think this is goint to be amazing. You guys are the best. I love the 3.5 community.
QQ: Is there an advantage/disadvantage between longbows/shortbows for the halflings? As a ranger, I think I can use the longbow, and it does a little more damage...?
Well, I've run the basic premise by my DM, and he's stoked about the Archery build. Thinks it plays better into the character flavour better (the halflings live in the forests, ergo it seem weird that a forest dweller would be a knife expert - bows it is!).
Swift hunter it is! I think this is goint to be amazing. You guys are the best. I love the 3.5 community.
QQ: Is there an advantage/disadvantage between longbows/shortbows for the halflings? As a ranger, I think I can use the longbow, and it does a little more damage...?
Glad to hear it! So often we have people come here for help, leaving happy... and then not telling us how it went. Thanks for not being that guy.
If you're proficient with both you'll almost always want the longbow. The shortbow is more easily hidden and can be used from horseback (I forget offhand if longbows either can't be used mounted or come at a penalty), but these are situational at best. The only people who use shortbows are those who can't use longbows.
That said, since most of your damage comes from Skirmish and you'll be at close range anyway, there won't be much of a difference, so you can pick for style. Shortbow will work just fine here; it averages only 1 point of damage less than the longbow and the longbow's other advantage (range) is useless to you.
If you're proficient with both you'll almost always want the longbow. The shortbow is more easily hidden and can be used from horseback (I forget offhand if longbows either can't be used mounted or come at a penalty)...
I don't remember either, but I know the Daikyu (A&E Guide, IIRC) gets around that... with a feat.
Well, I've run the basic premise by my DM, and he's stoked about the Archery build. Thinks it plays better into the character flavour better (the halflings live in the forests, ergo it seem weird that a forest dweller would be a knife expert - bows it is!).
Swift hunter it is! I think this is goint to be amazing. You guys are the best. I love the 3.5 community.
QQ: Is there an advantage/disadvantage between longbows/shortbows for the halflings? As a ranger, I think I can use the longbow, and it does a little more damage...?
When you have the option you use the longbow or more precisely a composite longbow. I don't believe a longbow can be used when mounted but a composite longbow CAN be used while mounted which will make a difference. As a halfling your longbows only do as much damage as a human's shortbow which is something to remember.
Now this may not relate so much to some of the rest of the thread but Halfling Archers can really be nice because it is possible to get FULL ATTACKS off while on a moving mount. Being a small race a halfling can ride a medium sized creature (riding dog) which should be able to go anywhere the bigger folk can go. The big drawback to mounted archery is that Skirmish damage does NOT apply (it is, or at least was, in the errata) when using the mount's movement; this was done to prevent "broken" Full Attacks where they all gain Skirmish. As a DM I'd let a Scout get skirmish damage on their first attack anytime they move even when mounted but that is not official. Oh, the other nice thing about using a mount is you can at least keep up if not move faster then the bigger folk.
There are also a couple of classes around that could really help a mounted halfling be a terror on the battlefield.
everything is in. I put together a spreadsheet to show him the level progressions, what happens at each of the levels from 3-10, feats with references (web for the books we didn't have), and everything is in. Strongheart, Swift Hunter, feats, the whole shebang. And because of some favours I've done him, I'm getting some magical longbow.
We probably won't deal with mounted combat. Something about the way we play the game, it's always better to not involve animals... I think most of us just find it a hassle to RP, and often doesn't fit the characters we're playing. *shrug* so if that's the only real difference, not a big deal.
This guy is ready to rock!
Just wanted to point out that, if you're using an elvencraft bow with Weapon Finesse, there is a major difference between a longbow and shortbow; a club is usable with Finesse, while a quarterstaff is not.
Yeah, turns out the bow he gave me isn't an elvencraft. So, I went with the suggestions for the feats. I probably won't end up in any front line - we have a pretty meaty barbarian, a cleric type and a fighter type. Me and the sorcerer'll be staying out of the melee.
Just wanted to point out that, if you're using an elvencraft bow with Weapon Finesse, there is a major difference between a longbow and shortbow; a club is usable with Finesse, while a quarterstaff is not.
Yeah, turns out the bow he gave me isn't an elvencraft. So, I went with the suggestions for the feats. I probably won't end up in any front line - we have a pretty meaty barbarian, a cleric type and a fighter type. Me and the sorcerer'll be staying out of the melee.
