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Help with a long-term character

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gthorne_dup
Dec 14, 2008 0:17:31 Hi, I'm new to the CO boards, but I was really looking for some help. We're kind of a characterization-deep group with our own world, dieties, and loads of backstory.

Now, we're thinking of doing our grandest campaign ever. We would start at level 1 and go through level 20 with the same characters, while rotating GMs.

I've come up with a character concept I want to play, and I just want to make sure that the story I want to tell with my character doesn't hinder him in combat.

The stats that we're all starting with are 17 15 15 13 13 11, although one or two points can be shifted around.

This character is the son of a previous character, who was a Paladin (2nd edition). This was a made-up variant of of the Paladin, called a Templar (no relation to the 3.5 Templar). The Templar, in essence, was a Paladin without the mount, and with more Cleric spells and abilities.

This character (his name is Alder) is a half-elf, and begins the game as a hot-headed outsider, who eventually surrenders to his Father's world. So, he would likely start as something other than a Paladin, maybe a fighter. He may begin his Paladin career somewhere between 5th and 10th levels.

There are no XP penalties for multiclassing, any of the WotC books are likely fair game. Magic items would be based on the values set in the DMG.

If you've made it this far in my rambling post, I thank you. Work your magic, CO's!
#2
CantripN
Dec 14, 2008 0:25:55 Couple of ideas:

Prestige Paladin - take 1 or 3 levels to get the good Paladin abilities and all Paladin spells.
Source = Unearthed Arcana / SRD

Silver Pyromancer - it's a 4/5 casting class for arcane casters, that adds Paladin spells to it's spell list, can "Smite Evil" with spells, and is generally awesome. Fluffwise, it's the Paladin order's mages.
Source = Five Nations

An actual Paladin is also possible, but less interesting overall, usually.
#3
gthorne_dup
Dec 14, 2008 1:19:01 I hadn't thought of the prestige paladin. I suppose I could go a few levels of fighter, then a level or two of cleric, then hop into the prestige paladin?

Ok, I said *any* WotC book, but I'm not familiar with Five Nations (we don't have it either). I should have specified none of the setting books (i.e. Eberron, Forgotton Realms). Any of the following are fine:

Core Books
PHB II, DMG II
Any of the "Complete" books
Any "Races of" books
Tome of Battle, Magic
Heroes of Horror, Battle
Unearthed Arcana
#4
bigtony
Dec 14, 2008 1:36:10 You listed Tome of Battle, and that tends to be a nice option when dealing with melee types.

Warblade, both in mechanics and flavor is nice for a "Hot-Headed" fighter type, and the nature of the Initiator Level system means it'll be a bit less jarring if you were to head into the Crusader class, which defiantly has that "Paladin" feel to it.

Of course, if retaining casting is core to your concept, that's workable too. The book has a "Ruby Knight Vindicator" class, that advances divine casting and martial adept abilties. The flavor is very specific and probably won't work with your campaign, but could easily be adapted. It actually has an adaption section that offers some ways to fuss with the abilties and requirements.

All that is a really general statement of course. If you had specific ideas about his fighting style and tactics, It'd be easy to get more specific.
#5
gthorne_dup
Dec 14, 2008 9:06:04 Great! Feels like we're getting closer. I was figuring he'd fight with a greatsword. Divine spellcasting would be nice to separate him from a fighter type. I was thinking I may stay in Fighter long enough to get weapon focus + specialization, and leave about level 5 or 6.
#6
Senevri
Dec 14, 2008 9:27:49 Remember, Warblade Counts as a fighter two levels lower for prerequisites.
A Warblade 4/Fighter 2 could snatch WF at level 5, Specialization at lv 6. And can change the weapon those feats apply to.

You could go Suel Arcanamach 4, on top of that and then enter Divine Champion at 11, for an example. At level... 12 or 13, you qualify for Mystic Theurge. A dip into Contemplative nets you moar DC spells, too.