I made a mistake on those feats - to qualify for Improved Skirmish, switch it with Improved Initiative. (The "open feat" was going to be Weapon Finesse if you had an elvencraft bow, but you don't, so Improved Init is a good choice.)
I'd love to hear your play experience with this, by the way. Too often we offer help and don't hear anything back. It's good to know if we help people have fun.
So it's been almost a year since I've posted in here, and I want to express my extreme gratitude for all of the help. The Swift Hunter was the absolute best possible take for my character, and has been absolutely essential to 'The new guardians' in our game.
So far, he's been my favorite character to play ever. Decent damage, practically invisible, and nearly impossible to keep out of locked things. And occasionally there's a big hit that just drops the table.
The character's name ended up being 'Fillean Hardie'. He and the sorcerer have been as thick as theives, escorted by a motley assortment of rebels as they attempt to cross the occupied lands to retrieve objects of power for the king, who passed on his crown to his last surviving child, a daughter.
Fillean has been as much of a asset in terms of skills (unlocking doors, finding traps, tracking foes, leading the team through mountains) as he has been at decimating the undead. In our last game, we came up against some kind of shadow beast, and I (accidentally) ganked the big bad with one shot all I was trying to do was hit him to stop from casting. The bow I have has a 1/day smite ability that grants me a +5 to my attack and then doubles my damage, including skirmish damage, and my +4 vs Undead. The DM was a little upset when that happened - even though I made the 50% miss chance because I was firing into magical darkness. It was pretty epic. "Mighty Little Bow" is what someone said afterwards.
He *did* almost bite it in the game prior to that though. We had some sort of mega zombie lord come out of the woodwork behind us in a tomb, and Fillean heroically got in the way to avoid it attacking the sorcerer - and got the upjumped version of Mummyrot that requires the cleric to make a healing check to 'remove curse' before he could 'remove disease'. And the cleric failed, twice. Barely survived that one.
The sorcerer has also remarked that he considers the halfling his familiar. We looked it up to see if it was possible to make a halfling a familiar, but it's not.
I kept Weapon Finesse in there - I had a feeling I might need it, and have. I've been picking up magical daggers all over the place (+1 CON Poisoning, +1 Wounding), and it comes in handy when I've been caught in melee. I didn't really need Improved Init - I'm already at a +7 for init with all the bonuses my guy's been getting.
We just hit level 9 - So I've just picked up Manyshot and Greater Manyshot, as was the plan in here. If I've got this right:
Greater Manyshot Attack: Move my speed (30 ft), Fire two arrows (BAB is +8) and apply my skirmish damage to both arrows, seperate attack rolls.
Rapidshot Attack: Fire Three Arrows, or Throw three daggers(?)
DM has allowed me to do 2 ranger levels and 1 scout alternating, so a Scout level comes next, where I get the bonus feat. Now that I know I can move and fire multiple arrows with skirmish attached to all of them, the improved skirmish feat looks good for that. If I've got that all right. The only other feat I'm considering is travel devotion, but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I'm focusing more on Manyshot.
I figure I'm going to stick with that pattern until I hit Scout 5. The 20 plan would be Ranger 15/Scout 5. At this point the spreadsheet I built only goes to lvl 10, so I'm totally open to any suggestions for Prestige classes.
Again, thank you all so much for the input.
Hey ho!
So it's been almost a year since I've posted in here, and I want to express my extreme gratitude for all of the help. The Swift Hunter was the absolute best possible take for my character, and has been absolutely essential to 'The new guardians' in our game.
So far, he's been my favorite character to play ever. Decent damage, practically invisible, and nearly impossible to keep out of locked things. And occasionally there's a big hit that just drops the table.
Glad to hear it! It's rare that we hear back from anyone who's asked for help, but it's always nice when that happens.
The sorcerer has also remarked that he considers the halfling his familiar. We looked it up to see if it was possible to make a halfling a familiar, but it's not.
Not as a specific PC, but there are ways of doing similar things. The prototypical one is perhaps The Big Guy Is With Me.
I kept Weapon Finesse in there - I had a feeling I might need it, and have. I've been picking up magical daggers all over the place (+1 CON Poisoning, +1 Wounding), and it comes in handy when I've been caught in melee. I didn't really need Improved Init - I'm already at a +7 for init with all the bonuses my guy's been getting.