Alternatively, you could go dipping in Archivist, then progress that with holier classes. Warpriest, Ordained Champion, Holy Warrior nets some crazy combat capabilities on top of that. Still, you miss out on 9th level spells.
#7
vglcat
Dec 14, 2008 9:30:24 ummmm do you maybe wanna switch to cleric instead? or would it kill the backstory......
#8
DeAnno
Dec 14, 2008 11:48:36 I think I see the best way for you to handle this. First, your stats aren't quite good enough to justify a Paladin dip for the save bonus, because at best your Cha would start at 15. I recommend you use Crusader to substitute for Pally, and use:

Fighter 6/Crusader 14
Feats:
1)Endurance
1F)Power Attack
2F)Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape Alternate Class Feature)
3)Steadfast Determination (PHB II)
4F)Improved Bull Rush
6)Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)
6F)Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape Alternate Class Feature)
9)Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer)
12)Extra Granted Maneuver?
15)Cleave?
18)Something Useful

12-18 is more or less whatever, I've just made quick suggestions.

The nice part about this build is if you're in the open, you can Charge with Shock Trooper and deal horrible massive damage. If you're in cramped quarters, Shock Trooper's other Bull rushing abilities combined with Dungeon Crasher let you have fun with Bull Rush. And all the time, you have your pretty good set of Crusader maneuvers. Best of all, the build is more or less mature at 9th level.
As for manuevers and stances, mostly take whatever you think will complement your charging ability and your bull rushing ability, but there are two stances in particular you should get. You need to be Lawful; at Crusader 8 (14 HD) you will gain your 3rd stance, and it should be Aura of Perfect Order. Taking 11 once per turn on anything is extremely helpful, and this build happens to let the third stance be chosen right at the correct time for it. At Crusader 14 (20 HD), take Immortal Fortitude as your 4th stance. Combined with Steadfast Determination and your high Fort save, this makes you hard to kill by anything but one mighty blow.
#9
gthorne_dup
Dec 14, 2008 16:42:30 DeAnno-
That actually sounds pretty close to what I want. I can probably live without the divine spellcasting if he's that much of a combat monster.

I'm not familiar with the Dungeonscape Features, though. What books are they from? What does Dungeon Crasher do?
#10
DeAnno
Dec 14, 2008 18:24:26 Dungeoncrasher does a lot of things actually, its in Dungeonscape (WoTC 3.5)
- +2 Trap Sense (+4 at level 6)
- +5 on Strength check to break doors, walls, similar obstacles (+10 at level 6)
- If you Bull Rush a creature INTO a wall, as usual, he stops, BUT he takes 4d6 + 2x your Strength bonus for being smashed into the wall. (At level 6, he takes 8d6 + 3x your Strength bonus)
- All of these features can be used an unlimited number of times per day.

With a 17 in strength to start, if you put 1 into it at level 4 and get a +2 enhancement Strength item, You're dealing 8d6+15 (~43!) with Dungeon crasher at level 6. And you have a Bull Rush Modifier of +9 to use it with, which is better than most of your medium sized enemies.

EDIT: As is, I'd put stats as
STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 15
INT: 13
WIS: 11
CHA: 13

For point moving priorities, STR is easily the most important, CON is second, DEX a distant third, followed by CHA/INT/WIS. Wis is a total dump stat. If you keep all that Dex, go for Mithral Full Plate so you can use it (or even Mithral Breastplate if you want to get a DEX item and play at 30' speed)
#11
stpetegamer
Dec 14, 2008 18:51:52 how is Wis a bigger dump stat than Cha? I mean from a pure optimization stand point who cares if you are ugly but having any extra help with your will save is helpful...
#12
DeAnno
Dec 14, 2008 19:24:54 Because of Steadfast Determination transferring will to CON. (And in addition, not making a 1 an autofail for fort). Not to mention, as a Crusader, he also gets CHA to will.
#13
stpetegamer
Dec 14, 2008 19:33:09
Because of Steadfast Determination transferring will to CON. (And in addition, not making a 1 an autofail for fort). Not to mention, as a Crusader, he also gets CHA to will.

well that makes sense than
#14
gthorne_dup
Dec 14, 2008 20:12:43 I really like this build.

Why is dungeon crasher listed twice? Does it stack?

If the DM doesn't go for Dungeonscape (or if I can't find a copy), what would you recommend instead of dungeon crasher? Is weapon focus/spec worthwhile during my 6 fighter levels?
#15
Wyvernhand
Dec 14, 2008 23:30:14
Why is dungeon crasher listed twice? Does it stack?

If the DM doesn't go for Dungeonscape (or if I can't find a copy), what would you recommend instead of dungeon crasher? Is weapon focus/spec worthwhile during my 6 fighter levels?