It's a shame you probably can't use elvencraft bows, as I suggested last year; that'd be much better than switching between weapons without Quick Draw or some similar effect (i.e. Crystals of Return from the MIC - you mentioned low magic, and these are dirt cheap ways of getting Quick Draw). That said, those are some surprisingly badass daggers for a "low magic" world...
We just hit level 9 - So I've just picked up Manyshot and Greater Manyshot, as was the plan in here. If I've got this right:
Greater Manyshot Attack: Move my speed (30 ft), Fire two arrows (BAB is +8) and apply my skirmish damage to both arrows, seperate attack rolls.
Rapidshot Attack: Fire Three Arrows, or Throw three daggers(?)
If you're level 9 with this build, then Greater Manyshot should all be made with a -4 penalty (i.e. two separate arrows at +8 base, +Dex / +Enhancement, -4), but you've got it right. Rapid Shot is a full round action, meaning you can't move more than a 5' step, and the attacks are made at +6/+6/+1 (add your Dexterity and enhancement on to that). Incidentally, with Rapid Shot, assuming you can freely switch between weapons (daggers are not ammunition, so you can't draw them as a free action!), you could mix and match ranged attacks during that full attack.
Be advised that the Rules Compendium complicates things on this, as it suggests that even with multiple attacks you shouldn't get precision damage on the extra arrows. It's doing an ass pull relative to the rest of the rules, though (and I say this as someone involved in its development who complained about that at the time...).
DM has allowed me to do 2 ranger levels and 1 scout alternating, so a Scout level comes next, where I get the bonus feat. Now that I know I can move and fire multiple arrows with skirmish attached to all of them, the improved skirmish feat looks good for that. If I've got that all right. The only other feat I'm considering is travel devotion, but I'm not sure if it's worth it if I'm focusing more on Manyshot.
Manyshot comes at an intense attack roll penalty. The reason I listed it as a primary for you was because it was a low magic world; in a higher magic setting you can rely on equipment to get free action movement (or use Travel Devotion more frequently). However, your DM seems to have an unusual idea of what "low magic" means, and likes creating customized magic items all willy-nilly.
I figure I'm going to stick with that pattern until I hit Scout 5. The 20 plan would be Ranger 15/Scout 5. At this point the spreadsheet I built only goes to lvl 10, so I'm totally open to any suggestions for Prestige classes.
Swift Hunter makes ranger practically its own prestige class for you.
I'd suggest reading the handbook I linked last year if you haven't already - also, there's two builds in my signature that involve Swift Hunter, one of which (Flip the Bird) might be an interesting read as well (albeit somewhat hard to pull off if your sources are limited).
Not as a specific PC, but there are ways of doing similar things. The prototypical one is perhaps The Big Guy Is With Me.
Being honest, I skimmed that and just shook my head. It was only a joke, and if there was a straight way to do it without feats, it might be funny, but not really worth the mental gymnastics to make it work.
It's a shame you probably can't use elvencraft bows, as I suggested last year; that'd be much better than switching between weapons without Quick Draw or some similar effect (i.e. Crystals of Return from the MIC - you mentioned low magic, and these are dirt cheap ways of getting Quick Draw). That said, those are some surprisingly badass daggers for a "low magic" world...
I probably misrepresented the world like that. The brief history is that because of various abuses of magic, the church fought it, labelled it as evil, and has been the prevalent enforcement for hunting down and eradicating arcane magic use. The enemies to the south are led by a brotherhood of sorcerers (and it's off of some of their middle management I've taken those daggers off of.), and the tree god I follow bestows magical items, and there's a small order of druids in hiding throughout the land. It's not to say there's little magic, jsut that it's not prevalent enough in the realm we're playing in that we can go buy something or have someone build it. The bow was a gift from the tree god, the daggers I found on two seperate assassins.
As far as we know, there aren't any elves. There may be in the time before memory of man, or in a distant land, but other than a variety of monsters, the only sentient races are human, hafling, a smattering of dwarves and dirty, dirty orcs.
If I find I'm switching a lot, I'll probably take Quick Draw as the feat following Improved Skirmish. Really, though, I'm just happy about having a higher ATT on some daggers that do some wicked damage when they hit, even though I'm not very strong.
We just hit level 9 - So I've just picked up Manyshot and Greater Manyshot, as was the plan in here. If I've got this right:Greater Manyshot Attack: Move my speed (30 ft), Fire two arrows (BAB is +8) and apply my skirmish damage to both arrows, seperate attack rolls.
Rapidshot Attack: Fire Three Arrows, or Throw three daggers(?)