Dungeoncrasher is on there twice, because the 2nd time you take it, it upgrades. DC2 is 2d6 +1.5x str, DC6 is 6d6 +3x str.

If you can't take DC, don't take that many levels of fighter. Plane and simple. More Crusader, or maybe some Warblade for kicks. Probably more Crusader for 9th level maneuvers though. Strike of Righteous Vitality is a free Heal spell every 2-3 rounds with Extra Granted Manuever. REALLY good.
#16
DeAnno
Dec 15, 2008 0:27:07 The thing is, Whatever 6 tends to work pretty well for entering Crusader. This is because it lets you pick up both Aura of Perfect Order and Immortal Fortitude as natural stances, without blowing feats (not that we're really in feat debt, but still, a feat saved is a feat earned). Without Dungeon Crasher, I'd still be tempted to do Fighter 2(picking up improved bull rush at 2)/Something 4/Crusader 14. Being Lawful, I'd suggest you do something CRAZY! Try to sell your DM on Magic of Incarnum, and go Incarnate 4. This only gives you +2 BaB, however, it also gives you two very useful soulmelds (it does however, hedge you into L/N for life):
1A) Bloodwar Gauntlets, with zero points of essentia, give you +1 morale to hit.
2A) Incarnate Avatar, with all 4 of your essentia (not all investible till late levels), gives you +4 insight to hit
Thus, the dip nets you a +3 bonus to hit on all melee attacks, plus all the rest of your Incarnate features.