If you're level 9 with this build, then Greater Manyshot should all be made with a -4 penalty (i.e. two separate arrows at +8 base, +Dex / +Enhancement, -4), but you've got it right. Rapid Shot is a full round action, meaning you can't move more than a 5' step, and the attacks are made at +6/+6/+1 (add your Dexterity and enhancement on to that). Incidentally, with Rapid Shot, assuming you can freely switch between weapons (daggers are not ammunition, so you can't draw them as a free action!), you could mix and match ranged attacks during that full attack.
I've calculated already for all of the penalties based on what I do. And, I can't freely switch without Quick Draw. So for Rapid shot it's either three daggers thrown or three arrows. I can switch between rounds if I don't take a 5 footer in the round before I switch.
Be advised that the Rules Compendium complicates things on this, as it suggests that even with multiple attacks you shouldn't get precision damage on the extra arrows. It's doing an ass pull relative to the rest of the rules, though (and I say this as someone involved in its development who complained about that at the time...).
On Manyshot or Rapid shot? With Greater Manyshot it specifically says that precision damage applies to each extra arrow. With Rapid shot I can't move the distance I need to apply it (yet), but even then I'm aware it only applies to the first shot.
Or are you talking about manyshotting on the multiple attacks - because if I'm reading the SRD right, I only get my additional attack if I go full attack, so I can ONLY really apply multiple attacks with Rapid shot. So as I understand it, if I move and shoot, I only get one shot. Many shot just gives me more arrows, and Greater Manyshot gives me more damage and targets.
Manyshot comes at an intense attack roll penalty. The reason I listed it as a primary for you was because it was a low magic world; in a higher magic setting you can rely on equipment to get free action movement (or use Travel Devotion more frequently). However, your DM seems to have an unusual idea of what "low magic" means, and likes creating customized magic items all willy-nilly.
As above. I love the build as it is - It's the right flavor, I think. The attack roll penalty isn't a big deal as far as I can tell. Because I'd only be using Manyshot when I'm within thirty feet (because of the move) to do my skirmish damage, it breaks down like this:
BAB: +8
BOW: +2
DEX: +5
Point Blank Shot: +1
Manyshot: -4
So I'm still firing at a +12. It's a sacrifice, but it'll be worth it when I can drop 1d8+3(STR+BOW), +4 for Undead, and 5d6. per shot.
I figure I'm going to stick with that pattern until I hit Scout 5. The 20 plan would be Ranger 15/Scout 5. At this point the spreadsheet I built only goes to lvl 10, so I'm totally open to any suggestions for Prestige classes.
Swift Hunter makes ranger practically its own prestige class for you.
That's what I figured. It was one of the suggestions in the handbook.
I'd suggest reading the handbook I linked last year if you haven't already - also, there's two builds in my signature that involve Swift Hunter, one of which (Flip the Bird) might be an interesting read as well (albeit somewhat hard to pull off if your sources are limited).
Because we're playing in a custom world, the only argument I need to make is that it makes sense in context of the world. If I can justify being able to evolve into it or learning it, I can usually do it. But I wouldn't be able to spontaneously take a sorcerer level, or something like that. I'd have to be an evolution on top of scout or ranger class, or something I could have picked up from another character - like I could probably make an argument for taking druid levels, though I don't think that'll fit with the flavor of my guy.
Thanks for the feeback!
I'd suggest reading the handbook I linked last year if you haven't already - also, there's two builds in my signature that involve Swift Hunter, one of which (Flip the Bird) might be an interesting read as well (albeit somewhat hard to pull off if your sources are limited).
Yeah, I just read through it. I'm almost 100% my DM wouldn't allow me to pull that off. He was upset enough to 'de-power' my bow after I smited his big bad last game. I might get those powers back (1/day smite, 1/day cast entangle), but not soon. He made it the only way we could get off the island we were on - our boat had sank, no allies and no way to send a message. Throw down the bow and the tree god lets us tree walk home, but it 'drained' the bow for a time. I'm going to go back through the handbook and see what's shaking.
Other than a slightly worse BAB and losing the ability to cast higher level Ranger spells, it doesn't seem like much of a loss. I'd be gaining the same special abilities, with additional bonus feats, and I'd actually get 'Hide in Plain Sight' by lvl 20. Some of the abilities I'd get with Scout come sooner than Ranger, and the Swift Hunter feat still grants me favoured enemies if I'm reading the feat right.