Other random and moderately interesting things you could do include Fighter+2/Psi Warrior 2 if you want to play around with Psionic/more fighter feats; Rogue 4 for Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Sneak attack +2d6; Monk 1/Something??? 3 to get a natural weapon unarmed strike, allowing you to wield a glaive and have 10 foot inclusive reach (with elbow attacks for 5 foot). There's probably a bunch more wacky stuff you could do with those 4 levels. I personally think that Splat 6/Crusader 14 is inherently stronger than Crusader 20, especially if you don't have to worry about multiclass penalties for your splat collection. Im almost certain its tougher than Splat 2/Crusader 18, which I consider the worst of all evils (At LEAST go Splat 4/Crusader 16 to get good maneuvers at Cru 1).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gthorne_dup Dec 14, 2008 0:17:31	Hi, I'm new to the CO boards, but I was really looking for some help. We're kind of a characterization-deep group with our own world, dieties, and loads of backstory. Now, we're thinking of doing our grandest campaign ever. We would start at level 1 and go through level 20 with the same characters, while rotating GMs. I've come up with a character concept I want to play, and I just want to make sure that the story I want to tell with my character doesn't hinder him in combat. The stats that we're all starting with are 17 15 15 13 13 11, although one or two points can be shifted around. This character is the son of a previous character, who was a Paladin (2nd edition). This was a made-up variant of of the Paladin, called a Templar (no relation to the 3.5 Templar). The Templar, in essence, was a Paladin without the mount, and with more Cleric spells and abilities. This character (his name is Alder) is a half-elf, and begins the game as a hot-headed outsider, who eventually surrenders to his Father's world. So, he would likely start as something other than a Paladin, maybe a fighter. He may begin his Paladin career somewhere between 5th and 10th levels. There are no XP penalties for multiclassing, any of the WotC books are likely fair game. Magic items would be based on the values set in the DMG. If you've made it this far in my rambling post, I thank you. Work your magic, CO's!
#2 CantripN Dec 14, 2008 0:25:55	Couple of ideas: Prestige Paladin - take 1 or 3 levels to get the good Paladin abilities and all Paladin spells. Source = Unearthed Arcana / SRD Silver Pyromancer - it's a 4/5 casting class for arcane casters, that adds Paladin spells to it's spell list, can "Smite Evil" with spells, and is generally awesome. Fluffwise, it's the Paladin order's mages. Source = Five Nations An actual Paladin is also possible, but less interesting overall, usually.
#3 gthorne_dup Dec 14, 2008 1:19:01	I hadn't thought of the prestige paladin. I suppose I could go a few levels of fighter, then a level or two of cleric, then hop into the prestige paladin? Ok, I said any WotC book, but I'm not familiar with Five Nations (we don't have it either). I should have specified none of the setting books (i.e. Eberron, Forgotton Realms). Any of the following are fine: Core Books PHB II, DMG II Any of the "Complete" books Any "Races of" books Tome of Battle, Magic Heroes of Horror, Battle Unearthed Arcana
#4 bigtony Dec 14, 2008 1:36:10	You listed Tome of Battle, and that tends to be a nice option when dealing with melee types. Warblade, both in mechanics and flavor is nice for a "Hot-Headed" fighter type, and the nature of the Initiator Level system means it'll be a bit less jarring if you were to head into the Crusader class, which defiantly has that "Paladin" feel to it. Of course, if retaining casting is core to your concept, that's workable too. The book has a "Ruby Knight Vindicator" class, that advances divine casting and martial adept abilties. The flavor is very specific and probably won't work with your campaign, but could easily be adapted. It actually has an adaption section that offers some ways to fuss with the abilties and requirements. All that is a really general statement of course. If you had specific ideas about his fighting style and tactics, It'd be easy to get more specific.
#5 gthorne_dup Dec 14, 2008 9:06:04	Great! Feels like we're getting closer. I was figuring he'd fight with a greatsword. Divine spellcasting would be nice to separate him from a fighter type. I was thinking I may stay in Fighter long enough to get weapon focus + specialization, and leave about level 5 or 6.
#6 Senevri Dec 14, 2008 9:27:49	Remember, Warblade Counts as a fighter two levels lower for prerequisites. A Warblade 4/Fighter 2 could snatch WF at level 5, Specialization at lv 6. And can change the weapon those feats apply to. You could go Suel Arcanamach 4, on top of that and then enter Divine Champion at 11, for an example. At level... 12 or 13, you qualify for Mystic Theurge. A dip into Contemplative nets you moar DC spells, too. Alternatively, you could go dipping in Archivist, then progress that with holier classes. Warpriest, Ordained Champion, Holy Warrior nets some crazy combat capabilities on top of that. Still, you miss out on 9th level spells.
#7 vglcat Dec 14, 2008 9:30:24	ummmm do you maybe wanna switch to cleric instead? or would it kill the backstory......
#8 DeAnno Dec 14, 2008 11:48:36	I think I see the best way for you to handle this. First, your stats aren't quite good enough to justify a Paladin dip for the save bonus, because at best your Cha would start at 15. I recommend you use Crusader to substitute for Pally, and use: Fighter 6/Crusader 14 Feats: 1)Endurance 1F)Power Attack 2F)Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape Alternate Class Feature) 3)Steadfast Determination (PHB II) 4F)Improved Bull Rush 6)Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior) 6F)Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape Alternate Class Feature) 9)Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer) 12)Extra Granted Maneuver? 15)Cleave? 18)Something Useful 12-18 is more or less whatever, I've just made quick suggestions. The nice part about this build is if you're in the open, you can Charge with Shock Trooper and deal horrible massive damage. If you're in cramped quarters, Shock Trooper's other Bull rushing abilities combined with Dungeon Crasher let you have fun with Bull Rush. And all the time, you have your pretty good set of Crusader maneuvers. Best of all, the build is more or less mature at 9th level. As for manuevers and stances, mostly take whatever you think will complement your charging ability and your bull rushing ability, but there are two stances in particular you should get. You need to be Lawful; at Crusader 8 (14 HD) you will gain your 3rd stance, and it should be Aura of Perfect Order. Taking 11 once per turn on anything is extremely helpful, and this build happens to let the third stance be chosen right at the correct time for it. At Crusader 14 (20 HD), take Immortal Fortitude as your 4th stance. Combined with Steadfast Determination and your high Fort save, this makes you hard to kill by anything but one mighty blow.
#9 gthorne_dup Dec 14, 2008 16:42:30	DeAnno- That actually sounds pretty close to what I want. I can probably live without the divine spellcasting if he's that much of a combat monster. I'm not familiar with the Dungeonscape Features, though. What books are they from? What does Dungeon Crasher do?
#10 DeAnno Dec 14, 2008 18:24:26	Dungeoncrasher does a lot of things actually, its in Dungeonscape (WoTC 3.5) - +2 Trap Sense (+4 at level 6) - +5 on Strength check to break doors, walls, similar obstacles (+10 at level 6) - If you Bull Rush a creature INTO a wall, as usual, he stops, BUT he takes 4d6 + 2x your Strength bonus for being smashed into the wall. (At level 6, he takes 8d6 + 3x your Strength bonus) - All of these features can be used an unlimited number of times per day. With a 17 in strength to start, if you put 1 into it at level 4 and get a +2 enhancement Strength item, You're dealing 8d6+15 (~43!) with Dungeon crasher at level 6. And you have a Bull Rush Modifier of +9 to use it with, which is better than most of your medium sized enemies. EDIT: As is, I'd put stats as STR: 17 DEX: 15 CON: 15 INT: 13 WIS: 11 CHA: 13 For point moving priorities, STR is easily the most important, CON is second, DEX a distant third, followed by CHA/INT/WIS. Wis is a total dump stat. If you keep all that Dex, go for Mithral Full Plate so you can use it (or even Mithral Breastplate if you want to get a DEX item and play at 30' speed)
#11 stpetegamer Dec 14, 2008 18:51:52	how is Wis a bigger dump stat than Cha? I mean from a pure optimization stand point who cares if you are ugly but having any extra help with your will save is helpful...
#12 DeAnno Dec 14, 2008 19:24:54	Because of Steadfast Determination transferring will to CON. (And in addition, not making a 1 an autofail for fort). Not to mention, as a Crusader, he also gets CHA to will.
#13 stpetegamer Dec 14, 2008 19:33:09	Because of Steadfast Determination transferring will to CON. (And in addition, not making a 1 an autofail for fort). Not to mention, as a Crusader, he also gets CHA to will. well that makes sense than
#14 gthorne_dup Dec 14, 2008 20:12:43	I really like this build. Why is dungeon crasher listed twice? Does it stack? If the DM doesn't go for Dungeonscape (or if I can't find a copy), what would you recommend instead of dungeon crasher? Is weapon focus/spec worthwhile during my 6 fighter levels?
#15 Wyvernhand Dec 14, 2008 23:30:14	Why is dungeon crasher listed twice? Does it stack? If the DM doesn't go for Dungeonscape (or if I can't find a copy), what would you recommend instead of dungeon crasher? Is weapon focus/spec worthwhile during my 6 fighter levels? Dungeoncrasher is on there twice, because the 2nd time you take it, it upgrades. DC2 is 2d6 +1.5x str, DC6 is 6d6 +3x str. If you can't take DC, don't take that many levels of fighter. Plane and simple. More Crusader, or maybe some Warblade for kicks. Probably more Crusader for 9th level maneuvers though. Strike of Righteous Vitality is a free Heal spell every 2-3 rounds with Extra Granted Manuever. REALLY good.
#16 DeAnno Dec 15, 2008 0:27:07	The thing is, Whatever 6 tends to work pretty well for entering Crusader. This is because it lets you pick up both Aura of Perfect Order and Immortal Fortitude as natural stances, without blowing feats (not that we're really in feat debt, but still, a feat saved is a feat earned). Without Dungeon Crasher, I'd still be tempted to do Fighter 2(picking up improved bull rush at 2)/Something 4/Crusader 14. Being Lawful, I'd suggest you do something CRAZY! Try to sell your DM on Magic of Incarnum, and go Incarnate 4. This only gives you +2 BaB, however, it also gives you two very useful soulmelds (it does however, hedge you into L/N for life): 1A) Bloodwar Gauntlets, with zero points of essentia, give you +1 morale to hit. 2A) Incarnate Avatar, with all 4 of your essentia (not all investible till late levels), gives you +4 insight to hit Thus, the dip nets you a +3 bonus to hit on all melee attacks, plus all the rest of your Incarnate features. Other random and moderately interesting things you could do include Fighter+2/Psi Warrior 2 if you want to play around with Psionic/more fighter feats; Rogue 4 for Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Sneak attack +2d6; Monk 1/Something??? 3 to get a natural weapon unarmed strike, allowing you to wield a glaive and have 10 foot inclusive reach (with elbow attacks for 5 foot). There's probably a bunch more wacky stuff you could do with those 4 levels. I personally think that Splat 6/Crusader 14 is inherently stronger than Crusader 20, especially if you don't have to worry about multiclass penalties for your splat collection. Im almost certain its tougher than Splat 2/Crusader 18, which I consider the worst of all evils (At LEAST go Splat 4/Crusader 16 to get good maneuvers at Cru 1).